|
Title: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: Terry Mathis on March 23, 2008, 08:17:22 AM It seems that way. An agreement was signed in Yemen for the two factions, Hamas and Fatah, to get back to the pre-violent takeover by Hamas in Gaza. Has Hamas finally realized it is not so easy to be responsible for a lot of its own Palestinian people? http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/24/2197156.htm?section=world Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: Fredledingue on March 23, 2008, 02:13:05 PM Hamas had to come to realise that they are unable mentaly, structuraly, intellectualy, to govern even a small piece of land.
They have no idea what it is. They don't know what being in politics means. Haniyeh is not at ease in his new suit and a tie around his neck because he never wore that sort of clothes before. One year after everybody told them they still don't seem to understand that you can't be a governement and a fanatic group active in daily violences and over-the-border rocket fires. Hamas is unable to understand what is obvious to anyone. But they are forced to, at least act as if they finaly understood. Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: gommi on March 23, 2008, 04:02:13 PM hem they still don't seem to understand that you can't be a governement and a fanatic group active in daily violences and over-the-border rocket fires. Very true. As you stated, no militant government is capable of adequately serving a citizenry.Hamas is unable to understand what is obvious to anyone. But they are forced to, at least act as if they finaly understood. Now with the two parties interacting, a system more resembling democracy may appear. Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: machioveli on March 23, 2008, 04:50:36 PM Big mistake by Fatah in my opinion. Hamas is only looking for a way out to rebuild and continue thier destructive ways. The world only ask 3 things of them when they were elected: recognizing Israel, accepting agreements made by the defeated Fatah regime and denouncing violence. Simple demands to keep critical aid flowing to its own people. I think this proves that they do not give a damn about anyone and are not capable of running an government.
Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: Terry Mathis on March 24, 2008, 05:46:25 AM hem they still don't seem to understand that you can't be a governement and a fanatic group active in daily violences and over-the-border rocket fires. Very true. As you stated, no militant government is capable of adequately serving a citizenry.Hamas is unable to understand what is obvious to anyone. But they are forced to, at least act as if they finaly understood. Now with the two parties interacting, a system more resembling democracy may appear. Seems to be a 'mix-up' with negotiations between Hamas and Fatah: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3522964,00.html and http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/24/africa/ME-GEN-Palestinians-No-Unity.php Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: realityman on March 24, 2008, 01:08:04 PM Big mistake by Fatah in my opinion. Hamas is only looking for a way out to rebuild and continue thier destructive ways... I totally agree. Any government including Hamas has no chance at any sort of meaningful or lasting peace... (unless Hamas changes who "Hamas" is, and that seems very unlikely by their own words and actions). It's a quite simple formula the Palestinian people don't seem to want to 'get"... Hamas seeks Israel's destruction... They make no secret of this... Whether they control parts of what may become a Palestinian State, whether they're part of the government, or whether they're simply an organization ALLOWED TO OPERATE and seek their violent agenda un-policed under other Palestinian leadership, there is no chance for a meaningful, lasting peace. Until Palestinians themselves (or Palestinians with outside help) deal effectively with this terrorist group who clearly have no plans to chance their agenda on their own, there can be no meaningful peace. That the Palestinian people elected this terrorist group into power should shed some light as to the "mentality" Israel is dealing with here on a daily basis. Fatah's "cowering" to them (once again) only exposes their weakness and lack of meaningful control. Yet Fatah is negotiating peace?? One might ask... with what?? Hamas won't accept a Fatah negotiated peace or Israeli borders no matter where they are. And Fatah won't effectively confront/deal with Hamas.... soooo... (??)... The Covenant of Hamas (for anyone who might have an interest in how THEY... in THEIR OWN WORDS... have set their agenda: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: yilmaz101 on March 24, 2008, 03:06:24 PM The same could have been argued of PLO and Arafat until 1988.... Oh wait it was!
