IAP Political Forum

What's worse, moraly, but also from a social perspective: Pornography (the commerce of movies, pictures etc) or Prostitution (the commerce of a sexual act)?

Please post your opinion here.
For me the answer is not obvious.
I will write more about it, but first I would like to see a few comments.

I have no moral qualms with either.

Prositution, because it isn't free and available to everyone.

Yea, a tough one.   Both devalue human sexuality.   Both however serve a purpose for the sexual inadequte or 'disadvantaged'.   I think on balance I would feel more anti-pornography, since it is more pervasive and creates a rather sad and seedy view of sexuality, that engenders a commoditisation of people.  I don't think that prostitution has the same effect - sure some inadequates may see sex-workers as objects, but I guess that many clients don't.  There is some sort of human relationship there that seems missing in porn....

But I'm unsure of just how much I condemn them.

One is bad as the other they are both wrong.

Do you nhave any reasoning for your opinion? 

My own personal religious beliefs bring me to that conclusion.

The fact you cannot walk into your dignified and professional place of work.....a place seen with respect, duty, honor and service.....and proclaim a desire or support for either one speaks volumes in itself.

shame      /ʃeɪm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sheym] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, shamed, sham·ing.
–noun
1.   the painful feeling arising from the consciousness of something dishonorable, improper, ridiculous, etc., done by oneself or another: She was overcome with shame.

Sorry, Patton, I don't see what you are trying to say. Is it that open discussion of either is a social taboo, therefore both are equally immoral?   I am not sure that is a very sound line of argument.  People couldn't display tattoos, declare themselves homosexual, admit to atheism, etc until recently (even now atheism is 'shameful'  LOL).

In a spirit of open-ness let me say that I have never used the services of a prostitute, but I have had loveless sex, just for the sake/need of it.  I have bought and 'used' pornography in a situation where I did not want to compromise a relationship by 'unfaithfulness' (even though there would not have been any emotion involved).  I don't feel any shame discussing it here - although a desire for privacy would stop me being as open in say the family - where people's sensibilities would need respecting.  The same may be said of my place of work.

Mr Murphy, this is a discussion board.  Your track record here does no give you the credibility of an authority - indeed you may have noticed that no-one here escapes a critical examination of there asseverations.   

My convictions bring me to the conclusion that you are phenomenally mistaken.  Are you satisfied with that as an argument? If you are, I suggest that you may be posting on the wrong board.

Seriously. Anyone who thinks badly towards either needs a long hard look at the mirror.

To be honest, I don't see a very big difference between prostitution, pornography, and other lines of work.

For me, I can't help but feel a little shame every morning when I walk into work to make maps. I have this feeling that I'm prostituting my mind out, which to a great degree is true despite the fact that I'm working on projects that I want very much to see happen. It would be a bit sad for me to pass judgment on a stripper for doing the same thing - putting their assets (mental and physical) out for hire.


The problem with prostitution and pornography, IMO, is exploitation. This is more or less a constant factor any time money is involved.

Ok, here is why I ask the question: Prostitution always existed and was always moreless accepted if not a legal activity while pronography practicaly inexistant. In the Middle Age prostitution was an accepted practice even if moraly condemned. There was officialy 40 prostitutes for 1000 inhabitants in west european cities. This was huge by comparision to today in the same regions. But no one dared producing articraft openly pornographical. Masturbation was sin much worse than having a prostitute.

I wondered why. But it makes sens. Today more than ever.

Pornography is reaching out to much more poeple than prostitution, thus have a much bigger impact on society.
It's cheap and you can find it everywhere. For real sex, you need to move a little bit more and, even more difficult find somebody to your taste.

Pornography also allows the exhibition of fantasms and situations much more difficult to realise in reality with real poeple. Or requires from the sexworker more degradating acts and less protection than a normal prostituted intercourse would. Prostituted intercourse are most of the time the same, based on local habits while pornography is virtualy without boundaries.

Not only pornography is affecting many more poeple, but it affects them with images much more sick and perverse than what a prostitute would do.
I'm not saying prostitution is good. No it's also bad and in its modern form, often sordid, frustrating and degradating for both the worker and the client.
What I'm saying is that pronography have more devastating effect on the minds than prostitution due to its larger audiance, cheap access, ubiquity and especialy perverse nature.

And we are raising a generation of young men with these images in mind........

These are the leaders of tomorrow.

ohh noo! A generation that is not shamefull of sex. What will we ever do!

Evolve.

Why can't one?  The concept of dignified and professional is rooted in each persons convictions and choices.  Simply because one person, or even multiple people, find it unimaginable, does not make it so.  To me this is one of our current lacks as a society.  The fundamental belief that because we hold a view, everybody else probably does also.  It just is not necessarily true. 

This turning into a good thread (kiss of death!).   

