IAP Political Forum

Hello, everyone here! On May 12th, a dastrous earthquake hit Sichuan, China. Many people there lost lives, families, homes..... Please help them with your donations and your kindness will be remebered.
Thanks.
Augustus

Following contents are from http://www.cctv.com/english/20080514/102783.shtml
China Red Cross: Now! Donation for earthquake in Sichuan
WATCH VIDEO
Source: CCTV.com | 05-14-2008 10:05
Special Report:   Strong quake jolts SW China

The Red Cross hotline number is +86-10-65139999 & +86-10-64027620


Cash Donations: Payment by mail

Red Cross Society of China

Add: 8,Beixinqiao San Tiao Dongcheng District Beijing 100007 China

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Cash Donations: Money Transfer

RMB Account:

Bank: Industrial and Commercial Bank of China,DongSiNan Branch,Beijing

Acct.Number: 0200001009014413252

Acct Name: Red Cross Society of China

Address: No.147 Dongsi South St.

Beijing, China

Zip Code: 100010

Swift Code: ICBKCNBJBJM

USD Account:

Bank: China CITIC Bank Beijing Jiuxianqiao Sub-Branch

Acct.Number: 7112111482600000209

Acct Name: Red Cross Society of China

Address: C&W Tower. No.14,

Jiuxianqiao Street, Chaoyang District，

Beijing, China

Zip Code: 100016

Swift Code：CIBKCNBJ100

TEL:86-10-64319780

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Cash Donations: In-person Donations

Please send money directly to Red Cross Society of China or any of its branches, and provide them with your address.

Print the donor's name and address clearly so a receipt can be mailed to you.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

In-Kind Donations

Please send items directly to a local Red Cross branch or to a Red Cross in a disaster-affected area.


 

Editor:Du Xiaodan

Donations are fantastic, but I would caution anyone in the US against transferring money via wiretransfer to any bank in China.  This is very typical of scams.  CCTV is the state-owned media company.  It will be a cold day in hell before I would contribute to a mouthpiece for Communist dictatorship.

If you want to donate, donate to a local charity or a local branch of your Red Cross with directions on how they can use your donation.

Do not send money directly to China.

You can donate to the American Red Cross here:  http://american.redcross.org/site/PageServer?pagename=ntld_main

Why should I donate money to a super-power Great Republic of Fantastic Development ?
First, those propaganda officers insulted us about how China will crush the rest of the world with their greatness.
I understand that this is a case of humanitarian compassion and I don't mean to sound cruel, but I didn't donate zilch when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans. I did donate some money for Red Cross though, when that Tsunami hit the South-East Asia, 2 years ago.

Besides, the Chinese government is damn rich. Let them sell some of those few trillion $ U.S. treasury bills.

To those selfish people:
Please remeber, we can survive this disaster without your donations.  Because we have survived for many times without your help.
But your help will be remebered for your true humanity and kindness if you have.
This post is for test, testing your heart, testing your humanity, testing your honesty, ...
No excuses at all; Red Cross does not belong to any governmental branches...
Chinese government is much better than you people think.

I am a people live in ChenDu Sichuan China. lots of people died in the earthquake. But I see the people helping each other to out of danger. I must say thanks form my deep heart to all the people who help or support us in the Disaster.

The US should send NO MORE than $5 million.

That's all they sent us for Katrina.

-Qatar has decided on the distribution of about $60 million of a $100 million gift...

-Saudi Arabia, which pledged $100 million...

-including $400 million from Kuwait...

-Among the major donations received were nearly $100 million from the United Arab Emirates; $5 million from Bahrain, $5 million from China;  $3.8 million from South Korea; $2 million from Taiwan; $1 million from Brunei; and $1 million from Nigeria.

Source (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-02-qatar-katrina_x.htm)

I donated today to the Chinese Earthquake Appeal at the bank I bank with. You always wonder whether the money you donate goes to where it should, but donating to well known organisations probably gives you greater peace of mind.

I must say that I feel more confident donating to China than Burma. At least China is open about it and reasonably transparent. The neglectful way the Burmese government has acted towards its own people has been absolutely disgraceful.

The Chinese death toll is expected to go way past 50,000. Absolutely horrific. It is hard to comprehend numbers of that magnitude.  :(

You're right.   Americans, no doubt, and the American government will contribute much more to this than the Chinese did to any relief efforts to benefit Americans.  Because that's in our nature.  We're a generous people.  As we speak, American military is moving into Burma - another cruel totalitarian dictatorship, like China - and is giving aid there.

And if people want to contribute to the Red Cross, they should contribute to their local Red Cross branches.  They should never wire transfer money to a Chinese bureaucracy, the Chinese government, or any Chinese agency.  Ever.  Under no circumstances.  At best, it's a fraud.  At worst, your enabling a brutal Communist dictatorship that suppresses its population.

