IAP Political Forum

I've heard a lot over how unfair it was, and part of me agrees. There is no concievable reason why a person like Samir Kantar, who's crimes are being repeated everywhere I see, should have been allowed out of prison. Furthermore, Israel should NOT have to exchange live prisoners for dead soldiers, who were only captured in cross-border raids.

But what I noticed, and tends to be a missing detail in ALL the other sources *I* have seen, was that in additon to the 5 living prisoners, Lebanon was given 199 bodies of dead Arabs. This is a sticking point that hasn't come up, except a passing reference I thought I heard on the radio and THIS (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080716/D91V6IV00.html) Associated Press article.

Now, I completely sympathize with the Israelis for having to give up 5 living prisoners in exchange for the bodies of 2 dead soldiers... but if the exchange was JUST over the dead bodies that both sides seem to have lying around, one might wonder who actually made out worse.

199 dead bodies? Really? Am I alone in my confusion?

It seems like the default position is to immediately condemn the Lebonese and sympathize with the Israelis - but I've never been a fan of the "default position" in any decission, hence my bewilderment over the way the exchange is being reported.

If nothing else, nobody walked away a "winner" or in any better of a position to bargain in the future.

Does anyone else have comments?

Kantar should have been executed long ago. The killings he partook in were barbaric and people that sick and twisted do not deserve to live on this earth, let alone be celebrated as a hero. As for, the other 4 prisoners, they were captured during the recent Hezbollah-Israeli war and their return seems to be a less contentious issue.

But I agree with your point that there are no winners in this exchange. The exchange of dead bodies should be a solemn reminder (more so to the Hezbollah camp) that war has grave consequences.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/07/200871774339294890.html

Al-Jazeera can say all they want about how Israel lost this war, but the people of Lebanon lost as well. Their economy was completely destroyed due to Hezbollah's unprovoked, illegal act of war and I guarantee you that Hezbollah has thought twice about carrying out such attacks again.

There is always a chance this exchange will act as a catalyst toward stronger ties between the two parties, but I doubt it.

As per usual, Israel seems to have to give up the most to get their own back. Next time, if I were to act like Hezbollah, Israel would kill all the live ones involved before the exchange.

... But Israel isn't Hezbollah and has the bitter moral high ground.   :(

No comment

I was actually looking forward to yours...

Sarcasm is only one of few things that brought you to moderation of 20 men forum.

mdma, STFU.

If you have nothing to say on a topic it is really moronic to post "No comment". Your quote above has nothing to do with the topic either and I hope Abraxas PM's you at the least. Insulting a Mod is not acceptable behaviour, but you probably won't last too long here in any event.   ;)


I do apologise to Abraxas for going off topic. Let's get back on the subject.

by 'no comment' i've meant that i am completely disagree with / shocked by Israeli actions.  I did try to post what i really think but it was too harsh so i summed it with 'no comment'.

thanks for your opinion though,

Perhaps, this is one of those examples previously discussed with mdma related to personal choices when the choices of ones government being in conflict?  In reality, neither mdma nor I have any realistic control of the actions other than to attempt to remove those from office who act against our personal conscience.  It is IMHO, incorrect to
insult individual posters as a result of uncontrollable governmental actions related to personal disagreements.

Maybe this article from the Jerusalem post, makes a far more valid contribution to the issue and explains the reason Israel's government made the decision for the clearly sad
occasion and what many would consider an unfair exchange?  One is also left to wonder about those in the U.S. who for different reasons feel the same about the invasion and occupation of Iraq?

Analysis: Only Israelis can fathom
Jul. 17, 2008
Herb Keinon , THE JERUSALEM POST
Much of what makes Israel unique and different needs to be understood to explain the grisly prisoner exchange that took place on Wednesday.

Israel freed a child-murderer and four prisoners of war, along with nearly 200 bodies of assorted terrorists and infiltrators, for coffins bearing the remains of two IDF reservists.

That asymmetrical "trade" and the possibility that it will encourage further kidnappings, or raise the price that Hamas is asking for Gilad Schalit, or remove any incentive for the enemy to keep Israeli captives alive, is not easy to explain abroad.

The complete article is on the link.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215330996531&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

Like Abraxas, I had confused feelings about this one too. At first I thought: "Wow, the Israelis must be mad!"

But then I remembered exactly what they did to get those soldiers back, i.e. launch an attack on Lebanon (who, by the way, did not fight back - Hezbollah did, but the Lebanese didn't) killing scores of people and then I realised the trade wasn't as asymmetrical as I first thought.

I think it sets a bad precedent.

A bad precedent indeed.  It is a reward - plain and simple.  It is also a massive propaganda victory for Hezbollah and a goodwill gesture from Israel the likes of which we will NEVER see from the other side.  And, we won't hear about how generous this was of Israel.  Instead, we'll hear that it was a sign of Hezbollah's "victory" and a win for the "resistance".  Yes, as Abraxas states there were 199 bodies that Israel "traded" for their two dead soldiers, but if anything, the deal should have stopped there.  Let us not forget that those 199 bodies represent 30 years of near-continuous conflict (roughly one body every 2 months) - hardly a sign of a massive body count. 

