IAP Political Forum

In my humanities class we were having a discussion about fixing the school systems in Baltimore, because Bush came up here yesterday. One of the students said that we should just pay parents the first 5 years before their kids go to school.

Why should we pay parents for that? They have jobs don't they?

Can you elaborate on this? What problem is it meant to fix?

The education problem with the schools. See, they said that if they paid parents for the first five years before the kids started school then it might prepare them for school later on.

Yeah I know, it didn't make sense to me either.

I think the student making the comment was probably from the entitlement group.  He says the government should pay for five years...  I liked your comment about parents having jobs. that should have settled it right there.

My kids went to public schools, too.  They also heard lots of inane comments from students and from teachers.  There were two main things that they learned.  How to think for themselves and how to get along with people that they do not like. 

Sounds like you are on the right track.

Did you know that the US and Switzerland both spend about $11K per student per year?  I think that the problem is the educrats and that we should give the parents more say in how that money is spent.  Do you think your folks would pay $11K for something that did not work?  Problem is that the schools are not accountable to the parents or anyone else for the educations that they turn out.

Oh yea and there was another part: my teacher asked what would we rather have for education, the school getting hundreds of thousands of dollars to revive old schools and get better resources OR give the parents vouchers so they could figure things out?

Well, vouchers work for me.  Of course, I am also for people solving their own problems.  Vouchers lets you vote with your feet, so to speak.

And the thing about using the money to rebuild the schools is no one knows how long that could take. I mean, sure you're getting better teachers, books, desks and whatnot but what about the kids?

You're not necessarily getting better teachers or better books.  A pretty building does not an educated citizen make.  For years I've seen politicians throw money at problems and hope that they would go away.  That's kind of like putting fertilizer on weeds.  they just grow bigger and stronger. 

There are some problems with education and they do need to be fixed.  Building a bigger bureaucracy is not the solution.

Do they really work in practice?  http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=678202

Firstly, many schools experience problems because of a lack of sufficient funding, so money is very much an issue. In addition to this, providing schools with better resources and programs helps to motivate students.

Bureaucracy is not the problem. A citizenry that is fearful of government is.

The US spends $11,000/yr/student......is needing more money really the problem?....or is it the fact it is a government bureaucracy that spends money the same way as every other government entity....carelessly, needlessly, indiscriminantly and as if it comes from a bottomless pit.

No it shouldn't: the comment was stupid. Not everyone can just get a job - only when there are exactly enough jobs for everyone, which isn't always the case.

This mythology of inevitable governmental incompetence is certainly entertaining, but frankly between facilities, teacher salaries, textbooks, necessary technology, and materials the money goes very quickly.  Education is money intensive, but it's cheaper than political and economic consequences of the alternatives.

Wiglaf:  It ain't a myth but I am glad you are entertained.  I am not saying that government is automatically bad or does a poor job on everything.  I am saying that government is not the solution to most of our problems.  Come on, who knows better how to take care of you; you or some bureaucrat in the capital?  Besides if the government is so good a fixing problems why are they giving us cash to help jolt the economy instead of simply not borrowing more money to give to us in the first place?  (OK, not school specific but it does demonstrate the principal.)  Teachers are highly trained professionals and should be paid well' the problem is that they don't get the money in their paychecks or classrooms.  That's what I see when I volunteer in the classroom.  I cannot see throwing money away in things like bilingual education, ADA facilities that no one will use, or limiting volunteers in classrooms to protect union jobs.  I have seen kids educated in Spanish and after graduating not being able to find any job except the bottom of the barrel, ADA requirements tripling the cost of construction projects when there were no disabled students in the school and, mothers of students being told that they could not volunteer in the classroom because of union jobs.  So I don't have much respect for educrats or their policies.

Gommi:  How much should we pay to get the schools that you say we need?  Are you sure that $11K per student/year won't do the job?

IamMe:  Now, I am an American and I cannot speak to things in Ireland.  However, I have had many jobs in my life and I could always find work when I wanted it.  Not the best job or the best paying job but it was work.  Once, I had to take a job for 30% less pay.  Most recently I lost a job in September and had a new one by November.  Same skill level and salary.  Conditions do not have to be perfect for people to earn a living.  Its tough, that's why its called work. 

Micfrank:  You're learning how to figure this stuff out for yourself.  Good on you.  In the end that is the only thing that works, anyway.  You started a great discussion with a simple question.  Keep it up.

Let's not even get started on colleges and universities.....

I agree, but so far I fail to see the application here.To say that government used well can help us solve certain problems isn't the same as saying that it will solve most or all of our problems.  Personally I'd look more toward better adherence to sound religious principles than to government for that.This money to the classroom problem depends a great deal on the school or district, but sure, as a teacher I'd like to see more too.  One reason this doesn't occur is that many well-intentioned reforms (such as NCLB) require administrative time to ensure compliance (without it we're talking lawsuits, loss of funding, prosecution, etc.), time which can create more need for administration than would otherwise be necessary.Here is where I have to disagree with you.  Many people misunderstand bilingual education and its purpose.  However, given what I know of language learning(I am an English teacher) it is sound in its research base.  Knowledge of another language helps you to learn a second and many skills are readily transferable to their second language, English.  The trouble is that there are far too few qualified teachers to implement it correctly everywhere(qualified math and science teachers are common by comparison) and that if a student comes into our system late in the game (say 7th or 8th grade) getting up to something like a 6th grade English proficiency by the time they are in high school still means they are at a disadvantage.  I don't claim it to be perfect, but it does have better results than the alternative.

ADA requirements are quite reasonable, because you aren't constructing the building for all who are at the school now, but all who will come in the future.  It's hard enough to have such disabilities without being socially isolated from the local community because the school excludes you and you've got to attend a school across town or 50 miles away.  Yes there have been significant initial costs, but when incorporated within new building plans the costs are quite nominal.  The major costs have been in adding such features to existing campuses, a cost which is obviously declining due to various schools' prior actions to come into compliance.

As for the union thing, I think I'd have to know what sort of volunteer jobs they even wanted to do before I'd feel that I could respond adequately.

Well in Ireland there was massive unemployment right up 'till the 90s when the EU spent loads of money dragging us out of the third world.

But it often happens that there are small job deficits in any country. Its simple if there are X people and Y jobs and Y<X then some people physically cannot get a job. It often happens during recessions.