Have you really visited China, Stephen?

And if you have, how on earth can you have concluded that it's still a 'communist dictatorship' rather than basically pretty capitalist, these days?

More times than I care to remember.

My company has branches in Chengdu, Shangai and Beijing.  In Shanghai, we have offices in Pudong, Zhabei, and Puto districts.  I forget the district names of the offices in Beijing and Chengdu.  In Beijing, I'd say it's near the trash dump, but that wouldn't narrow it down any.  The whole city is a trash dump.

The Chinese government is a brutal, oppressive dictatorship.  It severely represses its people, limits their freedom, dominates every facet of life.  You can't breathe in China without a license from the government - although God only knows why you'd want to breathe polluted Chinese air.

Tell you what.  Write your local Communist party leader and demand freedom for Taiwan.  Let me know how that goes.  Better yet, stage a protest for Taiwanese freedom in Tianamen square.  Let me know how free you are to express your views.

Or, better yet, write a letter to the editor and discuss Hu Jintao's wife's love of fancy jewelry and how Chinese taxes are paying for her extravagant lifestyle. 

Have fun!

Check out my pictures of where I live on the 'why I won't move to China' thread.  Not everywhere is a 'trash dump'

By the way, how is a country meant to develop without going industrial first?  ???

You completely avoided the issue of political freedoms.  Way to dodge and avoid the issue!

Again - are you free to protest against your government?  Are you free to demand Taiwanese independence?

Obviously not -- when Chinese university students demanded democracy they were gunned down in the streets.  When the Uighurs demanded autonomy they were similary executed.

Do you have freedom of the press in China?  Do you have unrestricted acces to the internet?  No.  There are no such freedoms in the horrid dictatorship that is Communist China.

Who wouldn't want to live in China?  (http://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2007/06/19/China372x192.jpg)

I am here out of choice.  I come from somewhere that many people risk their lives to get to (the UK) and will be going back there this summer for a couple of years - but I know in many ways I will miss China.  It does have its negatives, but your representation is also false.  I don't earn a huge sum of money out here, but I do like the simplicity of living here.

However, I like the way you have chosen a picture of a really scabby area as 'representative'.

Here's where I reside.

(http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1572/jinshitantripmatt045tu8.jpg)
(http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1309/jinshitantripmatt019ni0.jpg)
(http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/395/viewfromdaheishan1tk4.jpg)
(http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/7427/viewofdalianfrompark1iu1.jpg)
(http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1795/viewofdalianfrompark2qr4.jpg)

btw.  My friend went back to the UK with his wife about 3 years go.  They have since come back to China as they were finding it too hard to afford the cost of living in Britain.

By the way.  About political freedoms - this is true.  But I also think you'll find that the scope for criticism of the government is wider than you might think.  You just have to be clever about the way you do it.  There are articles even on China Daily which raise many issues such as those you mention, they just do it subtly.

As to independence/separatist movements - what about Waco? Wounded Knee? The Indian uprising in the 70s? And in the UK... many Indians were imprisoned on the Andaman Islands just for demanding independence.  The Maumau were also brutally put down. 

When you think about what China was like 30 years ago, where it is now is incredible.  It's improving all the time, and people seem to feel pretty good about that.  In the UK, there's a constant negativity.  "The country's going to the dogs", people always seem to believe things are getting worse.  In China it's the opposite.

I don't see how you could describe Beijing as like a giant rubbish dump.  Seriously, from when I visited, it looked really modern and comparable with a western city.

I get nervous when those defending Communist regimes use phrases like:

-It does have its negatives, but.......

-About political freedoms - this is true.....

-You just have to be clever about the way you do it......

-they just do it subtly.....

Goebbels would be proud.

Hold post for link edits.  Trying to see if this will make it by the spam filter.

You complain that my picture of a filthy Chinese city isn't representative.  I think it is and here's why:

(http://geology.com/news/wp-content/uploads/china-pollution.jpg)

(http://www.treehugger.com/NASA%20pollution-jj-002.jpg)

(http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/gsfc/earth/pictures/2001/0420duststorm/asia_dust_storm_full_sm.jpg)

Chinese pollution is rampant.  It's so filthy that it is now spreading to other nations, and across continents!

Nearly every Chinese national that works for my company wants to leave there and stay in the United States.  Invariably, they state that they enjoy American freedoms.  China is still the horrible, repressive, brutal dictatorship that it was when it masacred the democracy demonstrates.  Two years ago it massacred men, women and children in Uighur villages for the audacity of practicing religion and objecting the the brutality of the government in imprisoning their leaders without trials.