And of course Samir Kuntar vows to continue to fight with Israel (see links below).  Not only is this murderer greeted as a hero (sickening), but he finds it necessary to cause more bloodshed even after being given a second chance (which he should NEVER have expected).

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1003150.html
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6610e5e0-539a-11dd-8dd2-000077b07658.html

I see no wisdom in this decision.  But it proves one thing, Israel values their dead more than Hezbollah values their living.  With such a propensity to send young men to blow themselves up, I guess we shouldn't be suprised.

Hear! Hear! 

Problem is since Lebanese conflict media is the one what controls the country. Prior to that it wasn't that evident but now every Israeli sees that media does what it does.

As for young men, i believe by getting back soldier bodies Israeli government tried a naive trick to get modern soldiers belief in system but i think it is failed. Ppl in Israel because sissies because of prosperity and this is what Ahminijude means by "Zionist regime will destroy itself".

I thought is was my plucky attitude?

But in all seriousness, I was interested in what you had to say.


Quite precisely.


I wanted to hear mdma say that...


That's not entirely accurate.

Israel always seems to have a pile of imprisoned or dead Palestinians lying around:


Are all of these people in prison really there for legitimate reasons?

Furthermore, the Associated Press bios on the exchanged prisoners (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080716/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel_bio_box;_ylt=AkVEjQ.OQnQiN_hy0tlmAGgSewgF) don't go into ANY details about anyone's crimes (except Kantar's), simply labeling them "guerillas".

Look, I know it sounds like I'm sympathizing with Hezbollah here, but let me make perfectly clear that I'm not. I just don't think either group really walked away from the table with any greater of a deal and that neither party deserves any more condemnation then the other.


I think it proved Israel respects Israelis, whether living or dead. Hezbollah is no different.

I don't see any sympathy from either side over the deaths of their enemies.

I don't know if they are all in prison for legitimate reasons.  It seems perfectly reasonable to assume so as there is no shortage of people willing to fight against Israel.  It doesn't change the fact that those 199 bodies are from 30 years of conflict - not from last week or anything else.  But your point is taken - Israel does have a lot more prisoners and inflicts far more casualties.


So you see no problem with Israel releasing a murderer who says he will fight again for the bodies of two soldiers?  Israel got absolutely nothing out of this from a tactical perspective, where Hezbollah just got back 5 terrorists that will almost certainly fight again.  Not only this, but Israel is not even given the benefit of the doubt here.  As you've said, Hezbollah made out no better than Israel and many others will share that opinion.  So even when Israel gets the short end of the bargain, she can't even take solice in the fact that she was generous - nobody will see it that way.  Likewise, Hezbollah has a party and uses it as a massive propaganda victory. 

Israel has NOTHING to show for it, absolutely nothing.  In fact, they have less than nothing as they have strenghtened their enemies.  At least Hezbollah got 5 more terrorists back (one of them a convicted murderer).

Had the exchange been just bodies, then I think your position would be solid.  But I see no way to agree when Hezbollah is strengthened both tactically and politically from the deal.


But we aren't talking about respect, we're talking about value.  Israel was willing to send back 5 terrorists to get the bodies of two of their soldiers.  From an economic standpoint, it seems that the two dead Israeli's held a higher value than 5 living members of Hezbollah.  When you factor in how eager Hezbollah seems to be to send young men to commit suicide, I think we're seeing proof that one side values life over the other.  What would it have taken to get a live Israeli released?

i don't know how two of you related those events. Relating those events would be if i would imply my government being controlled by Arabs providing blogs where Israeli Arab officials cited. I blame my own country and mainly media for raping my country for long time. This is case where its unrelated.


You meant to say there is a pile of living POWs in Israeli prisons after never ending conflict that is made by Arabs compared to few dead Israeli bodies whom been exchanged with. Showing Israel in fact thinks few dead soldiers worth much living POWs. Believe it or not random women and children never get there. By that self conflict you just straightened Crypto's point at the end of your post.


You are not sympathizing with Hezballah but you legitimating its existence. Let me remind you that Lebanon attacked Israel without Israel having a direct conflict with Lebanon. Then Lebanon attacked again and lost territory. Then allowed PLO to rocket Israel from Lebanese cities and only THEN came out Hezballah. Hezballah is a resistance to Israeli defense thus resistance to Israeli existence. Not to mention Kuntar's winning statement that conflict between Israel and Lebanon is not about Sheeba Farms but much much after those farms. Don't tell me he never got pre-made speech by Hezballah. This is point, this is why Israeli prisons filled with Arabs. This is why i think Israeli army should kill any POW instead of me feeding them with my tax money most important we would act alike Arabs. Then comparison would be valid unlike yours that just proves Israeli military and moral superiority over Lebanon and Palestine but nothing more.

So you’re saying that it is legitimate to kill anyone who kills a child? Then you are wrong in criticizing Hizbullah because you think just like them. Israelis have killed so many Lebanese children and we still have to see one stand trial and serve time.

As for Kuntar’s execution, it is not their high morals that prevented them from killing him. Actually they had every intention of executing him. The political gain of keeping him alive was greater and they couldn’t let it pass, not even to avenge a child. Why would they when they can gain more from keeping him alive?





If this makes you feel better, you can keep telling yourself that even though it is not true. But at some point, you are going to get over that war and its results. I swear I only hear about it on this forum. Time hasn't stopped in WWII, nor in 1979, nor in July 2006.


