IAP Political Forum

Do you think that our values as a growing population (in the body of land known as the United States) are eroding as we become desensetized to certain things through the vast branches of the media in this connected information age? And what specifically do you think is causing this (advertisements, televisions shows, movies, etc)? Also, do you think laws should be enacted to control information more or less? Do you think it will come to that in the future?

No. We don't need not another law controlling information or regulating TV.

I don't think its that bad, but then again my generation has been exposed to this stuff since birth...so we don't even notice.

2112$, that sounds like an essay question. Anyway, I guess we can take it piece by piece.

"Do you think that our values as a growing population (in the body of land known as the United States) are eroding as we become desensetized to certain things through the vast branches of the media in this connected information age?"

Like what? Murder? Has "Law & Order" decensitized us toward violence? No. I just think it's taught us the difference between real and fantasy. Beating your wife or killing your child or murdering your boss are all still horible things (well, maybe not the last one ;) ) and violent media programs haven't thickened our skin towards them at all.

"And what specifically do you think is causing this (advertisements, televisions shows, movies, etc)?"

I think it's just the growth of our country. We're maturing as a civilizaton, but we're not losing our values.

Murder is still bad. Disrespecting your elders is still bad. Sleeping around is still bad.

But you would be stupid if you think these things didn't happen back then when our morals were "better". And when they happen now, they are still regarded as imoral.

"Also, do you think laws should be enacted to control information more or less?"

No... not a shot in hell.

I'm with mic on this. Laws should not be made to control the flow of information and entertainment.

"Do you think it will come to that in the future?"

Depends on who this country puts in the big chair.

If neo's right, which I think he is, our generation has grown up on this stuff and we deal with it better. We've grown up with computers and the internet and cell phones and this vast expansion in personal technology.

Once our generation starts hitting the work place en masse, I doubt laws will be written to govern the media.

"I think there ought to be some serious discussion by smart people, really smart people, about whether or not proliferation of things like The Smoking Gun and TMZ and YouTube and the whole celebrity culture is healthy. We've switched from a culture that was interested in manufacturing, economics, politics — trying to play a serious part in the world — to a culture that's really entertainment-based. I mean, I know people who can tell you who won the last four seasons on American Idol and they don't know who their f------ Representatives are."

                                                                     ---Stephen King, Nov 23, 2007

Superchicken has the right idea.

I think that there are too many distractions today, and it's only going to get worse. So I'm wondering if or when there will be regulation to protect the young and impressionable from all of the distorted 'noise' we have going on all around us. And I mean desensitized to standards of dress, appropriate actions (ranging from etiquette to control over one's own impulses) and danger zones in general.

There does need to be regulation.


















And the parents need to do the regulating on what their kids watch and when. Government involvement in this is a big no-no.

I was all set to disagree with Mic, then I scrolled down.  I have zero interest in some government entity telling me what they think is decent or not.  I will and always have policed my kids viewing habits myself.

I just won't have kids, that way I won't have to police them. I just have to police myself should someone discover the porno stash on my computer.

If you are of age, and the porn actors are too, who cares?

I don't get it. I don't know ANYONE who cares about Brittney Spears and her children... or Lindsay Lohan and her drug abuse. An update, sure, but 24-hour news survailence?

Why do they report on it? I really don't know anyone who would watch 3 days of this crap.

But they keep doing it - so there must be a market in it.

I just don't get it. But yeah, mic's right. Leave regulation to the parents and keep government out of it.

It doesn't have to be government regulation. It could be a political uprising of support for all things decent.

It seems that despite the best efforts by the best of parents, children are still exposed to some sick stuff constantly. To an adult who has made up their minds about what is right and wrong, and what is fluff and what is important, it's nothing. But to a naive child, how can they possibly navagate through all of the distractions.

There doesn't need to be anything political about it. Period.

Why so quick to make up your mind, Mic?

And who gets to decide 'decent'?  That is my issue.  I decide for my kids.  Everybody else feel free to do the same for your own. 

Exactly.

My parents' definition for "decent" may be different then yours, but I grew up just fine.

What's to say we need government defining what "good" and "bad" are? Chances are good they're wrong anyway.

I mean, who wants to take charecter lessons from Senators and Congressmen who commit indecent acts EVERYDAY?

Because if I'm not quick the government will make it up for me.

  What kids don't realize is how things were before they were born.  Injustices, the poverty level, preemptive war, desperation, the homeless, the cost of fines and parking tickets, The ambient noise levels, the constant barrage of advertisements, inflation, the meaner and leaner America....This is normal to them because they have never known the World to be any other way.  The worse the economy gets the meaner and more desperate people become...People who have enough money are much more decent then people who do not have enough money.  The level of moral decay is proportionate to the level of prosperity.

Kids don't realize a great many things.  How does that affect this discussion?