You can try to make moral equivalencies with other countries, but it falls way short.

In America, I'm free to criticize the government.  In China, you are not.
In America, I'm free to practice religion.  In China, you are not.
In America, I'm free to listent to whatever media I chose.  In China, the government controls all media.
In America, I'm free to associate with whomever I chose.  In China, you are not.
In America, I'm free to vote for my government.  In China, the government is imposed upon you by force.
In America, I'm free to engage in business without undue government burden.  In China, the government controls everything.
In America, I don't have to live in filth and pollution.  In China, you breath filth and pollution everyday.

You can try to rationalize your government's brutal, totalitarian practices all you want.  You still fail.

Is a country's political ideology or history relevant though when deciding whether to donate or not?

I just have the thinking that people are people.Innocent victims of earthquakes shouldn't be discriminated against because of their government. I would like to think that if I were caught in an earthquake or natural disaster, then people around the world would want to lend a hand to help.

I think it is more of an exercise of goodwill than political evaulation but maybe I am being too oversimplistic.

For me, the major deterrant for donating to a cause would be that the money does not go the victims it is meant to help, and is instead wasted on corruption or worse used to prop up brutal dictatorships who could not give a toss about the people they govern. This is the reason why I would not donate to Burma.

Thank you all who decided to donate.
I personally consider it's time to put away ideology difference, since we donate to the victims, instead of the government.
Regarding the government, I think Chinese people have more say than people from other countries.
They know well if the government is good.

I am a very ordinary Chinese citizen in Chifeng, Inner Mongolia. I simply work in a private company.
The moderator may know my location from my IP. ;)

Some say many Chinese people would rather go to the U. S. than stay in China. That's true because  in their mind they can earn more money in the U. S.  Similarly, many American companies would rather build more branches in China than in the U. S. It's very normal people want to earn more money.

Some say China's pollution is considerable. Yes, it's true. Do you think only China has a pollution problem? No, in fact, it's a common problem that all modern countries are facing. Say.

Any way, pollution and ideology are never the reason not to help common victims in disaster...
That's my opion. Thanks again.   

Again, international donors should never donate via wiretransfer to any Chinese government entity, CCTV, or the Chinese Red Cross.  Your donation is going straight to the pockets of the Chinese dictators.  If you want to donate, then donate to a local branch of your Red Cross, with instructions on how to use the money.  That way you can have at least some confidence that your donation will reach the people intended rather than line the pockets of Communist dictators.

And I'm very confident that Americans will, once again, be the most generous people on earth.  Whether it's the tsunami, the Burma cyclone, or the Chinese earthquake - it'll be the Americans doing the lion's share of international relief.

One thing that is absolutely sure is that you will not want to donate money on a bank account number (or a link to) found on an internet message board, even if it's posted by a known user.

Donate is a good gesture but it should be made through the brick-and-mortar office of a wellknown organisation like the red cross etc.
Not on an webpage.

Now the problem with China is that they work like crazy for the maximum production at the lowest cost possible without having a safety net to cushion for disasters, crashes and unforeseen events.
Not only in China but this example is typical.

I'm sorry to the Chinese to say that, but everything they produce will just hold for of few uses then will fall into pieces in a pathetic manner. It seems all their country is like that: It works well until it get broke.
I don't want to blame the victims. I'm very sad for these innocent poeple who certainly did their best all their live. The problem is not them. The problem is how industrial chinese production is done, materialy.
If dams are cracking, it's not because workers were lazy, it 's because the directors of the project decided to save money by building something thiner with cheap cement and less iron, the goal being the production of X mW, not to do something earth quake proof.
That's just one example.

i offer the source link, and CCTV is a formal offical television website.
Amazingly, you are clever and never get your work broke.
But your predjudice shoud be changed. Easy predjudice reveals a man's bad education. 
If you like to donate, you can also donate to the International Red Cross to help the victims.
If you do not like to donate, do as you are pleased.

CCTV is just a mouthpiece for the dictators.  Like the old Soviet TASS "news" service, or the Soviet newspaper Pravda.  There's no reason any reasonable person outside China should believe a word of anything posted at a "CCTV" website.

Like I said, if you want to make a donation, great.  Give it to your local Red Cross.  Never under any circumstance send money directly to China, unless you feel like financing President Hu's wifes expensive jewelry purchases.

All donors should take precautions against fraud and scams.

This is exactly right.

The death toll, unfortunately, is exacerbated to poor construction and shoddy building practices.

Source:  http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_9261984?source=most_emailed


This is pretty typical of China.  Shoddy construction, low quality.  Think of all the recent export problems.  The toy recalls.   The clothing recalls.  The medicine recalls.  The Chinese were putting poison into pet food for heaven's sake.  The article continues:


And this is the point.  All those images of children trapped, tragic as they are, that is the result of poor planning, poor codes, poor inspections and poor construction.  Another bang-up job by the Communist dictators!