Is it refusal to understand or incapacity to, I wonder?

 ::) Precedent??? This is common practice. In fact, this was the closure. The detainee file between Lebanon and Israel is now closed. This is what Hizbullah wanted.

And like it or not, the practice has always been a two-way street.

Israel had remains or prisoners and Hizbullah wants them back, it makes an operation against Israel.

Hizbullah had someone or remains Israel wanted, Israel kidnaps Lebanes citizens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_MIA_prisoner_exchanges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_MIA_prisoner_exchanges)

 

No you won't hear it, because Israel was NOT generous.

In July 2006, Israel did not want the exchange:

This is an extract from an anti-Hizbullah side in Lebanon:


The cost was also 160 Israelis (soldiers 121 I think, and the rest civilians)

When they failed, they did what they HAD to do, they were not generous, they were incapable of doing anythig else.

For every Israeli soldier, the cost was 700 dead Lebanese (100 from the exchange and 600 from the last war), and 80 Israelis.

Of course, generosity is relative  ;)

 

In counterpart, 2 Israeli soldiers in the same period. That's roughly 1 every....what....15 years!

Nice comment BTW crypto!

 
I see no wisdom in ANY Israeli decision  ;D


Where Are The Suicide Bombers? (http://Where Are The Suicide Bombers?) - Article written during the July war


You really need to update your data

Exactly Abraxas. They hate each other so much that each death from the other side is a gain to them

Here is a quote of the Israeli chief of staff after the Qana massacre  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_shelling_of_Qana) in 1996:


Better than Hizbullah? I don't think so.

BTW, notice that at first, this is what they said about the Qana massacre:


Only to change it later to say that Hizbullah was hiding there even though the UN said otherwise because it works with the likes of Crypto and Zenter and others.

The Qana massacre tally: 160 civilians killed.

Arabella , you misspelled 'We' with 'They'.
don't be so selfish with Quana accident, you had your time during 'Sabra and Chatila massacre' let others to enjoy as well.

Hey md, didn't you notice that I skipped your posts out of respect for your pain?

You weren't crying, were you?

How about we stop talking about the past and try to move on. Forget about who won what, who started what, who has the moral high ground, etc.


Both sides are only going to experience more pain if Hezbollah continues to refuse Israel's right to exist.

It's utter insanity to think there will ever be peace until Hezbollah agrees to let Israel exist in peace. So for those Lebanese who are bitter at Israel for inflicting so much pain, you all need to be just as bitter at Hezbollah and furthermore start demanding they accept Israel's existence.

Otherwise Lebanon will be utterly destroyed again and we'll be having the same exact conversation all over.

Hey I replied to what was there. If there was a prize for the most pathetic thread ever, this would be it. I had to interfere as I was taken by pity for the level of ignorance in some posts.

And it seems to me you were one of the first to mention the past. Maybe you got angry because my version of the past did not suit your prejudice and cannot help in your hate speech? There are many more versions of the past that you won't like. I am not sure you can handle them either.




[/quote]

Do some research and get some education. There are other sources to learn than the CNN.

I wasn't crying or whining . I did admit the fact my country got raped by my own ppl. Unlike Arabs like you are.

Fox ??? I bet they should watch Al-Manar. I bet there are awesome comedy shows about retarded Arab who sacrificed thousand of his own and in result almost got another civil war.

 

Don't confuse body counts with kindness - they are mutually exclusive.  Israel is a better fighting force, has better technology, combined arms tactics, and is capable of inflicting far more damage.  The fact is that Hezbollah is able to use civilians as a "shield" by mingling with the general population during conflict.  Israel has no choice but to fight to defend itself, and the consequence is going to be civilian casualties.  If you don't want them, convince Hezbollah to meet Israel on the battlefield or in a place where no civilians are present.  Israel would erradicate Hezbollah in such a situation, hence the reason Hezbollah mingles with civilians in order to make every Israeli counterstrike as deadly to civilians as possible.  This again proves that they have no respect for the lives of their "people".  It is a tactic used in order to play on sympathy for dead civilians - civilians that Israel would rather spare if they could.  Israel LOSES every time a civilian dies.  When Hezbollah kills an Israeli civilian, they declare it as a victory.  The two are not morally equal and as much as it pains you to believe it, Israel has the high ground.

 

I'm not responsible for Israel's superior military prowess.  The implication of the OP was that Israel racked up a huge body count and the point was that these 199 bodies were not part of last weeks culling of Muslims.  These bodies had been piled up over 30 years - likely all of them combatants against the Israelis.

 

That doesn't surprise me.



Hezbollah practically invented the suicide bomber - this is established fact.  The fact that they were not using them in the defensive conflict against Israel in 2006 doesn't change the fact that Hezbollah has employed this tactic for decades and will continue to do so.  Your own quote makes my point perfectly - I thank you:

"The focus for Hamas and Hezbollah is fighting Israeli forces, so they haven't been putting as much energy into sending a suicide bomber into Israel,"

Makes perfect sense to anyone who has ever studied conflict.  Suicide bombings are most effective against (you guessed it) soft, defenseless, civilian targets that are not expecting it.  It is predecated on the use of subterfuge and plays on Israel's propensity NOT to kill every Muslim it sees.  In a battlefield scenario, this is unworkable as Israel will shoot anyone approaching a tank, APC, or group of soldiers.  In the civilian environment, suicide bombings work because bus drivers don't kill Muslims as they board.