I think Fred and I are amazingly on the same track.   Pornography is more pernicious and pervasive, mainly because it affects our relationships with a broad class of people i.e. the whole object class of our sexuality.  Prostitution affects our relationships with a narrow class - i.e. the supplier of services.   The effects are those of dehumanisation and objectification.  These are generally considered undesirable views to hold of our fellow humans.  And therefore society calls into action one of its correction mechanisms - shame.  Biker is right in saying that this relies on a feeling of similarity - if you don't think like us you are "outside" the group.  This is interesting because it has a very claose connection with attitudes to proz'n'porn. Outsidership is generally not a pleasant feeling - which is precisely what dehumanisation and objectification are all about.   If you exclude the subjects of pictures/tales or the worker satisfying (hopefully) your needs from your normal relations with people, the you too will be excluded from society in a similar way.   

And of course there is the counter mechanism of compassion, in two ways that I can immediately think of.... Firstly, one may feel sorry for someone whose normal sexual affairs are such that they need recourse to proz'n'porn, and given the circumstances may be inclined to moderate the condemnation.  Secondly, we may feel compassion towards the workers involved.  Despite the seductions of the porn industry, I get the impression that prostitution is not the sort of occupation that many people would engage in if some other were available.  And seeing for example the 'playmates' of Hugh Heffner doesn't exactly convince me that they have made the most of their human gifts and abilities.

This last point of course broadens the topic into what do we consider to be 'right' in peoples activities.  I have obviously suggested that human flourishing at an individual level is a primary criterion.  Some may propose that the values that we as a culture use to measure this are themselves to be set aside and that simply satisfying our own inward-looking desires should be the 'touchstone'.  This I think does not work in the case of p&p, since not even the most dyed in the wool libertarian would go for 'individualism' without something like the Harm Principle (Mill's 'do what you like EXCEPT cause harm to another').   The compassion mechanism prompts us to note that by making a market for sex-related activity we are preying on the survival needs of underclasses, and preventing them developping in other more self fulfilling ways.    Even if we go 'up market' to Playboy or high-class hookers, where the glossy propaganda is that 'they could be anything - this girl is a qualified cancer surgeon - but they CHOOSE to do this' or 'look how much MONEY they make', I suggest that the subjects are still wasting their abilities..... 

I really think people look way to deeply into this. It's about getting off, which has kept people sane since the beginning of time. None of this is new, it's always been that way. It's really that simple.

Well sure. And while you're about it so is incest, rape, paedophilia, etc.   No problem, just let it happen then.

Rape and anything involving kids is committing a crime. It's harmful.

Incest, while extremely muffed, shouldn't be illegal.

Then why don't Nuerosurgeons, Judges, Mayors mayors and Senators do so?

What happens when they do?

The person who started this thread asks a simple question.  I gave a simple straight forward answer.  It is however still an opinion.  You probed me on how I came to this opinon and once again I gave a simple straight forward answer.  Am I not entitled to my opinion just as you are.  Is there a specific length the answering has to be or something.

As I don't have an issue with it, I don't grief them.  People that do, do.  'Nuerosurgeons, Judges, Mayors mayors and Senators' could all be looking at porn right now.  Since it's no illegal, they don't get arrested for it.  My stand is that imposing your morality on others is not right. 

The whole point of examining the issue closely - to your disapproval, boredom? - is to work out whether P&p are in fact harmful.

I'm afraid I don't understand the word 'muffed', but again I would question the assumption that it is not harmful  (assuming that that is your criterion for legality).

And legality does not equal morality.

Simply and straightforwardly, you are course entitled to hold ANY opinion.  You are entitled to utter some maybe all of your opinions.  And I am entitled to say that your unsupported opinions are worthless.

So are yours nah, nah, ! ;)

Our laws are imposed on us and they are obtained from our sense of moral decency.  If they were not we would be allowed to do whatever we pleased.

I agree.

Quite right.  And when you catch me expressing unargued unsupported opinions, you can say nyah nyah.   However, I was actually supporting what I said, whereas you have yet to do so.

OK, there's a few issues here. First of all, the idea of exploitation, which you have not defined. Is exploitation using economic circumstances to induce someone to do something they otherwise would not? In that case, are binmen, sewage workers etc. not equally exploited? Incidentally, I would agree that this is exploitation, which is why I am a socialist. I disagree, however, with special pleading because you don't like the idea of prostitution.

The second is the idea of 'wasting their abilities', which is true of so many people in so many jobs. Again hookers and porn-stars are not the only ones wasting their talents. Some might say they are using a different talent (though I don't consider lying on your back pretending to enjoy sex with a stranger a talent).

Thirdly, the idea of objectification and dehumanization. The thing is, men naturally objectify everything - we deal best in a world of objects. Hence we have a tendency to objectify women (along with everything else). The link between objectification and porn/prostitution is spurious at best.