I think that corporate marketing is the evil here.  We have been instilled with values to buy, buy, buy, useless crap we never even needed, that is parasitic to the home we live in, ruins our mental health with disastrous unrealistic expectations, feeds us crap that is detrimental to our physical health, where PR is not a board in a forum but a scapegoat for when things in the public go wrong like when the government tries to intervene or worse, the consumers themselves.  And this is the biggy...

Making us believe in things that don't really matter, are fucking trivial and have nothing to do with whats important in this world today.  They have made us become obese, stupid, selfish, depressed automatons that never have the decency to realize that everything they have ever wanted in their life is bullshit and don't realize that the most important things are right in front of their face; like family, community, country and themselves.

FUCK corporate marketers and their disastrous effect on American decency.  This country died when the first commercial was aired.

"You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fucking khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world."

- Tyler Durden

 :laugh:

"The things you own end up owning you."

I think the question is a little vague, but still I'm tossing in my two cents:

I'm a firm believer that our "traditional values" went out the window in the 1960's when it was all "free love and expressing individuality."  It was the baby boomers that have the greatest impact on the deconstruction of our "society."  They currently are the largest population and wield the most wealth and power.  The BBs are just now hitting retirement age, but that doesn't mean that their influence through the polls won't be felt.  They are the ones in control. Take for example the pressing restrictions on the video game industry, there are lobbyist trying to prevent the censorship of games: arguing against the fact that it violates the first amendment. It's the simple idea of "pushing the envelope."  People are constantly trying to out-perform, out-sell, or create controversy;  whatever  it takes the make the green, right?

Capitalism, freedom, and serving ourself interests; isn't that whats it's all about?  Down with censorship!  I'm tired of people trying to feed me what to think.  Give me the info, and I'll come to my conclusions.  That's whats wrong with people, they don't know how to think anymore. 

You sir,  need calm down.

Ads, commercials, and the subtle ways they're trying to sell you the product is an art.  The masses are stupid drones; accept it.  They don't care, actually some of them very well prefer it.  I mean after all this nation is about capital, and the act of acquiring capital requires buying in order to sell, with goals of creating surplus value or income, right?  They buy ad space and time on TV to sell you stuff.  You buy and sell yourself. <-- (The fundamental theory of exchange, both parties are better of eh?  LOL)

I think both Gojira and Pink Ticking Clocks are correct. Advertising is an art form, but one that works so well in some cases that it makes people buy things they do not need. I even think that it instills incorrect values in children and other consumers. Some people get a high when they shop, children are probably more prone to getting a high when they receive a new toy, and that trains them for the rest of their life to feel good when they get/buy something new.

  Kid today, morally deficient adult tomorrow.

If that were the case, I would think that we would have bottomed out around the time of the great depression. Is that the case?

Has this country ever been more prosperous than we are today? If so, when?

Um, no.  Because many people who are subjected to these advertising campaigns don't even know it.  And that completely violates the rule of your fundamental theory of exchange: one party profits while the other has no clue why a Gillette shaver is better than the other.   
It's one thing if they are a learned consumer, but advertising usually distorts the facts and consumers go with that anyway so that then end up duped and taken advantage of.  It seems so infantile to argue whether its bad or not because it seems so harmless but most people are not voluntarily purchasing products because Corporate Marketers have done great jobs of finding who you are, knowing who you are, what you exactly want and what you want to hear and will package it in a way that will make you buy it, without any information regarding whether or not you need the product, just that your life will be better with it. 

AND YOU HAVE NO CLUE THAT THE PRODUCTS YOU PURCHASE IN THE FIRST PLACE A DIRECT CAUSE OF WHAT MARKETERS KNEW ABOUT YOU THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW THEY KNEW ABOUT YOU AND ENDED UP PROFITING FROM IT.

It's called asymmetrical information and the number one reason why free markets are a myth.  Look it up.

What?



Of course there will always be an agent problem, it's all fuel by self interests.  Marketers are just doing their job, creating markets to sell products.  Some consumers are knowledgeable when it comes to ads and products, that's why its called "shopping."  There is a difference between "needs" and "wants" and when you begin to categorize thats when people pull out that "subjective" crap. You cannot prevent or stop the exploitation of consumers, laborers, whatever; and thats where Marx was wrong.  Right?

  I think we are living beyond our means now and it cannot last.  Having lots of money in your savings account does you no good when it is subject to confiscation through inflation.  History has shown you cannot pour trillions of fiat dollars into any economy without it eventually coming back to haunt you in the form of runaway inflation or devaluation.  Either way, we lose.  So, yes, we are more prosperous now because of many factors revolving around Dollar hegemony and the petro-dollar, but when that ends, and it will end, we will be forced to deal with a currency that is only worth the paper its printed on.

When was there decency?

In early colonial America, colonists were forced to go to church. I read somewhere, don't remember where, that a study was done on these puritans and by studying marriage and birth records it was learned that a large percentage fo women must have been pregnant when they got married.

Later, the colonists became a nation and they helped cleanse this new land of American indians. After the Civil war, the cleansing continued, killing many women and children, just because they had red skin.