American schools would remain standing.  The poorly built Chinese schools collapse, killing potentially thousands of children.

The Communist dictators fail again.  But of course no Chinese people are free to complain or demand better.  Those kind of protests will get you imprisoned if you're lucky - executed if you're not so lucky.

simply , if you think you have no money , you could speak out directly , we won't discriminate you on this ISSUE.

Well, if you didn't even bother trying to read my post, there's no point in even arguing this.

I am British.  I am from the UK.  The Chinese government is not my government.

I am from 'ackney, in London, UK.  There are plenty of things that I miss about it.

On the other hand, there are plenty of things I will also miss about China.

I know I will miss going outside in the warm evenings and seeing old people dancing in the street.  That's fantastic.  Both my grandmas never leave the house.

I will miss hospitality the likes of which I have never, ever met in 'what are you looking at, you ****?' Britain.

And please enlighten me, once again, in which way China is 'communist'?

I had a mate who lived in Yugoslavia in the early 80s.  The way he described that, that is what I always think of when someone says 'communist': shops with completely empty shelves, bar two jars of jam, and suchlike.

China is nothing like that.

People in China are seeing their standard of living increasing at a rate which is completely unprecedented in modern history.

My wife is from a very poor area of rural Hubei.  When she was a kid, she had to live off a spoon of sugar a day, as that was all her parents could afford.  Now, people eat bloody well, far better than most people in the UK do

*pats stomach*

Seriously, all most people in Britain can afford to eat is like a pitiful bowl of cereal in the morning, then some crappy sandwich for lunch, then some wanky microwave meal or something in the evening. 

People in China eat seriously well.  We're going back to blighty for a couple of years so I can do a bit more study.  But my wife is seriously worried about the cost of food, compared with China.

And if you think I'm anything like Goebbels, you're a fucking twunt.

I just don't think any of you are representing China at all fairly.

It is an aesthetically ugly place.

That isn't the point though.

It's also very impressive as developing countries go, and the level of interference for the average Chinese citizen, by the state, is pretty much zero, by my observations.

By the way, the poor building standards are nothing whatsoever to do with 'communism'.  In fact, they are more to do with the fact that the central government finds it hard to control all the remote regions.  This is true with many of the negative stories about China (e.g. "Land grabs", which are in fact illegal).  Hence the fact that many of the building developers are now being tried for this.

Irrelevant - apologists for dictatorships and totalitarian regimes sound the same wherever they come from.

It's not irrelevant.  Still, given that you seem to be unable to recognise nuance or subtlety, this debate isn't even worth having.

You are every bit the equivalent of the Chinese students chanting the chinese national anthem and thinking everything is absolutely peachy with their country.  You cannot see the world in anything but black and white.

There's really no use in even discussing this with you.

Apologies.  It has everything to do with the dictators.  The people are not free to set their own standards.  The people in Sichuan CANNOT get together and establish local building codes.  They cannot tell their own government how to build a school.  They have NO voice in determining where dams go.  They have absolutely NO recourse if they are forced to send their child (I was going to say children -- but Chinese forced abortions solve that problem, don't they?) to a slip-shod school made of toothpicks all because the Chinese government doesn't want to spend money to build quality buildings. 

Who can hold them accountable?  To whom will the Chinese government report now that their buildings have caused the deaths of thousands of schoolchildren.

No one.  Because thuggish Communist dictators don't answer to anyone. 

Of course, many folks lost their "only governmentally allocated" child in that rubble......

This sounds much like the old notion of good tsar, bad boyars.  It was just as untrue then in czarist Russia as is is today in China.  When something might cause a public relations disaster it's surprising how quickly the central government can act to look like they're doing something.  Their common failure to act is not always inability, but is rather an indifference to the depredations of other thieves while they themselves steal from their own people.

When China was communist it was because of communism. Soviet era buildings are crap and birdges must undertake complete renovations. No private apartement or other high rise building company would have dared build how they built under the Soviet Union, and I'd bet in the Chinese soviet union it was the same.

The big difference with post-communist China and post communist Russia and Eastern Europe is that China still had to race against their out-of-control demographic growth (+300 millions in one decade) and be under pressure to build new apartments, schools,  hydroelectric stations and other things as fast and as cheap as possible.
They used this mentality and know-how of do-it-fast-and-cheap in their exportation industry as getting foreign devises was also to some extent an urgent priority in the newly open market.