Finally, you said something to BBW about porn/prostitution being harmful. To whom? You see, the thing is, unless one party is unwilling in the act (child porn, rape, sex trafficking etc.) the harm is self-inflicted (whatever harm there may be, which remains to be seen) and therefore is within a persons rights as owner of their own person.

A large part of the shame issue has nothing to do with the acts themselves being malum in se but due to the influence throughout the years of the various churches, with their repressive attitude to sex. This stigma will disappear with time, just as the stigma regarding masturbation is disappearing (also, why is 'imagination porn' any better than real porn?)

I regularly argue for the legalization of prostitution when I get the chance, including while at school.

What exactly do you mean by "degraded", "sick" and "peverted"? (I assume you don't actually mean perverse, which is something totally different.)

Yeppers.

Looking at it from another angle, and trying to compare prostitution to pornography from the girls side.

A prostitute is selling her services(sex) for a given price for a specified time. Wheras a girl doing pornography is selling her sex act viewing rights for a given price.

The difference between the two for the girl is extreme. A prostitute does the act, is paid and that is the end of it in most cases. She can start a new life without anyone knowing(assuming this is western countries and not slave prostitution).

A porn actress on the other hand, will have her sex act replayed over and over again, on all types of players(DVD, In ternet, PC) by different people in different states in different countries. For her, escape and starting a brand new life is almost impossible.She can be recognised everywhere.

Some porn actresses become famous and make a lot of money doing it. But what about all the others? How do they start a new life, have a family, children etc? They can be recognised at the supermarket, in airports, anywhere really. Even their children in later life can watch it if they desire. And people can be extremely cruel and judgemental.

So, while a prostitute may have the ability to escape from their profession and are only recognised by the guys they have slept with(and even the guy who is usually married is not going to make a big thing about recognising the prostitute in public), for the porn actress it is a lot harder.

I guess New York Governer Spitzer wishes you were his boss.

His ordeal kinda makes my point.........these things ruin lives.........

Only because white middle class America wants it that way.  Which proves MY point. 

What are you saying?

The Black middle class supports prostitution and pornography?

Both Black and White upper class supports prostitution and pornography?

Black and White lower class support prostitution and pornography?

I think rejection of both these and the belief they are destructive to society run deeper than you believe......

You're right Patton, ignorance runs deep.

Yeah, but ultimately its the woman's choice. (Or the man's - there's gay porn too).

What about for twins.  It is the choice for one to appear in porn, yet the other still endures the stigma. 

Just playing devil's advocate at the moment.  :angel:

Its unfortunate, obviously, but in general identical twins do not own each-other's image rights.

Lives can be ruined in many ways. Personally I think it shows the sad state of politics (and the public life in general) that the public is so overly concerned with everyone else's personal dealings and private downfalls.

The fact that it can cause big problems for public figures is more a function of the reaction of the public than the actual moral implications of the act.

As far as the OP is concerned, I don't find either pornography or prostitution to be "wrong" from a moral standpoint.

In practical terms, prostitution poses a greater threat to the public health more than pornography because of the spread of disease. Also, I would think the potential for exploitation is much greater in prostitution than in porn.

Based on those things I would say prostitution is 'worse' than pornography, but I would prefer not to prohibit either.

I'm sure many of those are stigmatized in one way or another also.


It's nice to see so many "mature" and self-actualized opinions.....so...just who is this "public you speak of?"

Certainly not those posting here....and...what CAUSES this "reaction of the public" IS the "act".........

Being in a position of leadership....hiring and firing.....writing evaluations for promotion, etc....I will tell you honesty, integrity, character and a lack of moral turpitude means something in the workplace......If I were to read a resume and under hobbies see...."Snowbarding, playing guitar, surfing porn and frequenting prostitutes"-vs-"Snowboarding, playing guitar, volunteering at the soup kitchen and building houses for Habitat For Humanity".....it's a slam dunk who gets the job.

Is it OK for your 13 year old son to surf internet porn?......I assume he has your blessing?

Now you're comparing surfing porn to charity work. Did I miss something, because I don't remember anyone saying porn is as good as charity.

13 year olds are too young to see half the shit that's on the net. They also can't vote. Voting isn't morally corrupt, but you need to be mature enough to handle it.

If a discussion of porn and prostitution came up in a job interview, I would take that as a sign to keep sending out resumes. TBH, I haven't really had interviewers ask me about my hobbies and I don't share. Not so much that I'm ashamed of my hobbies, but a discussion of mapping software is likely to net me a higher wage than a discussion of my guitar playing.

This public I speak of is all of us collectively. I hear more about my coworkers exploits than I care too, and my issue isn't that they're doing the things they talk about, but that they feel the need to let the rest of us know about it. Generally speaking (not just in the workplace), people are too loose with giving out personal information, and too quick to repeat others.