Your links don't prove anything other than the obvious.  Tactically speaking, nobody is surprised that suicide bombings were not used in the military campaign of 2006.  The element of surprise is crucial to suicide bombers and unless it is a pre-emptive initialization of hostilities, the suicide bomber loses his tactical advantage in open conflict because the ROE are much less stringent.   


Also note that this thread is titled "prisoner exchange" which is also a misnomer.  Prisoners were NOT exchanged as that implies both sides received prisoners.  Israel received BODIES.  Hezbollah got back terrorists who vow to fight again.

I haven't been posting here at all, but I wanted to say I'm glad to see you back Cedar.  I have missed you voice.  I'm glad you are ok!

Good to see you back again Cedar.  :)

Hope everything is going well for you. I look forward to hearing about the current issues in jplebanon.

Hi Biker, Jeri,

How's everything going?

Thanks for the welcome. I owe my comeback to a very hot day and a very strong headache that kept me inside  ;D

Doubt I will stay long as summer is best spent outside but it is always nice to see you all  :)

Crypto,

You put it best:


What I read is people who have no idea what they are talking about, including you.

People like md, me, or a hizbullah member are not expected to have the same perspective as someone who can look at the conflict from the outside.

But when I read people like you, I believe that you are just as brainwashed as you accuse others to be, and just as blood thirsty. You also believe that you get to decide what value each life has, and who deserves to live. You are no better than the people you judge.

For someone who gets all worked up when someone asks them to learn Spanish to communicate with non-English speaking Americans, I don't believe you are allowed to pass ANY judgment over someone who got worked up for being under occupation, tortured and killed by a foreign force in their own country.

You give Israel the right to fight with what it has and justify the massive body count that results because of that? Fine by me.

Hizbullah fought with what they had too. When they didn't have anything, they fought with their bodies. When they did have something they stopped.

Anyway, I am not defending Hizbullah. I even fought against them in the 80s.

But I do understand them because what they feel for Israel, I feel for Syria and the Jews feel for the Nazis.

The closest you have been to such feeling is when you were asked to learn Spanish. So multiply that by a billion and you still won't be even remotely close to what a Hizbullah feels for Israel or even a Jew feels for a Nazi.

Unless you know what you are talking about, you are just making a fool of yourself.

Interestingly Arab perspective on that. If you wanted a valid comparison it would be Hezballah hate Israel as Nazis hate Jews then it would be fine. I don't know why the term islamo-fascists created such resonance in your homeland. Just remember my pacifist German friend, you will eat as much shit as your Arab side effect named Hezballah spreads.

Nope. I maintain what I said. Israelis are to Hizbullah what Nazis are to the Jews.

1- Israel’s Forgotten Hostages:
Lebanese Detainees in Israel and
Khiam Detention Centre (http://archive.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150181997?open&of=ENG-390)

2- Israel Responsible for Abuses in Khiam Prison (http://www.hrw.org/press/1999/oct/isrl2810.htm)

3- Israel accused (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/1002463.stm)


In case anyone feels like reading anyway.

Prison was on occupied by Israel territory that was occupied in order to prevent Lebanese border raids ( like your national hero Samir Kuntar )  and rocketing by PLO/PLF of Northern Israel while prison itself was maintained by Lebanese, probably Christian who definitively without doubt share a love with Muslim population of Southern Lebanon. This is your continuation of Sabra and Shatila.

What are you trying to imply? That your Christian thousand Muslim torture is comparable to 6 million gasses and then burned?

Moreover your fact is ridiculous from its beginning since Hezballah became an offensive terrorist unit prior events in Khiam.

Now go educate yourself with reading what Amnesty thinks about any prison without DVD player inside the cell and nice speaking guards.

Thanks  :)




If it looks like a duck,......

An excellent proof,  a word of detainees.
I bet Lebanese drug dealers will praise Lebanese courts and prisons, oh wait you kill them.

I feel like my arguments were very valid counterpoints to what you had written.  There is no need to start getting nasty.


Right, I can see things more objectively.  I don't have a dog in this hunt, so I see what each side does and I am able to keep my personal feelings and biases out of it.  I've never said Israel was angelic, but I have said that I believe they hold the moral high ground in many cases.  Hezbollah has shown a DESIRE to kill innocent civilians.  As I've said before, when Israeli civilians die, Hezbollah sees it as a victory.  When innocent civilians die because of Israel's actions, they see it as a failure by and large.  To me, this speaks volumes.


I've accused someone as being brainwashed?  And now I am bloodthirsty, too?  Whatever gave you that idea?  I'm usually pretty careful about what I post and I'm pretty confident that I haven't given the impression that I'm bloodthirsty.  Again, I'm not sure where your hostility came from but it seems unprovoked to me.


I do?  No, I think if you reread my post you'll find that I disagreed with Israel releasing a convicted murderer in exchange for two bodies.  I also said that all things being equal, Hezbollah was big winner in this deal as they are politically and tactically strengthened as a result.  You haven't disputed this at all but instead quickly jumped on me as being bloodthirsty and brainwashed.