Any political movement (or even terrorist movements with political ambitions, like our PKK) have to moderate at some point or become irrelevant. In my opinion Hamas is actually realizing that violence is not the means to a viable solution to the Palestinian problem. First step will be ending inter-Palestinian fighting. At some point further down the road they will also realize they will have to engage Israel in manner different to how they've been engaged so far. They'll have to sit at a table with the Israelis and talk if they ever wish to have a future in Palestinian peoples affairs. They'll have to realize at some point that only those who sit at the taple with Israel and the US and the international community at large has relevance as far as the future of Palestine is concerned. Once they realize that then their charter and everything else about them will change. Just give it time. Like I said 20 years ago Fatah and Arafat and the PLO were the terrorists avowed to destruction of Israel too..... Big mistake by Fatah in my opinion. Hamas is only looking for a way out to rebuild and continue thier destructive ways... I totally agree. Any government including Hamas has no chance at any sort of meaningful or lasting peace... (unless Hamas changes who "Hamas" is, and that seems very unlikely by their own words and actions). It's a quite simple formula the Palestinian people don't seem to want to 'get"... Hamas seeks Israel's destruction... They make no secret of this... Whether they control parts of what may become a Palestinian State, whether they're part of the government, or whether they're simply an organization ALLOWED TO OPERATE and seek their violent agenda un-policed under other Palestinian leadership, there is no chance for a meaningful, lasting peace. Until Palestinians themselves (or Palestinians with outside help) deal effectively with this terrorist group who clearly have no plans to chance their agenda on their own, there can be no meaningful peace. That the Palestinian people elected this terrorist group into power should shed some light as to the "mentality" Israel is dealing with here on a daily basis. Fatah's "cowering" to them (once again) only exposes their weakness and lack of meaningful control. Yet Fatah is negotiating peace?? One might ask... with what?? Hamas won't accept a Fatah negotiated peace or Israeli borders no matter where they are. And Fatah won't effectively confront/deal with Hamas.... soooo... (??)... The Covenant of Hamas (for anyone who might have an interest in how THEY... in THEIR OWN WORDS... have set their agenda: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: realityman on March 24, 2008, 04:33:22 PM ...In my opinion Hamas is actually realizing that violence is not the means to a viable solution to the Palestinian problem. I wish I could agree with that opinion... but I've yet to see any meaningful evidence of this. Hamas regularly fires Kassams at Israel civilian centers... then proudly claims responsibility... They openly celebrated and praised the suicide bombing which killed 8(?) mostly under 18 year old students... and this was only a few weeks ago. Because the KKK isn't hanging as many African Americans lately, doesn't mean their views regarding them has changed. The leaders of Hamas still advocate the agenda under which they were founded... No recognition of Israel, and the goal of Israel's destruction. They've been kind enough to document this agenda: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm - ...and have never publicly (to my knowledge) indicated any desire to change these goals or agenda. I've seen no evidence to indicate that any semblance of moderation is anything more than temporary measures to ease the pressure on them. The day I see (and see in writing) formal statements from Hamas' leadership... and confirmation of such statements indicating Hamas is willing to accept Israel's existence (without terms which would ultimately mean it's destruction)... is the day I start seeing a possible light at the end of the tunnel... If you or anyone has such evidence, I'd be anxious to see it... but the overwhelming indications from Hamas, time and time again, are that little if anything has changed from their perspective. Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: yilmaz101 on March 24, 2008, 09:08:38 PM I'd say the day Hamas sits at the table negotiating the future of Palestine with Israel is the day they've accepted Israel, you don't talk to someone whose authority you don't accpept, especailly about soveigrnty issues... So Hamas has only got a little more time until they are forced to negotiate with Israel. By the way Saudi Arabia has not ever recognized Israel, and they're still technically at war with Israel, since 48. Their rhetorich though does not stop them from having unofficial contact with Isreel, deoes it? So for Hamas lso there'll abe defacto recognitgion before therre is any documentation.....
Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: Terry Mathis on March 24, 2008, 09:17:12 PM yilmaz, you give Hamas too much credit. The only time I have ever seen them back down or act peacefully is when they want to rebuild and restock... Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: realityman on March 25, 2008, 09:09:05 AM I'd say the day Hamas sits at the table negotiating the future of Palestine with Israel is the day they've accepted Israel, you don't talk to someone whose authority you don't accpept, especailly about soveigrnty issues... By "recognition", what's usually meant is the acceptance of a "right to exist"... Certainly Hamas (and all related miltant groups) realizes and "recognizes" that Israel "exists"... It's hard to deny...It's on maps (other than some Arab/Muslim maps)... It's recognized by other governments, has it's own currency, military, government, leadership, etc... What Hamas refuses to accept is Israel's right to exist... and defend itself against those who seek to do it and it's citizens harm. As Terry Alluded to, We've only seen Hamas offer ceasefires, or quiet periods and only on temporary basis... Hamas would love a ceasefire so they could be free to rearm, reorganize, etc...without the threat of being policed by Israel. Hamas will/and has no-doubt sit/sat down with Israel whether formally or informally through back channels... Hamas is struggling to survive as an entity and will do and/or say almost anything to stay in power... If we recall back to the defunked "unity government"... This wasn't something Hamas wanted, but something they "sort of" did in a failed attempt to avoid being cut off from funding... The press was quick to jump on this stating that Hamas, in agreeing to be part of a unity government with Fatah, was somehow indirect "recognition" of Israel... Hamas was only too quick to squelch these "rumors" through statements by their leadership... The "unity government" never got anywhere as Hamas refused to openly recognize Israel's right to exist and abide by previous agreements... The "talk" was they they were moderating, but in reality they never agreed to change anything of substance regarding their agenda of Israel's elimination... As I stated: The day I see (and see in writing) formal statements from Hamas' leadership... and confirmation of such statements indicating Hamas is willing to accept Israel's existence (meaning their right to exist) (without terms which would ultimately mean it's destruction)... is the day I start seeing a possible light at the end of the tunnel... If you or anyone has such evidence, I'd be anxious to see it... but the overwhelming indications from Hamas, time and time again, are that little if anything has changed from their perspective. Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: yilmaz101 on March 25, 2008, 09:45:48 PM Well your day will eventually come too. But common sense tells me mine will come before yours. After defacto recognition of Israel and its right to exist, as in Hamas being engaged in a peace process with an entity that they have not recognized as being legitimate (hensce the issue of right to exist) they will have to at some point make a formal recognition, if only to secure a Palestinian homeland where Hamas itself will have the right to exist.
Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: Fredledingue on April 05, 2008, 10:47:41 AM I'd say the day Hamas sits at the table negotiating the future of Palestine with Israel is the day they've accepted Israel, you don't talk to someone whose authority you don't accpept, especailly about soveigrnty issues... So Hamas has only got a little more time until they are forced to negotiate with Israel. By the way Saudi Arabia has not ever recognized Israel, and they're still technically at war with Israel, since 48. Their rhetorich though does not stop them from having unofficial contact with Isreel, deoes it? So for Hamas lso there'll abe defacto recognitgion before therre is any documentation..... If Hamas does that, all the hard core fanatics will leave Hamas and create another movements for the same violence and peace will be nowhere once again. So far Hamas exists only through these hard core elements. It's not because it' "Hamas", it's because too many poeple are hard core fanatics. If Hamas make "peace" with Israel, these fanatics will still be there. Anyway in a foreseable future, Hamas will stil be the gang who fires Qassam rocket at Israel and nothing else. Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: Terry Mathis on April 05, 2008, 10:57:10 AM I'd say the day Hamas sits at the table negotiating the future of Palestine with Israel is the day they've accepted Israel, you don't talk to someone whose authority you don't accpept, especailly about soveigrnty issues... So Hamas has only got a little more time until they are forced to negotiate with Israel. By the way Saudi Arabia has not ever recognized Israel, and they're still technically at war with Israel, since 48. Their rhetorich though does not stop them from having unofficial contact with Isreel, deoes it? So for Hamas lso there'll abe defacto recognitgion before therre is any documentation..... If Hamas does that, all the hard core fanatics will leave Hamas and create another movements for the same violence and peace will be nowhere once again. So far Hamas exists only through these hard core elements. It's not because it' "Hamas", it's because too many poeple are hard core fanatics. If Hamas make "peace" with Israel, these fanatics will still be there. Anyway in a foreseable future, Hamas will stil be the gang who fires Qassam rocket at Israel and nothing else. Well then, get ready for a MAJOR Israeli incursion into Gaza, and for them to keep 20-40km when they are done. ;) Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: realityman on April 07, 2008, 03:13:24 PM If Hamas does that, all the hard core fanatics will leave Hamas and create another movements for the same violence and peace will be nowhere once again. So far Hamas exists only through these hard core elements. It's not because it' "Hamas", it's because too many poeple are hard core fanatics. If Hamas make "peace" with Israel, these fanatics will still be there. ... An excellent point Fred.... It's not so much "Hamas" as an entity, but the widespread IDEOLOGY of destoying Israel, terror, glorifying their "martyrs" who kill innocent Israelis/Jews (etc) which Hamas has come to represent. There are numerous offshoots of Hamas and even Fatah which condone this agenda. So long as the ideology represented by these groups remains... and remains basically un-policed by "their own", I see little hope for any meaningful, lasting peace. Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: machioveli on April 10, 2008, 02:15:29 PM The people of Palestine are suffering because of the choices Hamas (who they voted for) are making http://thepost.com.pk/IntNews.aspx?dtlid=154862&catid=1. Kind of like we are with Bush :D
Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: Dormouse on April 10, 2008, 02:20:12 PM Quote from: gommi Very true. As you stated, no militant government is capable of adequately serving a citizenry. Really? I should think the militant revolutionaries of 1776 did a pretty darn good job of it. Oliver Cromwell's (revolutionary) Commonwealth was also quite functionally successful in administering the government. One might also add Lenin and Castro's revolutionary governments -- though they were both ugly and authoritarian, they were quite functional states that achieved remarkable results under extremely challenging conditions. Ergo, I don't think it is reasonable to say that militants or revolutionaries can't govern. In some cases, they most certainly can and do. I'd say the day Hamas sits at the table negotiating the future of Palestine with Israel is the day they've accepted Israel, you don't talk to someone whose authority you don't accpept, especailly about soveigrnty issues... So Hamas has only got a little more time until they are forced to negotiate with Israel. By the way Saudi Arabia has not ever recognized Israel, and they're still technically at war with Israel, since 48. Their rhetorich though does not stop them from having unofficial contact with Isreel, deoes it? So for Hamas lso there'll abe defacto recognitgion before therre is any documentation..... I'm inclined to agree with your general point, however, I disagree that "Hamas has only got a little more time until they are forced to negotiate with Israel". I see no rational basis for that conclusion. Hamas appears to have increased their stature and prestige within the Palestinian and wider Arabic community over the last dozen years or so is precisely because they have 'stood up' where Fatah has faltered. The rise of Hamas in Palestinian politics is mostly due to the failures of Fatah. I also think Israel and the US appear to be paying a price here (in Hamas intransience) for foolishly humiliating Arafat. He was a corrupt old fool, but he had been politically tamed. If you wipe out the moderate base, there is only the hardline radicals left... As for the general issue of Israel and Palestine, I'm probably a lot more of a centerist on the issue than the majority in this thread. I've always believed the old 'two-state' solution was the only viable one - ironic that both Israel and the Arabs refused it outright (with identical reasons) back when it was originally proposed in the late 1940's. As it stands, I see no signs on either side of the issue (Israeli or Palestine) that indicates any kind of reduction in hostilities is likely or near. It always takes two to tango. Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: realityman on April 11, 2008, 03:03:22 PM .... I've always believed the old 'two-state' solution was the only viable one - ironic that both Israel and the Arabs refused it outright (with identical reasons) back when it was originally proposed in the late 1940's.... Huh?? BOTH refused it?? With "identical reasons"?? Maybe you can elaborate on those points ???. As I recall, it was the Jews/Israel who's representatives agreed to Resolution 181 (on far less land that the Palestine Mandate and Balfour Declaration clearly implied)... and the Arabs who rejected it opting instead for a war to destroy Israel (??) ??? ??? ??? Quote On 29 November 1947 the United Nations General Assembly approved a plan, UN General Assembly Resolution 181, to resolve the Arab-Jewish conflict by partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab... The Zionist leadership accepted the partition plan as "the indispensable minimum," glad as they were with the international recognition... the representatives of the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab League firmly opposed the UN action and even rejected its authority... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1990_1999/1999/3/The%20Status%20of%20General%20Assembly%20Resolution%20181%20-II- Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: Dormouse on April 14, 2008, 07:24:43 AM Huh?? I stand corrected with respect to 1947.BOTH refused it?? With "identical reasons"?? Maybe you can elaborate on those points ???. As I recall, it was the Jews/Israel who's representatives agreed to Resolution 181 (on far less land that the Palestine Mandate and Balfour Declaration clearly implied)... and the Arabs who rejected it opting instead for a war to destroy Israel (??) ??? ??? ??? My point was a general one regarding the 1948 to present day. But you are correct - back in 1947 the Jewish representatives were 'officially' on board the two-state policy (though, to be honest, they had no choice at all since that was the ONLY route available for Israeli Statehood). Once the deal was done, both sides had the 'shared' interest in rejecting the two state model, both mistakenly believing that they could 'eliminate' the hated 2nd state to their own advantage. It seems that the 'two-states' solution is only now coming to be widely accepted by both sides on the basis that they both have utterly failed in their attempts to eliminate the other. In other words the 'two' state solution has always been a second choice for both parties (except for one brief shining moment in 1947 when the Jews needed to support the idea in order to get their State established). Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: Robin Hood on April 14, 2008, 12:28:03 PM Hamas won the Palestinian elections. They fight a war against the brutal occupier, childrenkiller and land stealer, Israel.
Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: Ahkenaten on April 15, 2008, 09:00:59 AM zzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz
Palestinians have never once been interested in peace. They brainwash their children into hate and martyrism. THEY are the child killers. When you send your own child loaded with explosives to go and kill himself and other children that makes you a child killer --- unless you are also hopelessly brainwashed to the point you dont know which way is up. They fight a war that doesn't have to be fought and arab pride -- irrevocably hurt during the 6 day war when they were made fools --- is what stumps peace, not Israel. Arabs wouldn't pull a hair for Palestinans. Ahk Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: machioveli on April 15, 2008, 03:36:28 PM Hamas won the Palestinian elections. They fight a war against the brutal occupier, childrenkiller and land stealer, Israel. You are exactly right. As I have stated before they are paying the consequences for it. You stated Hamas is the leading government and is fighting a war against Israel, so do not beg for mercy when they fight back. Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: realityman on April 15, 2008, 06:12:04 PM .... Once the deal was done, both sides had the 'shared' interest in rejecting the two state model, both mistakenly believing that they could 'eliminate' the hated 2nd state to their own advantage.... Again.... huh?? ??? ??? If you'd care to check your history, Israel has won it's wars, and VOLUNTARILY pulled back from the vast majority of the land it captured during those wars... Furthermore, there has never been a "Palestinian State" to attempt to eliminate... and Israel has never attempted to claim Palestine west of the Jordan river as "Israel" since agreeing to the original partition...So again... ??? ??? Since '48, Israel has had a state. It was the Arab side (long before the concept of a unique "Palestinian People" existed) which refused to accept Israel on any borders and waged war. If you recall, the Arabs had '67 borders (under Jordanian and Egyptian "occupation"), but those borders were again not enough (as '48 borders weren't enough in '48).. They (the Arab/Muslims) waged more war, losing again. ... And how many times did Arafat walk from the peace table with NOTHING only to wage more violence?? Again...If Israel wanted all of historic Palestine west of the Jordan river to be "Israel" (as you implied), it would have formally made such a declaration long ago... AGAIN, Israel won it's wars and voluntarily pulled back to borders it deemed defensible from those who obviously (by their actions) sought and seek to do it and it's citizens harm. Having to police a violent neighbor who refused to police themselves and who's elected government openly seeks Israel's destruction (ever read the Covenant of Hamas?? http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm ) is in no one's best interest... But until the Palestinians have demonstrated through their actions an ability and willingness to live in peace, others (namely Israel) have to police them. Quote from: Dormouse ...It seems that the 'two-states' solution is only now coming to be widely accepted by both sides on the basis that they both have utterly failed in their attempts to eliminate the other... Again...the attempted balancing act??.... "Widely accepted by both sides"... "only now"??..... As indicated above... it's some (and only "some") of the Arab side who've only recently come to embrace this idea... AS THEY'VE LOST ALL THEIR NUMEROUS ATTEMPTS TO DESTROY ISRAEL... Israel has made numerous offers to the Arab/Palestinian side over the years and has long ago agreed to and made offers based on the idea of a second Arab state in Palestine (second to Jordan which makes up 77% of what was the Palestine Mandate)...The first Arab state to recognize Israel's right to exist... didn't recognize such until 1978... some 30 years after it's formation... hmmm ;) With all due respect... you seem anxious to try to "balance the scales" (or show some "shared interest"?),... to equate one side to the other, you're ignoring or clearly haven't researched basic historical facts on this subject. Is this a subject you're familiar with or are you just trying to show both sides being equally bad/good?? Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: Dormouse on April 16, 2008, 09:09:20 AM Again.... huh?? ??? ??? You are quite right that I see an even balance here with two sides that are notoriously prone to lie, engage in aggressive acts and flood the world with propaganda to support their view.If you'd care to check your history, Israel has won it's wars, and VOLUNTARILY pulled back from the vast majority of the land it captured during those wars... Furthermore, there has never been a "Palestinian State" to attempt to eliminate... and Israel has never attempted to claim Palestine west of the Jordan river as "Israel" since agreeing to the original partition...So again... ??? ??? Since '48, Israel has had a state. It was the Arab side (long before the