Decency. Yeah right. Was there decency during the roaring 20's?

Maybe it was the 1950's that people long for. When Richie Cunningham and Ralph Malph were learning about sex from Fonzie. We had decency on t.v. and on the radio with wholesome shows, but were the people decent?

I guess it depends on how you define "decency."

I am sick of how the media has seemed to stop policing itself, but government regulation is not the answer.

I have heard Opie and Anthony talking about their Mule more times than I care to admit.

I see sitcoms that totally revolve around sex. We have shows like 7th heaven, which started out wholesome, for one season, but then became centered around sex, since this is what it takes to get ratings. Our society has become obsesssed with sex and celebrities.

When the final report came out on Monica Lewinsky and the cigar, how many people went online to read about it?

Sickening.

The media reflects society and this society is not very decent. I am not sure we ever were, but we used to hide it a lot better than we do today. In my opinion, government regulation is not the answer.

Not when they rise up against the capitalistic oppressors.

Want to end exploitation? Put resources into education. 

The communist manifesto -- the common sense of the Bolshevik revolution --  was a pamphlet to educate the proletariat to rise up and reclaim their dignity. 

Either way, education is the only way to end the shackles that Corporate America has on our liberty.  Because as long as we don't acknowledge it we will continue to live the self-destructive lifestyle that they promote.

Heh. Government regulation is not the answer.  I don't know where you were going with that.

But yeah.  Lets just realize that humans are just not decent animals.  Then we can accept our fallacies and enjoy the true pleasures of life; like fucking, farting, spitting, laughing obnoxiously and dirty jokes.

To me, like you said, is America.  And I damn well love the freedom to support it.  If you want decency, go to Japan.  Being indecent will cause one to gut themselves.

  Yes, we are animals.  With instincts implanted in our DNA.  But, we are supposed to be more civilized then before, but we are not.  Decency is relative but at its base form it should involve fairness and mutual respect where respect is due.  At the very least we should demonstrate common courtesy and humanity towards others, but I think that is changing for the worse, or perhaps we are just reverting.   Perhaps like everything else in our World, its just cycling, like the climate.  In America the President acts like a bully and, all of a sudden, being a bully has become almost an acceptable practice.  Cops pull you over and act rude and domineering, have they just watched to many episodes of "cops", or is this a natural cycle of human temperament? 

Oh.  It's not about the manifesto its about VALUE.  The value the laborer brings, the value of money, and the value you believe to be getting from the product.  It is not the capitalistic oppressors, it's the competition, the invisible hand that seems to smack the sense out of you when a awesome new super fantastic product is released.

I do agree with your bit about education, it seems to work for the Nordic countries. There the corporations pool a small percentage of profits to reinvest in pure public goods like their schools to maintain human capital.  However, I don't believe that it would work here, the way our economy seems to be comprised is that, it's all about services, high turnover, and cheap products; whereas the Nordic countries produce luxury goods. 

Common courtesy is dying. As a form of decency, it is sad how courtesy has taken a back seat in our hurried lives.

I remember as a kid, we would be in line at the grocery store and a new register would open up. The majoirty of the time people behind us would let us go ahead of them at the new register, since we were ahead of them. Now, you see people almost get trampled as people fight to be first in line. I notice less courtesy on the raod driving as well. Less courtesy in restaurants, retail stores, etc.

We have become obsessed with time and schedules. Have to go here, do this, then pick up the kids, the dry cleaning, go the bank and then go home and cook dinner. It is a hectic world, most families have both parents working or the only parent works, thus making time the most valuable of all comodities. I guess common courtesy is a casualty of these hectic lifestyles.

I haven't read most of the responses, but can somebody explain to me the "standards of decency"?

Decency means the golden rule. Do unto others what you would have them do unto you.

That means, do not murder, torture, molest, or anything that you would not want done to you. And if you do want any of those done to you, then you need to ask for help.

Yep.  We have no respect for one another.  I feel that it's just the way our culture is and a lot of what the western civilizations are centered on is the individual instead of the community.  Everyone walks around with their elitist attitudes like their shit don't stink; but seriously people need a lesson in humility. 

As for the murder bit, did you hear about Manhunt2 for the Nintendo Wii, and how as your playing the game you semi-imtate the murders.  THAT'S INSANE!  Then again should we censor video games? 

On that definition, I don't think we were any indecent than we were before.  In fact, we probably are much better off than we are today. 

The only reason we find these things more apparent today is that they are better measured and tracked.

I think that taking your agressions about your life is much better being taken out on a video game rather than actually going through with it.  Because back in the day, there was no golden years.  Life sucked.   Today is the best it has ever gotten and will only see it get better.

Do not let the extraneous circumstances let us down, man kind has come a long way, including America.

  This may sound absurd, but legalize concealed carry nation wide and you wont believe how courteous people on the street will become.

Didn't they say that a kind society is an armed one....or something like that?

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein