IAP Political Forum

Political Discussions => United States => Topic started by: Irwin on May 08, 2008, 02:41:21 PM



Title: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: Irwin on May 08, 2008, 02:41:21 PM
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10184.html

So they are saying anyway...


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: Reaganite on May 08, 2008, 03:02:08 PM
I hope Hillary still keeps fighting until the convention though!! :)


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: Reaganite on May 08, 2008, 03:10:32 PM
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10184.html

So they are saying anyway...

“You can declare mission accomplished but that doesn’t mean that the mission has actually been accomplished,” Wolfson said.   HAHAHAHAHHA OMFG what a cool line and they will bang Obama with it for 11 days :) Nice...


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: Perrin on May 09, 2008, 04:28:17 AM
I hope Hillary still keeps fighting until the convention though!! :)

Why would you hope that?  I thought you wanted to make sure McCain lost.  Wouldn't your goal then to be to have a unified Democratic party this election cycle?


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: Reaganite on May 09, 2008, 06:18:04 AM
its fun to watch... :)


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: Abraxas on May 09, 2008, 08:01:27 AM
It was expected that Obama would win North Carolina and that Hillary would win Indiana weeks ago. I don't understand why everything is suddenly over...

... not that I'm upset about it...


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: Irwin on May 09, 2008, 10:16:52 AM
It was expected that Obama would win North Carolina and that Hillary would win Indiana weeks ago. I don't understand why everything is suddenly over...

... not that I'm upset about it...
Because Hilary hasn't had the numbers since March. She was hoping for a big win in Indiana to show she was better to get white blue collar voters. She got a near split decision in Indiana when it was supposed to be a big win and she was crushed in NC. Even the media, which wants to sell a horse race, has to admit now that there is no way for her in the states left. She would need 70% of the vote. Not gonna happen. DOR.


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: OswaldTheOsprey on May 09, 2008, 10:42:35 AM
Senator Clinton's statements since Tuesday (and those of some of her supporters) suggest, IMHO, rule or ruin.

OswaldTheOsprey


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: Irwin on May 09, 2008, 10:45:58 AM
Senator Clinton's statements since Tuesday (and those of some of her supporters) suggest, IMHO, rule or ruin.

OswaldTheOsprey

Yeah, egomania. She feels it has been stolen. Sorry, you have to earn it.


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: OswaldTheOsprey on May 09, 2008, 10:50:58 AM
Senator Clinton's statements since Tuesday (and those of some of her supporters) suggest, IMHO, rule or ruin.

OswaldTheOsprey

Yeah, egomania. She feels it has been stolen. Sorry, you have to earn it.

Indeed. So much for "inevitability".

OswaldTheOsprey


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: And Justice For All on May 10, 2008, 10:59:53 AM
I hope Hillary still keeps fighting until the convention though!! :)

No offense Reaganite but why do I get the feeling you're completely full of shit? I mean come on do you really think you're fooling any of us of your sudden change of heart from a die hard George W Bush fan to a anti-McCain voting for a democrat self that you try to portray now?


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: Reaganite on May 11, 2008, 07:33:05 AM
Lol I have been attacking Bush a ton over the last 5 years.

you have no clue... 

I am a conservative not a republican.


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: micfranklin on May 12, 2008, 05:04:29 AM
All Clinton has earned herself is a lifetime slot as one of the dirtiest and most dishonest politicians in the back of my head. What scares me is that some people look up to her, and I don't understand how you can look up to someone who claims they were shot at by snipers.


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: Abraxas on May 12, 2008, 07:25:09 AM
All Clinton has earned herself is a lifetime slot as one of the dirtiest and most dishonest politicians in the back of my head. What scares me is that some people look up to her, and I don't understand how you can look up to someone who claims they were shot at by snipers.

... and who, when proven to be lying, continued to tell that story...


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: IamMe on May 12, 2008, 02:32:20 PM
I am a conservative not a republican.

I thought they were basically the same thing?


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: Patton on May 12, 2008, 04:36:14 PM
A "conservative" is not generally a "moderate"....whereas a Republican can be.....


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: freethinker on May 13, 2008, 05:50:57 AM
 By definition a conservative is one who wishes to conserve... the constitution, the environment, public education, public protections, civil rights, democracy...etc. 
 The republicon party now mostly wishes to erode, challenge, change or do away with all these things in the name of the free market and the economic growth of big business. In recent history to be a republicon is to be a radical, the polar opposite of conservative. IMO republicons of late could better be described as free market anarchists. The only thing they truly want to "conserve" are their profit margins.