concept of a unique "Palestinian People" existed) which refused to accept Israel on any borders and waged war. If you recall, the Arabs had '67 borders (under Jordanian and Egyptian "occupation"), but those borders were again not enough (as '48 borders weren't enough in '48).. They (the Arab/Muslims) waged more war, losing again. ... And how many times did Arafat walk from the peace table with NOTHING only to wage more violence?? Again...If Israel wanted all of historic Palestine west of the Jordan river to be "Israel" (as you implied), it would have formally made such a declaration long ago... AGAIN, Israel won it's wars and voluntarily pulled back to borders it deemed defensible from those who obviously (by their actions) sought and seek to do it and it's citizens harm. Having to police a violent neighbor who refused to police themselves and who's elected government openly seeks Israel's destruction (ever read the Covenant of Hamas?? http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm ) is in no one's best interest... But until the Palestinians have demonstrated through their actions an ability and willingness to live in peace, others (namely Israel) have to police them. ... Again...the attempted balancing act??.... "Widely accepted by both sides"... "only now"??..... As indicated above... it's some (and only "some") of the Arab side who've only recently come to embrace this idea... AS THEY'VE LOST ALL THEIR NUMEROUS ATTEMPTS TO DESTROY ISRAEL... Israel has made numerous offers to the Arab/Palestinian side over the years and has long ago agreed to and made offers based on the idea of a second Arab state in Palestine (second to Jordan which makes up 77% of what was the Palestine Mandate)...The first Arab state to recognize Israel's right to exist... didn't recognize such until 1978... some 30 years after it's formation... hmmm ;) With all due respect... you seem anxious to try to "balance the scales" (or show some "shared interest"?),... to equate one side to the other, you're ignoring or clearly haven't researched basic historical facts on this subject. Is this a subject you're familiar with or are you just trying to show both sides being equally bad/good?? I find pro-Israeli propaganda as biased as pro-Palestinian propaganda. About the only interesting feature of the dispute is to note (at least in North America) how the issue is perfectly mirrored along US right-left ideological lines. When a topic is dominated by ideological opponents, the issue is no longer Israel or Palestine. Unlike the ideologes on both sides of the fence on this issue, I have no need or desire to engage either of them on this topic or to try to discuss issue. Experience has taught me the futility of it. Title: Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally? Post by: realityman on April 16, 2008, 12:45:55 PM You are quite right that I see an even balance here with two sides that are notoriously prone to lie, engage in aggressive acts and flood the world with propaganda to support their view. And with all due respect, I would submit to you that... you see an "even balance" because that's what you want to see (regardless of what the actual facts might dictate). I called into question what you presented as a basis for your "balancing act" post. I presented facts (easily researchable) and basic logic which countered what you presented... You don't want to back up your statements, yet you want to keep your "even balance" perspective?? hmmm While certainly there is radical propaganda being spewed from both sides, there are also easily verifiable facts and basic logic easily applied to those facts.. Quote from: Dormouse I have no need or desire to engage either of them on this topic or to try to discuss issue.... ... which is clearly why you see an "even balance"... You want to see an even balance , and you know that if you actually had to research, support, and debate the related facts, that view would ultimately change one way or the other... And you clearly don't want that. OK, Fare enough. Quote from: Dormouse ...Experience has taught me the futility of it... Then I would ask what your purpose is here adding an opinion on this topic?? You expressed your opinions on the issue, but when it's shown that that opinion is based on misconceptions (as you presented them) and not on facts you can support, NOW you're not interested in it(??). (Well, I do appreciate your honesty) While it's true that there's "futility" in trying to persuade hardliners from their positions, isn't the purpose of these boards... to learn ... to express opinions then to backup/support those positions/opinions versus others?? It's not much of a board if everyone is just here to express opinions only to avoid having to back them up when questioned. I might have the opinion that the earth is flat... If I want to express that opinion, but then don't want to discuss it, back it up with facts, or acknowledge facts to the contrary, ...of what value is my opinion?? OK
Powered by SMF 1.1.4 |
SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC
Joomla Bridge by JoomlaHacks.com |