Obviously discretion is the other side of this issue, and I don't tend to feel too much pity for people being loud about the things they don't want people to know about it.


As far as the 13 year olds, there are many things I wouldn't advise someone to let a 13 yr old do (don't have any kids myself). It doesn't mean those things are wrong, just that different things are appropriate for adults and children.

Since we're now talking about underage sexual conduct it should be OBVIOUS that unless you are 18 you should not, lawfully, be looking at porn. From a realistic standpoint it is impossible to prevent this through legal enforcement without infringing on the rights of others. In this particular case it is the parents responsibility to regulate the access their children have to materials like these. If you catch your 13 year old watching porn, take away his internet or monitor it! 


Either way watching or partaking in sexual conduct which is consentual is NOT immoral. No matter which case you are talking about both individuals are willing exchanging something of value. Prostitution and porn are creations of the human mind, both have existed from the start of civilization. Some of the earliest books in midevil Europe were pornographic in nature, describing positions and fantasies. And what about the Kama Sutra? Is this a book of moral bankrupcy or an expression of artistic value and human emotion?

Hey, I'm 15, and I been looking at porn on the net since I was about 12. There's nothing illegal or morally wrong about that. So less of the 'underage sexual conduct' stuff.  :o

Like I haven't seen everything on the net, but the porn I have seen was just naked chicks, and guys and chicks getting it on. I don't think that's a perversion, it's how we were all born.

I dunno about prostitution, but at my age and in my situation (I'm in an all-boys boarding school) I don't get much sex, so porn is great.  ;D

The only problem I have with it, is that the school's computers are blocked from porn sites.  :-\

Yeah, that explains a lot.

What do you think is the reason that the law is so framed (in your society)?   
Why precisely do you think that people under a certain age should not look at pornography? 
And why do you think the particular age is (a) where it is and (b) correctly set?

I've said above that I don't know how much I personally approve/disapprove of porn or prostitution*, but I do think that any legislation constraining the action of a person must be based on some defensible principles, reasoning and fact.

(*Aidan, you started to get a bit confrontational - I was merely examining issues, as were you)

Well....this is the great experiment isn't it?

Yours is the first generation of young men who will grow up with unfettored access to hardcore pornography at will.....results will manifest 30 years from now when you are 45 years old and your generation holds the power in all of our societies "establishment".....will this poison the mind of tomorrows men in positions of responsibility?

What will be the state of two parent families?

The wake of destruction that pornograpy and prostitution generally lie at the feet of our children....they are the ones who pay for the broken trust, broken marriages and dissolution of the only home they know....

Wow, Patton, sounds like you're running for office.

Seeing as your morality is different than mine, my son does yes have access to porn on the internet.  And so far, he is 16, he has turned out pretty damn good.  One of the factors was that I doubted the dubious claims that porn will be the destruction of America that I had heard, and I felt that the trust between us for me not attempting to control his every action would be much more important.  He can look at porn.  And he doesn't that much.  He IS after all a 16 year old boy.  I trust my own experiences far more than I trust your dire claims of impending doom.

Two parent families?  Doubt the woes there can be laid at the feet or porn and prostitution entirely.  And yes sometimes it IS better to divorce. 

Broken trust has absolutley nothing to do with the two P's here.  If you are going behind your mates back, you will for something else.  Don't blame the P's.  IF you two are OK with it, and it is legal, no broken trust.  Which is what I meant that I don't agree with imposition of morality.  Broken marriages have pletny of other causes that P&P.  Unless you are claiming that they break up the majority of marriages?

This seems to be all over the place Patton, I don't quite get what you trying to say.  Or more to the point, maybe I do, but I think your conclusions do not follow from the evidence you have presented.

I'll agree that most cases where prostitution will break up marriages there was something 'wrong' with the guy going to a hooker, but his more to do with being dishonest to his wife and exposing her to contagious diseases.

It's not the handing cash over for sex part that is wrong, IMO. I don't think it would be any less wrong for a guy to cheat on and lie to his wife and not break out his wallet.

I don't agree with htose who said porn always existed.
Prostitution, yes always exsted but not porn, at least not in the form we know it today and certainly not with the level of acceptance we see today.

Sure in lot of periods (Azteque, Grece etc even in the Bible) there are archeological instances of hot stuffs but was it realy porn?

One thing is that it certainly didn't replace prostitution or real sexual intercourses as it does today. The reason is that the cost of pornographic images was as high if not higher than a visit to a prostitute.
For that reason also, hard core porn was the exception rather than the norm but these exception, because they are exceptionals crossed the ages and went noticed and remembered inevitably. Most of the time it was erotic artwork, not porn.
What is obvious is that artists were not obsessed or overpaid to represent these kind of things.

Then the question which comes to mind is "Is porn replacing prostitution?" and "What is better?".

Most of the answer depends of the type of porn and the type of prostitution.