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: Factinista on May 13, 2008, 06:12:59 AM
By definition a conservative is one who wishes to conserve... the constitution, the environment, public education, public protections, civil rights, democracy...etc. 
 The republicon party now mostly wishes to erode, challenge, change or do away with all these things in the name of the free market and the economic growth of big business. In recent history to be a republicon is to be a radical, the polar opposite of conservative. IMO republicons of late could better be described as free market anarchists. The only thing they truly want to "conserve" are their profit margins.

that just about sums it up :)


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: neue regel on May 13, 2008, 06:24:28 AM
Quote
By definition a conservative is one who wishes to conserve... the constitution, the environment, public education, public protections, civil rights, democracy...etc.
 The republicon party now mostly wishes to erode, challenge, change or do away with all these things in the name of the free market and the economic growth of big business. In recent history to be a republicon is to be a radical, the polar opposite of conservative. IMO republicons of late could better be described as free market anarchists. The only thing they truly want to "conserve" are their profit margins.

Cite examples, please, of big business making an effort to do away with civil rights for 'profit margins.' How about democracy? Public protections?


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: freethinker on May 13, 2008, 07:26:39 AM
Cite examples, please, of big business making an effort to do away with civil rights for 'profit margins.' How about democracy? Public protections?
Sigh ... too easy new rule. The immunity for telecoms bill recently narrowly defeated, in a vote largely along party lines, conveniently hits all three you asked for.


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: neue regel on May 13, 2008, 07:30:12 AM
How did that help their 'profit margin?'

Your words, not mine...


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: freethinker on May 13, 2008, 07:45:53 AM
 I really didn't expect you to understand this NR ... If a corperation is sued or found guilty of breaking laws of privacey or constitutional protections out of what column would the award or fine be paid??
 Clearly this legislation was designed to protect their money.


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: neue regel on May 13, 2008, 07:55:21 AM
Quote
Clearly this legislation was designed to protect their money.

Yes. And WTC 7 was 'clearly' a demolition, or so we're told. 'Clearly' is used when real evidence is absent.

Were you as concerned with violations of civil rights, democracy, and constitutional protections when 900 FBI files illegally ended up in the White House in the 90s? How about IRS audits of those unfriendly of the Clinton administration which is a clear abuse of power?

Can you produce ANYONE who had rights violated by the telecommunication industry? I've about had it with this 'loose change' approach to connecting the dots.


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: freethinker on May 13, 2008, 08:23:20 AM
 Some lovely misdirection and strawman argument there Mr. New Rule.
  Well what would the legislation make them immune to, if not monetary suit awards or fines? Does that not protect their profit while giving them permission to disregard  the law? It certainly wouldn't give them immunity to negative public opinion as they play ball with big brother in defying the constitution. The dots connect themselves as the constitution is pushed aside and corperate money is protected simultaneously.  Any time a select group is given immunity to the constitutional restrictions all others are subject to, EVERY Americans rights are violated. This is a matter of principals, there is no need to cite examples. Frankly the American people have about had it with this " you must give up your rights and freedoms to be safe" crap.


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: neue regel on May 13, 2008, 08:32:30 AM
Have there been lawsuits alleging rights violations with dollar amounts made public? What does the communication companies stand to lose financially?


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: freethinker on May 13, 2008, 09:31:26 AM
 You should ask those who proposed the immunity legislation that question neue. Judging by how pissed off junior was there was a lot on the line. They had to have something in mind when this very unusual immunity legislation was put before congress. The very worst part about this is, the top secret, covert nature of the operations. Who knows what this administration could, or would or have already done with private communications intercepted without the knowledge of either party. They have already demonstrated how they will use any power they have for partisan political advantage without restraint or conscience. The proposed immunity was to be retroactive so one can only surmise that some pretty nasty things have already been done, and they want to cover the ass of their conspiratorial sources.


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: neue regel on May 13, 2008, 09:57:29 AM
Quote
You should ask those who proposed the immunity legislation that question neue.

I appreciate your willingness to admit you don't know.

Quote
They have already demonstrated how they will use any power they have for partisan political advantage without restraint or conscience.


Do you have any evidence to back this up? Has Bush used the IRS to intimidate? Has he used the secret service, private investigators, the FBI to shake down Murtha, Kerry, Kucinich, Michael Moore, Alec Baldwin, Charlie Scheen, Cindy Sheehan? Has Air American been audited? Keith Olberman? The NYTs. The Washington Post, the Seattle Times, the LA Times?


Anything?