Worked up?  I posted my thoughts on a message board.  I disagreed with Obama's position and stated my case.  And now I can't pass judgement on someone who gets "worked up" for being under occupation, tortured, and killed?  Cedar, there is a difference between posting on a message board and blowing up a bus full of defenseless people.  You may want to rethink your position here. 


I gave Israel no such rights - you overestimate my influence.  Instead, I was debating your assertion that Israel's higher infliction of casualties somehow made them worse than Hezbollah.  I don't see it this way.  I see Israel faced with an enemy that will not recognize her right to exist.  You don't give the Israeli government many options when faced with that kind of opposition.


So what you're saying is I don't hate enough to understand Hezbollah?  In order to "get it", I have to fill my soul with hatred, detestation, and anger?  I've heard better arguments from you Cedar. 

And do you know anything about me?  Do you know what I've done in my life, the things I've witnessed, the people I've loved and what has happened to them?  Anything?


For instance, say, like you knowing anything about me?


I don't know where this venom came from - I've always held you in high regard as a poster on IAP and despite our recent encounter here, I still do.  If you disagree with my points, please argue against them.  There is no reason to spit in my face.

Easy.

I find this comment utterly disgusting and I don’t believe I need to hide it.


Why?

Because what you don’t know about the detainee file is that there isn’t one, but two and we are working on both.

The first one was with Israel and, naturally most detainees were Shia because Israel occupied South Lebanon.

And the second one is with Syria that occupied the rest of Lebanon.

The Khiam detention camp was run by Israel and it is known for being a place of torture and death, and other detention places such as the Beau Rivage were run by Syria also known for being a place of torture and death.

The Shiites fought the Israeli occupation in the South and we fought the Syrian occupation in the Christian areas.

I do not believe the missing and the detainees in Syria and Syrian prisons to be roughly a handful over a period of three decades, and to be true to myself, I cannot believe the bodies of people thrown in a mass grave in Israel to be negligible. I also do not believe that fighting the Syrian occupation was an act of terrorism. Actually, I do not believe fighting any occupation an act of terror.

And if you were to be true to yourself, you would admit that when you give the Israelis the right to fight and justify their killings, you do it because you believe the land to have been theirs to begin with, hence, in your opinion, they too are fighting an occupation.

So now I have two questions for you:

1-   Do you believe we were terrorists for killing the Syrians during their occupation years of Lebanon?
2-   Do you believe Syria was justified in torturing and imprisoning Lebanese people, because they disapproved of its presence in Lebanon and were fighting it?

This should be interesting.

   

Yes. Or to be sympathetic to their plight. The Israeli law allows the execution of Nazis and people who betray their country.

I don’t think you have a problem understanding that, do you?

Do you know how many members of the traitor SLA and their families Hizbullah killed after the Israeli withdrawal from South Lebanon? None. There are many who fled with the Israelis. Some came back. At best they spent a few months in prison. Now, we are working on bringing the rest of them back from Israel. That’s another file that is going to be closed soon hopefully. We don’t plan on executing any one of them. The only people who will stand trial are those who actually killed someone so they may decide not to come back afterall. Would an Israeli forgive someone who has done to them what the SLA did to the Shiites in the South?

Since the SLA are
a- traitors
b- torturers and killers

Would you think Hizbullah would be justified in executing them?

Care to put your objectivity to the test?

This is not in dispute.

Israel was created by the UN after the victors of WWI handed over their mandates.

The modern Middle East was created out of the spoil of war....including Lebanon and Syria from the French mandate.

Israels "right to exist" is exactly the same as Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.


Absolutely not.


Absolutely not....but that is the nature of some occupations and occupiers......even nations considered moral have been guilty of atrocities...these are more the work of individuals than a sanctioned blessing on behalf of the government, and thus they are considered "war crimes" and "war criminals"

I don't care about Israel's right to exist. I care about the explanation given as to why it was specifically that piece of land and why another population was thrown out to make room for the Jews. The reason given is that it's because they were there first and the people who were in their place are occupiers and it is justifiable to kill occupiers.

I was making a parallel as it seems to me that the only people in history who are branded terrorists for fighting their occupiers are Hizbullah and the only instance in history whereby the occupier is considered a victim and justified in killing and torturing the occupied and holding detention camps is Israel. I am curious as to how this branding thing works.


What would your replies be if my questions were:

1- Do you believe Hizbullah are terrorists for killing the Israelis during their occupation years of Lebanon?
2- Do you believe Israel was justified in torturing and imprisoning Lebanese people, because they disapproved of its presence in Lebanon and were fighting it?

HI, Cedar!
Nice to see you back. Always ready for a fight?

Why don't you make peace with your Israeli neighbors?
The creation of Israel didn't expel nor killed anyone. It's the war that followed that did it.
It's time to turn the page.

Hezbullah is obsolete, as are all militias. In Iraq they prompted their "local Hezbullah" to lay down their weapons or be massacred. In Lebanon, it will be the same and it's good.
Today they may be still stronger than the Lebanese army but that will change too.
There is no room for non-governemental armed forces in a modern world.

Hezbullah is not defending "their land". They usurpate a power that should belong to the Lebanese governement. It's illegal.
What is legal is running businesses and go on politics. Not hiding machine guns and explosives in a mosqe.