If it's just naked chicks or some pleasant figures, no problems.

Here comes all the importance of the difference between porn and erotism.
Erotism is making the thing attractive while porn is making it digusting.

Porn is actualy more about showing dirty stuff, sometimes utterly repugnant, than sex.
There are some website which I realy wonder if poeple got here to be aroused or to have a maniac pleasure at looking at disgusting scenes...

The danger of porn is to turn the sexual relationship into something ugly, violent, dirty and void of pleasure.

Prostitution, when exerced under bad condition, using industrial methods, low confort and very short time per client can have a disastrous effect on both the client and the worker.
But it will never come as far as the widespread broadcasting of porn.
Even when the relationship between a client and a prostitute is disgusting in its form, and totaly lack friendliness, there is still a minimum of human relationship, a minimum of conversation.

The problem with prostitution is that a woman who start to do it regularly totaly destroy her social life.
She can't have normal husband or friend, fall into a spiral they can't get out of, turn drug addict etc.
Something less dangerous, I think with playing in porn movies, because it's more irregular.
Jerrycoacoara said that a woman would destroy her reputation more with movies. I'm not sure of that.
Prostitution is quite a public job.
The risk to be seen, unless it's in a closed house, is rather high.

The best is occasional prostitution with limited long term moral damage.

Even better would be more girls do it for free. ;)

I wonder if yours is more the exception than the rule.


Well......like I said earlier:

Well....this is the great experiment isn't it?

Yours is the first generation of young men who will grow up with unfettored access to hardcore pornography at will.....results will manifest 30 years from now when you are 45 years old and your generation holds the power in all of our societies "establishment".....will this poison the mind of tomorrows men in positions of responsibility?

He's 16.  He hasn't had years and years of this saturating every nueron in his still growing brain....stimulation=responses=nuerotransmitter upregulation/downregulation.....what are YEARS of exposure, starting with a DEVELOPING brain and psyche going to produce?

You are a braver man than me........I will not experiment with my son......to see what fruit unfettored exposure to hardcore pornography while the brain is still developing will bear over the course of the next 30 years.


There are no long term studies on unfettored exposure to hardcore pornography on developing brains and central nervous systems.......this is the first generation to do so.....we will see how it turned out when these boys become men.


I think there are MANY other ways to do this......but hey.....I'm an idiot.


Never said anything about "entirely"...........but I wonder how women feel about their husbands and boyfriends surfing porn and frequenting whores.....I guess just the self-actualized women of our IAP members have no issues with it.....but again, I'm guessing this is more exception than rule.


If theres nothing wrong with it, why must you go behind their back?


I wonder what percentage of women have no problem with their men surfing porn and using whores.

In answer to Patton's post, I think (a) he has forgotten what it was like to be 15, and (b) he is making certain assumptions about teens. Like I said, I have seen loads of porn, but not the really hard core, disgusting stuff (it doesn't interest me like hot looking chicks do), and like Biker Dude's son, I don't think it has made me into any sort of monster. I do OK at school, and most people seem to think I'm 'a nice boy'.  ;D

And really, I think once guys my age get a regular gf (and some regular sex  ;D) we will be less interested in looking at pix of sex. Like the real thing is better than a photo and a wank. (Oh! Did I say that?  :o  ;D)

Agreed.  However, prostitution really needs to be regulated to the extent that pornography is.

Don't know what makes you say that or what would make it even relevant.

My generation did not have unfettored/unrestricted access to hardcore pornography 24/7/365 at will...........


Do they not teach reading comprehension in junior high anymore?

How much of what I said was in the form of a question?

What "assumption" am I making by asking a question and stating that I WONDER what the effects will be?

Are you kidding me?

Both of them contain a high risk of the user receiving viruses. The only difference is the former is "computer transmitted" whilst the latter is "Sexually transmitted"


It sort of depends what country you are talking about Fred. For example, Netherlands where the prostitutes have their own window, or smaller towns, there is a big chance for the prostitute to destroy her reputation. But in countries where legalised brothels are out in the suburbs behind closed doors, it is not so public.

Prostitution is a bit like being a sports person in one aspect is that you have a limited earning capacity.A prostitute might start at 18 and might be too old by 30. So, if she is smart, she should save as much as she can, or pay her way through education, and then get out and start a new life with a financial head start.

If I ever had a daughter, there is no way I would want her to become a prostitute. You have a high risk of being beaten up or bashed, like Fred says there can be a drug culture there, there is a chance of transmitted diseases and it can have a long term affect on future relations. No matter how nice the girl is, it has to be a major turn off for guys wanting to marry someone who has slept with xxx many guys before and disgusting ones at that.

There is also the downside that I would doubt if there would be much job satisfaction there. Maybe there is for some, but I could imagine others would hate it.