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: freethinker on May 13, 2008, 10:45:29 AM
 That is the point we don't know. But deductive reasoning and the retroactive nature of the legislation would tell, even the slowest among us, that violations have been committed.
 What we DO know is that junior wants to make exceptions to the law and the constitution to protect huge corporations from something they have done. Even though they haven't been caught yet. The evidence that laws have been broken lies in the desire to make the immunity retroactive.
 The indictment of wrongdoing lies in the defense!
 The  precedent of their willingness to subvert the constitution to gain partisan political advantage I refer to is, the AG firings and the attempt to change the requirement of congressional approval of replacements as was hidden into the patriot act.
 Observation of the facts reveals a pattern of contempt for the constitution by this administration, and a desire to subvert its intentions by underhanded means.


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: neue regel on May 13, 2008, 10:53:28 AM
So to indict the communications companies without evidence and level a fine against them that will be paid out of corporate profits IS premature, you will admit?

Any other examples?


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: freethinker on May 13, 2008, 11:01:56 AM
 What I'm saying is, they definitely need to be investigated and the constitution needs to be upheld. The whole point of retroactive immunity is so no investigation will go forward. Who is going to investigate if immunity has been granted?


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: neue regel on May 13, 2008, 11:23:31 AM
Quote
they definitely need to be investigated and the constitution needs to be upheld

Is there evidence of wrong doing or is this a fishing expedition?


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: freethinker on May 13, 2008, 11:44:34 AM
 Here is a post I recently read by a Denver Lawyer who wishes to remain anonymous :
 
Quote
The posturing of advocates for immunity notwithstanding, whether the administration's requests were in violation of the applicable laws was not a close question. Although this has largely been flushed down the memory hole, Qwest refused to cooperate with the government and demanded that proper legal procedures be followed before it would proceed. Qwest's attorneys did not think that the government's proposed course of action was even arguably within the scope of the law. AT&T and Verizon (whose combined revenues last year were approximately $150 billion) could easily have consulted with qualified counsel and determined the same thing. Contrary to the breathless hysteria about cooperating with the government in "emergencies," the program at issue was developed over several months and operated for multiple years, requiring the involvement of hundreds, if not thousands, of people. It was not the situation of a police officer running up to an individual on the street and saying that he or she must do something NOW with no opportunity for reflection or consultation.

I should also add that I primarily do defense work and therefore am generally sympathetic to allegations of meritless claims, over the top punitive damage awards, etc. However, there is a very fundamental problem with any party getting a law changed to retroactively immunize it for unlawful conduct that it has all but confessed to. When the parties seeking immunity are multi-billion dollar corporations that have donated lavishly to members of Congress, it becomes even more troubling and damaging to people's confidence in the justice system. Indeed, there's a term for countries in which the wealthy can purchase immunity for themselves: "banana republic".
  He pretty well sums up the situation from a legal point of view.
 To compleat your metaphor neue, there is no need to go on a fishing expedition when the "fish" have already jumped in the boat trying to convince you that they should not be caught.



Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: neue regel on May 13, 2008, 11:51:08 AM
Quote
  He pretty well sums up the situation from a legal point of view.

How can an attorney in Denver, without the benefit of one minute of testimony, make a judgment?

ps: I find it amusing his implication of Congress...a Democrat controlled Congress, at that.


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: freethinker on May 13, 2008, 12:18:21 PM
 He was giving legal opinion on the legality of a published practice not making judgement on a specific case.
 The word you seem to be searching for  in your last sentence is Democratically controlled congress. You have mistakenly used the noun for the adverb. You see the verb in the sentence is "controlled" and an attempt to modify a verb with a noun really makes no sense. Its just bad grammer.


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: neue regel on May 13, 2008, 12:22:37 PM
Quote
The word you seem to be searching for  in your last sentence is Democratically controlled congress. You have mistakenly used the noun for the adverb. You see the verb in the sentence is "controlled" and an attempt to modify a verb with a noun really makes no sense. Its just bad grammer.

I'm so turned around to what that 'other party' wants to be called that I can't even see straight...sorry!!


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: freethinker on May 13, 2008, 12:59:49 PM
 Its a common, though commonly intentional, mistake made often by otherwise well spoken pundits of the right wing. It is a slap in the face of the "other party" intentionally denying that the the root of the word Democrat is democracy, at the expense of good grammer. Although as a member of that other party I would not discourage conflating the party affiliation with the process.


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: neue regel on May 13, 2008, 01:05:52 PM
Funny thing is, is started typing 'Democratically' and then thought...no...that's not right. It's 'Democratic' controlled.

But isn't it both since Congress is controlled because of an election that was done 'democratically' and is held by the party of 'Democrats?'

See...turned around!!   :D


Title: Re: Obama to declare victory May 20
Post by: freethinker on May 13, 2008, 04:55:04 PM
Yes, a Democratically controlled congress is controlled by the Democrats who were elected democratically.( Note the use of capital D or small d changeing the meaning from party to process.)