Again, Welcome back to IAP! :D

Hi Fred, ça va?

Of course I am ready for a fight. I do not believe that victims and criminals come with nationality  and it is time some understood it.  ;)

It takes two


No argument there. I think Hizbullah's weapons will be a great bargaining tool in any peace negociations, don't you?
Say, in return for a country like belgium to open its doors for half a million palestinians from Lebanon  ;)


They were branded terrorists when they were. And they still are. The Palestinians are armed, remember?

Tell that to the palestinians in the Lebanon and to everyone else BTW  ;D

Thanks. Will be here as long as this thread is alive and the heat wave is out there   >:( :(

If Palestinians believe they are the first to be "thrown out to make room"....they might want to read a little history....like that of the Romans....or they may want to speak with a Native American.

I understand it must suck being on the losing side of history....but the war was fought....the side occupying the land in question lost....and the victors divided it as they saw fit....it's a done deal and they seem to be the only ones who don't know it, so drag other sovereigns into the fight....of which you are one.

Welcome to the history of mankind and the creation of nations in the ashes of war....


If Hizbullah represents the sovreignty of Lebanon..........No.

If Hizbullah does not represent the sovreignty of the Lebanon..........Yes.

If Hizbullah acts of it's own accord without the advice and consent of the government of Lebanon, it is a terrorist entity.

If it acts under the advice and consent of the government of Lebanon, then it is a proxy representative of the government of Lebanon....and at this point, I would believe a state of war would exist between Israel and Lebanon.


I would need more information....based on how you answer my questions above.

Israel is sovereign.

Lebanon is sovereign.

Hizbullah IS NOT sovereign.....it either acts as a terrorist entity against the sovereign....or as a proxy for the sovereign.

Belgium has already opened its doors to half a million arabs, thank you. But guess what, Lebanon too.
Give these "refugees" who live there for 50 years, Lebanese nationality. Like that they will have a nation. They will be lebanese, not Palestinian anymore.

If you don't it means that you accept some tribal area under no governental control, then don't whine if you have troubles with al-Qaida inspired militants.

It's time to show that Lebanon is a country, not a patchwork of sects and gang controlled zones.


Yes, that applies to anyone. But I wanted to stress that it applies to Hezbullah too. Hezbullah is not a governement, it's not an institution.
If Israel attacks Hezbullah in this part of Judea called "South Lebanon", they are not atacking Lebanon. They are attacking an area under control of no country.

And it's just as reasonable to assume that Israel would lock Palestinians up for even the slightest transgression - if there is even a transgression at all. The US does it to black people, so I see little reason or evidence as to why Israel wouldn't do the same thing to Arabs.

That was my point.

Those 199 bodies Israel has accumulated over 30 years represents just a fraction of the total casulties they've inflicted in the same amount of time.


I said neither party got an upper hand because Hezbollah got 200 dead bodies along with 5 living ones. Israel got two dead bodies. The immediate reaction of the media and everyone watching is to feel sorry for Israel where as I just feel sorry for both parties involved. Now tell me where I said I don't care that Kantar got released, cause I won't tolerate you attacking my morals, which are firmly rooted in the respect for ALL life, regardless of the country they come from.

The few people I've spoken to on this subject disagree with me, taking the media's prespective that Israel DID get the short end of the stick. I don't why you're pretending the issue is being reported differently.

And like I said before, the 5 terrorists were arrested for being "guerillas" rather then any specific crime. Does this make them inocent? No, and I'm not saying it does. I'm saying the facts surrounding these terrorists are virtually unknown and subject to bias.

As for Kantar, I'm surprised Israel gave him up, but he rode back on a tidal wave of other dead Palestinians... so I think that needs to be considered as well.


And Hezbollah gave away 2 dead Isreali soldiers for 200 dead Palestinians. 100 to 1? Does Israel only value Palestinians that much?

You respect someone's value, right?

Then what the hell are we arguing about?


The 199 bodies Israel gave up weren't alive, mdma.

And I'm not entirely sure what you're saying there at the end.

Hezbollah accepted 199 dead Palestinians for 2 dead Isrealies. Obviously Israel doesn't respect Palestinians that much...

Equally, Hezbollah doesn't respect Isrealis that much.

In my opinion, neither side in this war is free from guilt.


I think the Palestinians have as much a right to exist as Israel. The Palestinians work through Hezbollah while Israel works through the IAF and the US.

Neither group makes the right decisions and neither group is any more responsible in it's use of force then the other.

Sorry for being so objective on the issue ::) .

What type existence?

The same as you and I have as people....or as a nation?

If as people....then as people they are responsible for the consequences of their actions.

If as a nation, based on which international law?

Keep in mind coordinated attacks on Israel by 3 sovereign nations and spoils of war.

Certaintly more of a right then the US gave to the Native Americans...

As for the specifics, if I anyone had an answer to that, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It would have been solved by now.

What's accomplished in asking me the question no one has ever been able to answer yet?

What "right" should the US have given Native Americans that they didn't get....they have more priveleges than you.


What question is that?

Well, I don't think this is the place to debate this, but can't we agree that the US mis-handled the whole issue? And continues to do so today?


Each side's legitimacy and how to make sure both can exist without conflict...

... or did I misunderstand your question?