I think the problem with talking about prostitution is that can be like comparing apples and oranges. With many prostitution rackets, there are dreadful exploitation, with young girls being forced to have sex to earn some money for their families, others being kidnapped and forced to work there to pay for their freedom. Whereas other prostitutes earn a legal wage with tax taken out and pension payments, have regular health checks and have security officers guarding the brothel. So it can be like chalk and cheese.

Patton, you keep repeating the 'unfettered access' like it is a mantra.  Maybe it is.  I know what my son looks at.  He isn't interested in hard core porn.  In fact, he doesn't look at it much at all.  All of your hysterics over 'saturating every nueron' and 'unfettered access' really amounts to the same as worrying about Saddam's WMD's.  In the end it doesn't amount to much.  Maybe I trust my son more than you do yours.  And yes you have created a little bit of that 'forbidden fruit' allure.

And your other points are straw men.  As you will notice I said if you agree.  There are plenty of things that are legal that if you don't agree on will cause marital strife.  The legality of it is a very secondary point in my example.

Well, I guess you would know since you are with him at every single computer he has access to.....and of course I was discussing long term effects, and like anything prone to addiction, it ALWAYS starts little by little by little......of course, in a few years when he is no longer under your roof....no one knows what his surfing habits will be......nueropsychologists don't even know what long term effects in the developing brain will do....the best anyone can do is make an educated guess and throw the dice. 


Well of course there are....why pile on more things we KNOW causes strife?

Wouldn't it be best to avoid known causes for marital strife?

Why introduce a known stressor on relationships to a growing young man as if it is perfectly normal and harmless?

If it is a cause (not the only one of course, but a cause nonetheless) for marital strife.....is it then really "harmless?"......or are destroyed relationships due to pornography considered "no harm?"

Sexual repression makes the world go crazy.

Ah, that explains the quality of Untouchable's posts then  :)

I think with porn and prostitution there is a middle ground.

There is obviously a desire for it amongst a certain percentage of the population. Banning it will only force it underground meaning prostitutes and porn actors/actresses working in a dangerous and unregulated work area.

At the same time we probably don't want porn and prostitution on every single street corner either. Well some might want that, but I am not sure that a "netherlands" type of society is the best way to go.

Striking a common sense middle ground between the two seems the most sensible and practical solution IMO. :)

 ;D

No one mentioned bsnning, but since you brought it up, banning either is impossible.....prostitution is already illegal....how do you make something more illegal?

And porn is on the internet which is piped into every corner of earth...we see how well the UN works, so getting a worldwide "ban" on porn seems futile.......also in the US, there is the First Ammendment issue.....and the classic "What is obscene?....I know it when I see it"

Recognizing they are both along the lines of drug use and gambling....which have far MORE potential at ruining lives and society than making lives and society better......unless of course someone has legitimate respected data to show pornography and prostitution improve the quality of our lives, our childrens lives and society at large.

Prostitution is illegal in the US? My apologies, I didn't know that. I learn something every day  :) Prostitution is completely legal in Australia so that is what I was basing my post on. It was more of a general comment rather than US specific. You will have to excuse my comprehension of US laws and regulations not being like the american posters on here, but I do my best.  :)

Patton, in many ways I can see where you are coming from. I personally would feel uncomfortable living in a city like Amsterdam with such a liberal sex and prostitution culture. But I also think to push it underground is not a good thing.Also the freedom of personal choice is important as well. Prostitutes and porn arn't my thing, but i have no issue with people who use either. I am not judgemental like that.

Somebody has to eventually be the mature one and stand up and make a judgement otherwise no one does and it becomeas a free-for-all....maybe because I am required to do so on so many levels daily that it becomes reflexive....but that's the nature of my profession(s), and I can't change that......

You know, a vast majority of "things" do not improve the quality of our lives, but we don't ban them. Fatty foods, smokes and alcohol all have the same destruction level (if not worse), than drugs and P&P. So unless you want all those things banned, you are selectively choosing which plagues of society you want illegal, which is highly hypocritical.

That may be.  Following rules can become reflexive also.  And once rules are removed, what do you do?  I don't want to compare it to convicts, but there are many that are unable to function without those rules once they are removed.  Myself, I don't want anybody else telling me what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'.  I want to choose for myself.  Did you ever see that Sly Stallone movie 'Demolition Man'?  Dennis Leary's character has an excellent speech in it that describes what I mean.

Haha, good call Biker. Here's that speech:

Once again......who said anything about "banning" or making these things "illegal?"

That may be because you are mature enough to handle impulsive or compulsive behavior and keep them in check....however rules exist because there are many who can't...and so they allow there lives to be destroyed and destroy the lives of those around them.

I'm sorry if you feel that way. I don't feel I was overtly confrontational, but whatever. I'd be interested to hear whether or not you agree with the points I made (if not the tone :angel:).

Patton, your posts are based on one key fallacy: pornography warps the mind.

How? Can you back that up with anything other than supposition?