Japan suffers from earthquakes of similar magnitudes, yet their death tolls amount in the hundreds in the worse case. That's because as their population have been stable and slightly decreasing they could afford to improve existing installation, focus on high quake-proof building norms and pull down the less safe premises.
The Japan system is not better, but the circumstances are totaly different.

On other threads someone argued that raising 1.3 billion poeple was an achievement. I gave this very exampl as to why it was not true.

UPDATE:

source (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080517/wl_nm/quake1_dc)

Except that around 1800 people died in Katrina and upwards 50000 probably died in the earthquakes.  Katrina was a minor "incident" in comparison ...

**** you should crawl back under the rock you came from, instead of sabotaging honest  pleas for help. Shame on you ...

Guess you **** americans need your money for guns so you can kill more Iraqi kids ...

You.....uh.....sure convinced me.....*****!!!

Well I kind of figure you for a lost cause, but there are others

as far as the donations go, I will be donating through the Red Cross as always.  China is going to learn a valuable lesson here about accepting aid from the world during this event:

1. Very rarely is help for free-something will be asked in return some time some where
2. The countries that provide aid through human capital (Japan and others) will be conducting methods of information gathering outside the "humanitarian" scope.

This is the reason why the US refused the aid of human capital from Cuba, Greece, and others.

Its a shame, but the world still operates through the prism of realism.  Nation states ALWAYS act in their own interst.

thank you all american friends who donated to the victims. We have seen your kindness.
You kind donations out of charity are well appriciated by Chinese people, which proves American people in general are kind.
S. Heroin, please do not be disappointed, though your hitler-like image has not function as Hitler itself. But remember you still have
a lot of opportunities to be a kind and humane person if you give up the predjudice. 

if you love people at all your best, and people will love you at all their best.
If we love each other, the world will be better. . 
Thank you all, those kind people.

Of course -- when the rubber hits the road, it's the Americans that come running.  Whether it's the tsunami, the Burma cyclone, or the Chinese earthquake, or whatever third-world destitute country that gets hit by natural disaster, without fail, it's the Americans that have boots on the ground.


You can always tell when people have nothing of value to say - the comparisons to Nazi's and Hitler come out.  Although I absolutely no clue what you are trying to say, if you hint that I am "hitler-like" because I refuse to contribute through Chinese bureaucracies, then that's fine.  Like I've said all along, if you would bother to read and understand, is that I think it's great for people to make donations to the victims.  However, NO ONE should contribute through the dictatorship's bureaucracies.  If you want to make a donation, do so through your local, brick and mortar Red Cross office.

Do NOT under any circumstance wire money to China.  It's likely a scam in the first place, and even if it's not a scam, why would you want to purchase Mrs. Hu another jade necklace.  I think she has enough expensive jewelry.  There is absolutely NO assurance that your money will reach the victims.  Much better to go through local agencies.

Augustusq, perhaps if you actually had a free and open government, then I would feel more confident in sending donations there.  Why don't you go protest for a democratic government?  Oh wait, you can't.  You're Chinese - that means you live in political oppression under a dictator.  Have fun with that.

Garbage.  Pure garbage.

The death toll is high only because the Chinese government builds schools that in America would be condemned.  I've already posted statements from architects that in the US, even if a 7.9 earthquake occurred, it wouldn't have this level of destruction.  The Chinese government, once again, is responsible for the deaths of thousands of their citizens due to sub-standard building codes and using shoddy building materials.  Unfortunately, the good citizens of this oppressive regime can't protests against their government or ask for better buildings.  Communist dictatorships don't take well to dissent.  Or proper building codes.

Maybe those building engineers are about as smart as you ...

Ooooo.  Good comeback.  What are you, like 9 years old?  What's your next post, "I'm rubber; you're glue?"  Or, "Sticks and stones?"

You are very clever.  "You stink!"  Is that your next post? 

Nevermind -- I just read Ahk's posts.  I shouldn't feed the troll, as they say.  Troll on!  I think there's a bridge near with billy goats crossing over.  Go!  Go now!  For the good of storybook's everywhere.

Remeber the Los Angeles earthquake in 1994 - that one was a 6.4 ? 

Do you know the difference between 8.0 and 6.4 ?

That's 40 time stronger mate ...

Facts, sir.  Let's deal with facts.  Most of your posts seem to be made up crap.

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/regional/nca/wg02/losses.php

This is a threat/loss estimation by the United States Geological Services - it estimates the impact of a 7.9 earthquake in San Francisco, the downtown bay area. 



Hmm...  7.9 earthquake in a major metropolitan city.  Most scenarios have projected fatalities at several hundred.

In shoddily built Chinese, low-quality, sub-standard hovels, the same earthquake kills tens of thousands.

The problem with mitigating the effects of the earthquake is that the Chinese government builts deathtraps for its schoolchildren.  I'd love to see the good people of Sichuan get treated better.  But they won't.  They're ruled over by dictators.  The government dictators don't care what's best for their people - as long as they maintain power and their tax revenues.

 :police:Parts of this conversation have been split to  
EU purchase of US wepons (http://www.itsallpolitics.com/forum/index.php?topic=2254.0)

You never fail to deliver a good load of BS do you ?

Are you talking about the same american building engineers that designed and assessed the security of the World Trade Center, The dams around around new orleans and the Minnesota highway bridges.  None of those were supposed to come down given the damage they were taking.

Your so called civil and building engineers are making the same mistakes as the chinese, however luckily you haven't had a big quake like the one in China.

Again clean a bit in your own backyard before  bitching about others, but I guess bitching is all you are good for ...

Way to bring up irrelevant, off-topic examples.  Let's recap the discussion so far:

1.  Me:  The effects of the earthquake are exacerbated because the Chinese buildings are sub-standard.  Backed up by source articles and expert opinion.
2.  You:  No - a 7.9 earthquake would be devastating.   No source.
3.  Me:  No - a 7.9 earthquake in a major metropolitan area in the US would cause at most a few hundred casualties.  Backed up by source article and expert opinion.
4.  You:  No.  9-11!  Katrina!

How, exactly, does that refute my point that in America, a 7.9 earthquake would have, as expertly predicted, several hundred casualties at best -- while the experts are stating that sub-standard building collapses in China are responsible for thousands of deaths?

It doesn't.

Facts -- present facts from the USGS or other reputable, non-biased experts that show that a 7.9 earthquake would result in 50,000 deaths.  I have shown you from geological experts that it would result in a few hundred.  Moreover, I have shown that the sub-standard hovels in China are responsible for thousands of deaths.

Your "responses" are non-substantive and do not address the issue at hand.

But thanks for playing.  Try again soon, ok?

To return to the original topic, donations are fantastic, but donors need to be wary of scams.  Already headlines are popping up of fraudulent donation scams:  Crooks use earthquake as fraud opportunity (http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/world/20080517TDY05307.htm)

Feel free to donate what you will.  I would NEVER recommend that you wire money to the Chinese government, or any agency or branch in China directly.  You are simply asking to be robbed at best, perhaps defrauded at worst.  If you feel you want to, donors should donate to their local Red Cross agency, with instructions on how to use the donation.

That way you can have some confidence that it will be used properly, and not go into the pockets of corrupt Communist dictators.

Your so-called experts probably have the same quality as the american building engineers that designed and assessed the security of the World Trade Center, The dams around around new orleans and the Minnesota highway bridges.  None of those were supposed to come down given the damage they were taking.

Your point is moot ...

Wow.  Another non-response.

Let's try this one more time, you seem slow on the up-take so I'll be generous.

I have two arguments that I have supported with non-biased facts and expert opinion:

1.  The casualties in China were exacerbated by sub-standard Chinese building practices which are the result of their poor government; and,
2.  A similar earthquake in America would yield only hundreds of casualties, while in China, tens of thousands have died.

Please post facts supported by expert, non-biased sources that refute either of those points.  You're obviously a troll (as you have been appropriately called out on other threads and supported by your bland insults here) and won't, but I thought I'd be honest and at least give you a chance.  It's big of me, I know.

It appears that corruption of the Communist dictators has also played a major role in the devastation caused by the earthquake:  China quake damage tied to corruption-expert. (http://in.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idINPEK29345620080514) 


Widespread, rampant corruption also appears to be a contributing factor to the deaths of thousands of Chinese.  Of course, Communism, corruption, and totalitarianism are almost synonymous.  I guess there's no surprise in that.

I don't deny that the buildings in China was substandard. It is clear that the critiscism on that point is growing also in china.

Where are you so-called unbiased experts ? I have repeatedly pointed out that such experts have been wrong in the past, in the USA as they were in China.   Given the damage of the 6.4 quake in 1994, the idea of a 7.9 quake with only a hundred or so casualties is redicolous. 

Again, what was the expected number of casualties from hurricane Katrina and the WTC disaster ? I suspect that "experts" where guessing much lower.

Stephen Hero and the word "unbiased" does not mix very well in the same sentencel.

And you're obviously a racist asshole (as you have been appropriately called out on other threads)

Ola, Cune.
I see you're back, man. Do you want to take it outside with me, to "The Inferno" ?
I am curious, specifically, who is brainwashing you, because they must be damn good.

Are you a racist asshole too, or just the standard american dumbass ?

Yes - China's buildings are substandard due to corruption, Communism, cronyism, and poor government.  It doesn't help that the totalitarian dictators do not permit the people to have a say in their government to determine building codes, etc.  Obviously you have no facts to refute my point.