No one opposite that.
Nationalist Israelis ( settlers ) grab lands to make separation more painful but hey know this is not theirs. On other hand Palestinians who in fact are those to blame for 60 years of war in Middle East and the loosing side question Israel's right to exists. This is what proper salesman like any Arab do. Jews probably went too intellectual scientists in Europe and forgot their roots otherwise they would question Arab existence and rights to any of their territories.

This pretty much sums your understanding of inter-Arab relationship.

Possibly....but the fact remains the US was sovereign....and the natives lost the war....and were subject to the whims of the victors.


You understand the question and are smart enough to know the answer.

Israel is soverign...Palestinians are not....they are on the losing side of history like Native Americans.

They can be absorbed into sovereigns such as Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia or Israel...or they can continue to drag sovereigns like Lebanon into conflict with Israel....but they represent no government, are not sovereign and act as terrorists against the sovereign.

Legitimate debate is impossible between either side. There has just been too much fighting.

This is probably why Palestinians instantly question Israel's right to exist. It's just a more simple and less complicated argument to make. It also absolves the Palestinians of blame and excuses their actions because it's all been in responce to initial Isreali aggression. This, coupled with Israel's history (their secret nuclear program, their monopoly on weapons contracts, their hypocritical and unrestricted use of force, their documented inhumane treatment of Isreali Arabs, etc.) only serves to enforce Hezbollah's agenda. 

On the other side is Isreal, a country that faces the threat of terrorism on a daily basis from an enemy that fails to respect the rules of war and recieves massive support from neighboring hostile countries.

The situation is caught up in both history and emotion and while it may be easy to sympathize with one over another, *I* fail to see why either deserves it.


Actually, it doesn't.


Yes, those are the "facts" of the matter. That is what happened. That is how we handled the situation.

That doesn't make it right.

Morality, sadly, is always the most insugnificant factor when establishing domestic and foreign policy.


Alright, a lot of your definitions for legitmacy depend on a criteria WE (and Europeans) have established.

How is it disgusting?  I was simply trying to put into perspective that the 199 bodies returned were casualties of a conflict that has gone on for 30 years.  I didn't suggest anything else other than that.  The implication was that Israel kills 199 times for every 2 people it loses.  The OP was pointing out that he didn't think either side made out ahead because Israel causes far more casualties.  I think the number is skewed in this case as those 199 bodies came from a period of 30 years.


I see Israel working to protect its citizens, not its land.  There is a big difference between the two.  I believe Israel is perfectly justified in targeting terrorists but never made any attempt to justify targeting civilians, imprisoning the innocent, or torturing any prisoners.  And no, in my opinion, Israel is not fighting an occupation.  Israel is not fighting a nation's armed forces for one, they are not fighting against a group that has to follow international laws, and they are not fighting a group that has to answer to anyone in Lebanon.  Simply put, Israel is fighting against a group who's own country is unable to control.

So now I have two questions for you:


1)  I have NEVER ever in my entire life made the claim that people cannot fight an occupying force.  You are not terrorists for doing that, nor are Iraqi insurgents "terrorists" when they fight the American military in Iraq.  You cross the line into terrorism when you intentionally attack civilian targets to a) cause fear in an attempt to bring about political change, or b) kill for the sole sake of killing those you believe to be unworthy of life.

That is what makes one a terrorist.  Hezbollah is a terrorist group by this definition.

2)  I do not believe torture to ever be justified, though I can think of instances where one has to understand its application (like the hidden nuclear bomb case).  However, Syria as an occupying force was justified in imprisoning those who were actively fighting against Syria.  It is an unfortunate consequence of war and a risk those fighting had to take.  It is the same for US soldiers in Iraq - justified in imprisoning those taking up arms against coalition forces.  The same can be said for US soldiers in Germany or Japan, British soldiers in America in the late 18th century, and every other instance in world history.

You've made assumptions that I give Israel a free pass.  I do not.  I have many times disagreed with Israel and found myself condemning their actions on plenty of occasions.  This is a case where I believe Israel made a big mistake as

1)  They acheived no tactical advantage but instead, strengthened Hezbollah
2)  They acheived no political advantage as Hezbollah used it for propaganda victory and nobody is willing to give Israel any credit for releasing live prisoners in exchange for bodies.

That is the point I try to make.  This was not in my opinion, as the OP believes, as case where both sides walk away without any gain over the other. 

That is why I don't understand why you've been so nasty in your posts.  There is no need to call me bloodthirsty or brainwashed.  I've never harmed a soul nor do I take pleasure in seeing people suffer.  I don't think Israeli lives are worth any more than Lebanese lives, but I'm not sure Hezbollah shares that opinion.  Just a thought.

What we are dealing with IS fact....in order to be objective and not allow yourself to be mired with emotional aspects of the case, look to international law and issues of sovreignty.


Not just us....but the rest of the SOVREIGN world.

Note:

International law is useful only when it benefits someone. Otherwise, they are a sham and broken frequently.

My point in bringing up the Native Americans was only to say that Israel shouldn't echo us in how we addressed that era of our history.

Cutting them off and disrespecting their soverigny isn't a good way to go. We should be so lucky that the Apache tribe wasn't anything like Hezbollah...