On a related issue, I see nothing wrong with teenagers looking at porn. We need to move on from the society where sex is something shameful/sinful. By stopping kids looking at porn (if they wish) we simply pass that irrational attitude on to the next generation.

IMO most whives make a huge difference between their men "watching porn" which is today an acceptable practice and "using whores" which imply adultery.
But in both case, such woman should ask herself why she is unable to satisfy her husband and what she can do about it.

LOL. :D

IMO prostitution must be legal because it fills a gap. But it must be behind closed houses or in private locations and regulated.
There is nothing worse than girls in windows.

Prostitution plays an important social role. For many men it's the only sexual life possible.
I don't think every clients are filthy bastards. Some are, but most of them are poor lonely guys.

There is no social advantage for women obviousely but with good regulation and enforcement, this can be made a lesser evil. (I have read some literature about it a bit)
Rare are prostitutes who didn't want to do this job or realy hate it. (except within criminal ring of forced sex enslavement). I mean those who do it wouldn't do it if they realy hated it. Practiced on free basis and not more than she would like to, some girls even like it.
Most of them are indifferent and accept this way of making money, a little bit like nurses in a sanatorium have to wash old invalid poeple.

Porn is somewhow fillfulling this role too, but it does something else more subtle.
Porns takes it susers out of real life, into virtual worlds. it creates addiction. There can be addiction to real whores too, but IMO the fact to meet real persons moderates it. Porn is endless and never satisfying.
A whore pass can be frustrating too, but not always. Masturbation is, for sure, always frustrating and far from a fullfilling the basic sexual needs, hence an increasing need for even more porn.

For the 15~16 years old boys, I think they are old enough to choose what they like.
From the time you do it for sex, because you look for sexual arousal, it's less bad than a younger kid who look for it out of curiousity.
Yet, the danger is that you still see things which you don't necessarly want to see. And this can change your perception uncounciousely.

The other danger is the banalisation, absolutely amazing these days, of masturbation. This is something that moves you away from real life, can become addictive and alter your real experience with girls of your age.
Paradoxaly, masturbation and porn which promotes it, makes you shy with girls because it works as a replacement and as a wait for a future time when the situation will be more favorable. But it just make you lose your most precious time.

I find it absolutely insane that masturbation be an accepted practice for 15~16 years old kids while real intercourses are not.

That's where porn and its masssive diffusion is bad: It promotes and demultiply the practice of masturbation and so doing isolates poeple.
It isolates men (young and less young) from women.
It also isolates women from men as they start to think that men look for wierd things (which is not true).
Porn has negative effect in the men/women relationships.

Fredledingue, you make some good points that I would like to comment upon. But first I want to point out that Biker Dude's allowing his son to look at porn, shows he is an intelligent and realistic parent. His son is older than me, and should be able to make his own decisions about stuff like that. And he would find ways to look at it even if his dad banned it. My dad died when I was young, and my mum doesn't know what I do, coz I don't live at home, but if someone banned something like that, I would do it just out of curiosity.

I don't think porn will be a big part of my life when I'm older and have a regular gf, coz who wants to look at it if you can be doing it instead? And most young guys only use porn to make wanking better, but wanking is nowhere as good as sex. Abd socially, where I come from, a wanker is a loser, coz it means he can't get girls. ;D

If you read some of the threads here in the inferno and some of our trolls post history, you will realise that people use political forums for the same purpose.


I think the point that Fred is making is that porn is subconciously making the male less likely to want real sex with a real person.I tend to agree with this in a kind of way. Porn looks at unrealistic women as purely sexual objects. So a guy that watches "big Jugs of texas" and sees women with 46JJJ chests is going to look at his girlfriend or wife with dissappointment. Similiarly with the type of sex acts done on these movies, what the wife or gf does might not be as adventurous/sordid. The movies are pure fantasy of course, but maybe they can stay in the males subconcious. I think that is where Fred is coming from(unfortunate use of terminology given the subject nature).

Sorry if I go off topic, but do you think prostitution should be legalized?

IMO prostitution must be legal because it fills a gap caters for a specific market.



This is what I said before. It absolutely staggered me when Patton said that prostitution was illegal. In Australia it is completely legal. Brothels are in industrial suburbs. The prostitutes pay tax on their earnings, they get regular health checks, and there is security. A person who owns a brothel must have a complete police checl. so it is regulated.

.

I heard this story from a policeman many years ago. He was called to a brothel where an old guy had died. What happened was that the guy was old(maybe 70 or so) and was so nervous at doing the business that he had a heart attack in the shower beforehand, and died. So what the policeman did was dry him, put his clothes on and carry him to the car. Then they drove the car around the block and called an ambulance. So they could tell his wife that he died of a heart attack driving to the supermarket or something like that. I guess the policeman was concerned about the memory of the guy and also his wifes feelings. When I heard this I felt really sad for both really. Maybe the wife couldn't have sex anymore(I guess you get to a certain age and can't) and the guy sought relief elsewhere. It was a really sad situation.