I quoted the experts at the United States Geological Services above.  If care to provide a substantive critique of their analysis, please do so.  But your ramblings are irrelevant and do not address the underlying point -- in America, a 7.9 earthquake would not kill 50,000.  In China, it does.  It's a supplement to my point above that the earthquake death toll is high because of Chinese corruption, poor government and having a dictatorship for a government.


Cite anything that I've stated that is racist.  I will criticize any Communist dictatorship.  If that's racist, so be it.  I'm racist then, I guess.  Wow, you really got me.

Meanwhile, the good people of Sichuan are dying because their government is corrupt, brutal and totalitarian.  Cheers.

Let's get back to the original topic:

Why do think the same risk managers and building engineers that failed so miserably at predicting the collapse of the dams in New Orleans and the Twin Towers in New York, would do better in assessing the effects of an earthquake in California ? The fact is that you never had anything like an 8.0 quake since 1906, and the engineers won't have a clue.

But if it makes you feel safe to trust them, let's leave it at that ...

Great, we've made some progress in your concession that the substandard building codes led to the deaths of thousands of Chinese.  Not that it was ever a debatable point.

In response to your question, they didn't fail at predicting the collapse of the dams.  If you review the news accounts, you'll see that there were warnings of what a Category 5 hurricane could do to the levees.  It wasn't a failure of predicting - it was a failure of remedying the levess.  You're incorrect (again) on that point.  As to the WTC collapse, please provide the analysis that you claim fails or incorrectly predicts the damages caused by an airliner loaded with fuel crashing into the 85th floor.  You have provided nothing.  Further, the consequences of earthquakes have been well-documented and studied and American building codes have been changing continually in response to increasing measures as the science progresses. 

You've provided absolutely nothing of substance to refute the scientific conclusions drawn by the geologists and architectural experts at the United States Geological Services that have modeled the effects of a 7.9 earthquake in San Francisco.

So, please, please, post facts that refute their conclusions.  Not hovel about Katrina or the WTC.  Post specific findings that refute the USGS conclusion.

Facts, not argument.  Until then, I wait with bated breath.

If they failed to predict the collapse, they must have failure to predict the absence of maintenance.
Else why wasn't the city evacauated ... Why do you believe the maintence of the buildings and infrastructure in the earthquake are would be better ?

An if we should have a bit of fun again, do you want to discuss the rescue operation after Katrina and compare it to that after the recent Chinese earthquake ?

Still waiting on those facts.  They should be readily forthcoming.  Somehow it's hard to get them from you.

Please provide substantive facts that dispute the conclusions of the USGS study and model on the effects of a 7.9 earthquake.

Tick tock, come on.  I've asked repeatedly - all you give is drivel.

Why would I want to do that, I just observe that the judgement of other similar agencies miserably fail ...

Great.   Your inability to post any refuting facts, despite repeated requests, speaks volumes.

The discussion is then concluded that the brutal Chinese dictatorship exacerbated the death tolls in China through its corruption, bribery and substandard building codes.  Whereas a similar earthquake in the US would claim the lives of hundreds, in China, it claims the lives of tens of thousands.

That's the real problem in China:  its government.  Those earthquakes happen from time to time.  But because the Chinese government doesn't care about its citizenry, is corrupt, and because the citizens have NO input into the decisions of the dictatorship, tragedies like the earthquake are exacerbated.

If China was a free and open democracy with a clean government, tens of thousands of Chinese victims would still be alive.  The Chinese government has their deaths on its hands, particularly the deaths of those poor young children lost in those deathtraps of buildings they call schoolhouses.

Communism sucks.

If you are dumb enough to believe what you type, especially in light of other similar US agencies failing miserably in the past, then so be it ....

Cheers mate - I hope for your sake you live far away from the quake areas.

If a 7.9 earthquake ever hit, and I had to choose between being in San Francisco or being in Chengdu, I'll take San Francisco every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

The Chinese government is responsible for those deaths.

[quote authorAugustusq, perhaps if you actually had a free and open government, then I would feel more confident in sending donations there.  Why don't you go protest for a democratic government?  Oh wait, you can't.  You're Chinese - that means you live in political oppression under a dictator.  Have fun with that.
 [/quote]

I do not think I need a government as you have. My government is good.
Only two days ago, Chinese people gathered in the Tianmen Square to mourn the dead and support the government.
Perhaps you do not know. 

Stop arguing!!This thread is talking about lives not politics!!
If you wanna help us ,thank you very much!!
If you don't wanna help us,please respect lives!!
We really need your help,Please please please help us.