If the rest of the SOVREIGN world mattered, A LOT of things would be different. For starters, no one would care that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons... but the powerful ones do, so it's a global crisis.

I guess this debate is equally hard to have because of the political terminology that gets thrown around.


QFT!

I think you are seeing malice where there may not be any, at least not in any significant quantity.  The US does not "do it" to black people - certainly not as a matter of policy.  I think the same is true with Israel.  It costs money to hold prisoners, if they are innoncent of any wrong doing and Israel knows it, it invites the possibility of massive public backlash from the international community and it tarnishes Israel's image even further.  There are of course going to be cases where innocent people are jailed just as will always be the case until humans cease to exist.  Nothing will ever change that as mistakes are not going to disappear any time soon.  Indeed there will always be the odd-ball case of criminal wrongdoing where some jerk on a power trip wants to throw an Arab in jail for no reason.  Again, I don't see this as something widespread or at epidemic levels.  What I do see is MILLIONS of people gathering in public forums burning flags, chanting "death to Israel", inciting hatred of Israel, and marching around with their children dressed up like Rambo.  This speaks volumes and does very little to support the case that many jailed are innocent of any wrongdoing.  From what I can see, and more importantly from what I hear out of the mouths of angry Arabs in that part of the world makes me believe that Israel probably holds thousands in prison, and most are probably there for a good reason.


And indeed just a fraction of the total casualties Israel has endured as well - it is a two-way street.



Easy now - I never attacked your morals.  It was a question that was perhaps poorly worded, but completely relevent to the discussion.  I see the release of a man who killed one Israeli man and smashed the skull of a four-year old Israeli girl completely ridiculous, irresponsible, and immoral.  I see it as a bad move, especially when that murderer is greeted as a hero and vows to fight again.  At the crux of the issue is your assertion that Israel and Hezbollah made out equally well (or not at all).  I think the propaganda victory alone for Hezbollah completely invalidates this position.  My point was that a known terrorist is now back in the mix with a desire to inflict more harm.  Israel has two dead bodies, hardly strengthening them tactically or politically.


Well, those people happen to be right.  I'm not pretending the issue is being reported differently, but rather debating someone who thinks it should be.............. ;)


Perhaps, but one of those 5 has already vowed to fight again.  I'm putting my money on the fact that they all find their way back into the fight before long.


Not really.  He committed double murder (only one murder if the word of a murderer is good enough for you - you being 3^rd person, don't get upset).  Regardless of anything that has happened, that man has no business ever seeing the outside of a prison cell.


Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.  Israel didn't set the "price", Hezbollah did.  It isn't Israel that created the value, it is Hezbollah.  Israel would have given 200 dead Palistinians for every Israeli held captive and more.  Would Hezbollah have agreed to a 2 for 2 deal?  No way in the world.  Israel would have, and it would have been an equal 1 to 1, right?

Abrax....you wear your heart on your sleeve and in the world politic, someone will take advantage of you to benefit themselves.

"If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart.  If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain."

Your probably somewhere closer to 25 than 35......but with every year, your making progress  ;)

All the things you use to support your position are not based on existing facts of international law, laws of war and spoils or issues of national sovreignty....but are on "moral" grounds and on how people "should" be treated.....which is simply an opinion on your part.

Actually, the US does make it matter of policy as evidenced by our whacked out legal system, which continuously puts away more black people for illigitimate crimes then it does for white people. For God's sake, we have minimum sentancing laws that punish crack cocaine users more harshley then people with powder cocaine because we know perfectly well that black people use crack because it's cheaper.

We have instatutuionalized and accepted racism in our society. This is fact.

I refuse to believe that Israel has anything fairer and would wager my left arm that it's even worse.

Also, Israel has never recieved international criticism for their development of a secret nuclear program (which they lied about on several occassions) or there nuclear arsenal (a.k.a. "the worst kept secret in the Middle East"), so what makes you think the world is gonna jump on their back about a few dead Palestinians?

C'mon Crypto... be objective here.


That's what *I'm* saying.


It earned your sympathy, didn't it?

Am I heartless to propose the potential benefits of international sympathy?

Israel is like any other political establishment - they make every choice weghing the pros and cons. This wasn't a concession. This was a deal.

Neither side benefits and neither side loses.


I think the media fails to stress the fact that Israel handed over 199 dead Palestinians.

To ignore this, in my opinion, is irresponsible journalism.


"Find their way back"? Assuming they were there to begin with?

If they weren't terrorists back then they sure as hell are now. They were in prison all this time! Could you blame them for hating the country that falsely imprisoned them (if this is what happened)?


Agreed.


If the rates of death were 1:1, then maybe you'd have a point... but they're not.

So the point is moot.


And some call me too jaded.

Sometimes I just don't understand what I am...


As Terry said, international laws are followed by the international community if and when it benefits them. Otherwise, "ink on a page" will not stop global super powers from doing what is in their best intrests - morality be damned. My choice to recognize this, call them out on it and do what *I* can to change it doesn't mean I'm a "liberal". It means I won't tolerate international bullying and that I hold my princibles higher then my country does.

I just choose to not be a hypocrite.

You're a good man Abrax........Perhaps I should have discussesd my theory on the "King of the Mountain" which I have used here on the ME forum before with regards to international intrigue........I'll do a search and see what comes up.......