I would guess that many would hate it, but only do it for the money. I mean, I doubt you are going to get Brad pitt walking in all the time. Many of the guys are paying for sex for a reason. Not putting the guys down, but it can't be a bundle of fun for the woman.


I agree with this in a way. I wrote about it in the above post. I just think that with porn, there are unrealistic women doing unrealisitic things, and maybe for the guy to look at his wife or gf after that, is a dissappointment. Just a theory

I was staggered to learn yesterday that it wasn't legalised in the US.  :o

There can't be many western countries that it isn't legalised.

Do they enforce the law regarding prostitution in the US, or do they turn a blind eye?

Basically, prostitution is legal in Rhode Island, and Nevada.  With certain provisions.  See here...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_States

It's enforced.

Somehow, a guy who goes to whores is also a loser because he can't have sex otherwise. :D But the topic is not funny.

In my case and in the case most of the boys of my age when I was young , there was an incredibly long time between the time we made love for the first time (often past 20) and the first time we were capable of that (15~16). It was like sex was immoral for young guys and gals but not for older, uglier adults...

About father and son, I think a father should tolerate his son watching porn, but within the limit of decency: That it doesn't become an obsession. Having a few hotpics on your computer never killed anyone. Things start to be worse when you spend money and an insane amount of time to it.
And I think pathological porn involve more "adult" than "teenagers" (thought I hate to make the differenciation). Dad should worry more about himself watching too much porn than his son IMO. LOL.

_____________________

Here in Lithuania, prostitution was legal, then became illegal, I think to stop sexual tourism.
It's enforeced and catch poeple every week or so.
But as I could see, there is a ring on the internet. I never looked into it.

What was interresting is that prostitution was legal while pornography (even hand drawings) were prohibited.
This was the first time I asked myself the question of this topic.

Most of european countries have free, legalised prostitution.

LOL! Why not? Other people having sex is always funny.  ;D


Hey, nothing much has changed. When I was like 11 or 12, I got these big lectures over how I mustn't wank, and now I get big lectures about the dangers of sex. I listen respectfully, but LOL, the joke is on them, coz I already had real sex yonks ago. I know all about condoms and stuff, and she was like my mum's age, and she insisted, so no one was harmed. But still people treat me like I don't know what it's for. Especially my mum, who acts like I'm still her baby.


Dunno much about fathers and sons, coz my dad died when I was little. And I keep my porn on a disc coz I use the school computers most of the time. I would never spend money on porn (like you can get it on the 'net if you know where to look) and I don't have much free time to look at it (like I have to make sure no one's around when I load the disc). Dunno what 'pathological porn' is. If you mean the really gross stuff with violence and rape, that's a big turn off for me. I just like looking at hott chicks.  ;D

_____________________

Here in Lithuania, prostitution was legal, then became illegal, I think to stop sexual tourism.
It's enforeced and catch poeple every week or so.
But as I could see, there is a ring on the internet. I never looked into it.

What was interresting is that prostitution was legal while pornography (even hand drawings) were prohibited.
This was the first time I asked myself the question of this topic.

Most of european countries have free, legalised prostitution.

[/quote]

How ironic that I read this post today, being Palm Sunday.


I must say Leo that you went to a more progressive school than I did. I can't say I remember that topic being covered at my school.

LOL!  :D But no, wanking isn't one of the subjects at my school, I was just warned by the house master that doing it too much was bad for me. I dunno how he even knew that I did it.  ???

Because you're a young guy...

Freddy, this is an interesting question.

Which is worse? 

I've seen men become addicted to porn and have to join support groups to overcome the addiction, similar to alcholism.  It is not innocent fun.  Its also pervasive, cheap or free and easy.  There is so much that is available for free on the net that I've always wondered how porn is the biggest money maker.  Then I realize that it5s the addiction factor.  Paying to look and look while trying to see something new.  Same as a junkie or an alchoholic.  Not only is it evil, its easy to get sucked into.

Prostitution is not really considered addictive and has long been touted as a victimless crime.  However, its debasing and dehumanizing to the prostitutes.  I'm reminded of the scene from the movie "Boyz in the Hood" where a strung out, crack addicted woman offers felatio for just enogh cash for one more hit of crack.   Prostitution also appears to be a contributing factor in crime rates. 

Of course, there are different levels of prostitution, I'm fairly sure that the hookers that were servicing Elliott Spitzer, former governor of New York, were not low level street whores.  However, they were performing the same act for a much higher fee.  (I'm surprised that Spitzer couldn't satisfy his urges andy other way.  I mean, how much of a problem could it have been for a milionaire governor to get a legitimate date?) 

Trying to decide which is worse is li