Is anyone really arguing against giving donations?  I certainly don't see them on this thread.  So they don't want to donate directly to an organization in China.  So what!  They're donating to organizations that are helping Chinese citizens, aren't they?  In fact I heartily encourage them to do so despite my loathing of what China's government stands for.

If people want to fault the government's laxness on earthquake safety issues for adding to the tragedy that is a separate issue, but certainly one worthy of our consideration.  As a longtime resident of California who knows a little about what survives an earthquake and what doesn't, the images alone show that newer buildings weren't up to snuff.   The local government officials who approved some of these seismically unsafe schools or looked the other way while people used shoddy materials should be held criminally liable.  I predict a couple token ones will be, but it probably won't change things materially.

Yeah, right - just like the US government is responsible for the deaths after Hurricane Katrina ...

Yes,something you talked about are problems we should considere.But didn't you see Chinese government are trying their best to survive??Our Premier Wen arrived Sichuan in two hours after the earthquake,when he talked to some victims,you even can saw tears in his eyes.And our Presider Hu arrived Sichuan several days later,when he talked to the soliders in heavy destroyed area,the aftershock came.He just stoped for a seconds and continued his speech.There have been over hundred aftershocks in Sichuan,but our most two important leaders still came to there to encourage the soliders,and to comfort the citizens in dangers.It is really great.Two days ago,the whole country mourning at 2:28p.m.,and when I stand in silent tribute at class,I heared the drivers sounded their horns on the road.I really touched.In last week,Not only my mum but also my roommates'mums cried everyday when they watching TV.The whole China are crying for the people who lost lives,for the people who lost their children,for the people who lost their parents,for the people who lost their lives when they helped others.
And at this time,what we need is your understand and your support.You know at this time,how meaningful if You come to this thread and say Come on,China etc.
Please stop criticism,at this time we really need you encouragement.If you don't wanna say any encouragement words,please keep a few days silent during our mourning days.
If you do that,i thank you from my hears.

It's a 8.0 earthquake

ffs ppl dead there, just stfu.
Natural disasters hit everywhere and certainly not to punish certain nation but all of us, if at all.

Communist dictators are great doing their best to survive.  If the Chinese government *really* wanted to help the people of Sichuan, they would abandon Communism and promote a free, open, democratic society where the people have autonomy over the actions of the government. 

The Chinese government is CORRUPT.  And that corruption has led to sub-standard buildings.  Those schoolchildren were going to school in deathtraps.  The Chinese government is responsible for those deaths.  If the Chinese dictators and Communists had cared one bit about the people there they would have built buildings that meet certain standards.  But the buildings built by the Communists are garbage.  They fell over quickly and killed thousands of people.

But that's what you get with Communism:  corruption and death.

You want encouragement?  I encouraged the Chinese to rise in revolt and put off their government, like they did in Tiananmen Square.  I encourage the Chinese people to demand democracy and clean government from their leaders.  I encourage the Chinese to insist and demand free speech, free association, free religion, free press and freedom to make personal decisions in their lives, such as where to live and how many children to have.

I encourage all those things.  Except, my only fear is, that like the poor people in Tiananmen Square, the Communist dictators will murder them, just like they gunned down hundreds of people in cold blood in the streets of Beijing.

No.  7.9.

It was a 7.9 earthquake.

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/eqinthenews/2008/us2008ryan/

Exactly right.  It was corrupt Communist officials, as well as the people having no say in how their government runs that exacerbated the death toll.  Like I said above, a similar earthquake in the US kills hundreds.  In China, it kills tens of thousands.  Those deaths are the responsible of the government. 

The Communists allow only one child in China - and then the good people of China have to entrust that one child to go to a school that is a deathtrap waiting to happen.  Totalitarian dictators never have the interest of the people at heart.

You're funny.  Thanks for the great laugh.  Your government is brutal.  Dissenters are thrown in jail.  Free speech is not allowed.  Certain religions are outlawed.  Your government forces mothers against their will to abort babies that the "good government" thinks are unnecessary.  Your government tyrannical rules over lands and areas where they have no business.  Your government kills people in the streets when they demonstrate against Communism.  Your government pollutes the earth in ways that make China ugly and nearly poisonous.  Your government has no respect for human rights.  Your government arrests Uighurs for merely practicing their religion and then kills anyone who demands their release.  Your government filters all internet and media sources.

Your government is awful, brutal and totalitarian.


You mean the dead people that your government killed in Tiananmen Square?  Those people?  You know, the ones that wanted democracy?  Did people gather and mourn them?

zhr,

Thanks for your input. China is living through realy difficult times and I agree it's not time for political discussion.
But this is a political forum (not on a charity forum) and so please forgive those who talk politics in a way that may seem displaced from where you are.

Best regards.