IAP Political Forum

Currently, I'm teaching a remedial math class (pre-algebra) to college freshmen. The thing is, some of them just don't want to act like adults.

Last Tuesday, I had 34 of my 39 students walk out of the class 25 minutes early (its a 75 minute class). So last Thursday, I gave them a "pop exam". Today, when we were reviewing the graded exams, some in the back were being rather loud and disruptive. Each time I would ask them to quiet down a little, it would stop, but start back up louder. Until eventually I went off on them.

My diatribe was something like this: "Is this high school? What is wrong with you? This is a university, and you're all supposedly adults. Would you act like this if you were in a meeting when you get a job? You would get fired."

I didn't get too angry, at least I tried not to, losing your cool is the last thing to do. I raised my voice enough to make sure they were listening, but I restrained myself a bit. That finally did it, and I didn't have any more interuptions the rest of the class session.

Are there any teachers, or former teachers on here. I could use some advice. For now I'm a step ahead of them, but I would appreciate input if anyone has suggestions.

Sorry I am an early childhood educator and thus far my classroom consists of my one 4yr old son.

I think they need that reality check though, especially since they are preparing for real life.

I'll give you my piece, being a college student.

Kids like that REALLY annoy me. Before you hand out the quiz say "If I see you talking, I will assume you are cheating. So if you talk I'll be ripping up your paper and giving you a zero". If they talk, do just that. Walk up to their desk, grab the paper, and tear it to pieces.

Or say, if you plan on leaving early, contact me before class with a legit reason of why. If you just get up and leave, you'll be getting a 0 for participation. Or mark them as abscent.

If they don't want to listen, make their grade suffer. That's you best way to get their attention.

This is just my opinion of course. But it is effective (some of my teacher's do this).

Not familiar with US education system. How old are they?

I teach 19-20 year old. They can't leave because practicum is mandatory (if they want to approach the exam). My problem is that about a third of them went to the university just to get a student status and are generally uninterested in what I have to say. Luckily they only show up once or never, the beginning of the year is hard work, the rest is... Well, I enjoy in it.

This year will be unpredictable because we start with

I'm in the same boat.  A lot of the freshmen are trying to impress each other by acting like total assholes.  My advice is to threaten them with grades, and if they're apathetic; they don't deserve to be there.

As a student, I can say I really hate those f***ers too. They're the same ones who bug the people in the computer lab for info that they missed in class. The best teachers have quick witty retorts, to show who the real clown that needs laughing at is. I'm still working on that one.

I've told them no-one can leave early without prior arrangement. I made sure to handle that last week.

Part of the problem is that it's a pass/fail class (they know this part) entirely judged on whether they get an 80% on the final (I hope they don't figure this part out), so I don't have the option of deducting points and they know it. I thought about assigning more work, but the ones causing the problems are the ones who are likely to just blow it off.


Tej-tej, they're all 17 or 18, maybe a few 19 year olds. Fresh out of high school. Our program is mandatory as well, students in my class are already enrolled on a sort of probationary basis. Denying approach to the exam for disruption might be a good idea. I don't know how my supervisors would fell about it though. That means they would be back in the program next semester, and we're already swamped.

My dad is a veteran teacher. He told me I care too much for my pay level, and that I should just hope they decide to skip class. I'm thinking he might be right, even if it lowers my pass rate.


I appreciate the input everyone. I have some ideas about how to handle the situation, but it always helps to get new ideas.

i have some experience with kids and adults there is no overall rules. each person needs personal attention, some are clowns and need to be "clowned back", some are lazy bastards or annoyed and want to go home so you must frighten them like you did while screaming in the classroom "you won't get job", some need more than person who read them math.

teaching is like being a leader, you must know your team, use it for your needs and be few steps ahead this way they will always feel your superiority,,, which is the most important for teacher to shine with...

as for your dad's advice,  i don't know whether you intend to teach in future but this is never a good thinking to do a job as you paid for it,,, this way you would never success to get promotion even if you have such thing in your area or workplace,,, students definitely won't like that and will make sure to replace you, any trouble or mistake they will do they would connect it to your "i don't give a fuck"...

If you intend to say "i don't give a fuck about you but you should because it's your life" in class or something like that, it could be seen as sign of low self confidence especially for grown up students,,, so think twice before saying anything like or being totally cold.

Again know your team, hopefully you teach the same group otherwise it's shite to teach random ppl...

I don't intend to teach for a living. Maybe after years of work if I get a doctorate. You're right, but you might misread the attitude a little. It's cynical, but if they don't show up, there isn't a whole lot I can do about it. I wouldn't do anything to discourage them from showing up, but the if guy in the back who doesn't want to stop talking is absent I'll be glad there's one less yammering mouth back there.

Generally, apathy isn't good strategy for job promotion though. Plus, I do hold a high pass rate as a goal.

Dang, it's a shame you can't punish them through their grade. That really limits your options.

I'm not good with witty remarks (until after the fact), so I can't really give you anything good to say back to class clowns. Sorry.

why won't you kick the guy that speaking out of room ?

I was about to if the "you'll get fired" speech didn't work.

It's a drastic measure so I'd rather not unless I have to. I've never seen it happen any classes I've had. I will consider myself to have done a better job if I can control the situation without resorting to that.

I'd like to exhaust the diplomatic options before dropping GTFO bombs, but if he persists in pursuing his weapons of mass distraction program, I might be forced to. I don't need them to like me, but I do need them to respect me. If I resort to drastic measures unnecessarily I'll look backed into a corner.

You're right about the leadership skills. Teaching last year really did help to build what little bit of leadership skill I have. This class is bigger bolder and worse behaved. I guess I lucked out last year, and the class would be eating me alive if I hadn't learned last time that I need to nip the problem in the bud.



Totino, neither am I. I think of real zingers about five minutes afterward usually. That's part of the reason forum's can be fun.

That's a good approach to remind them about long term goals, like how they would be expected to behave in a workplace environment.

I've taken Algebra, Geometry, Calculus and Trigonomotry classes and passed fine, but to this day I can't remember everything I learned. Thinking back, it would have stuck with me more, and I would have been more interested in it if my teachers would have given me real world examples of how that math could make me money. I know that seems greedy, but I know that math can help you manage your money, invest, and simplify your life if you actually know how to use it. I believe that if you give real world examples of how math will actually benefit the students as far as making them money so that they can buy iPods or whatever it is they crave, then they will be apt to pay more attention.

Its remedial PRE-algebra.  Aclass that any even moderatly serious student should have taken in his first years of junior high school.

I would say ask the few students who bother to act like adults, like the 4 who DID NOT get up and leave to sit upfront then tell the rest that if they don't want to bother, they can leave now and take thier fail grade rather than wait until then end.

More than liekly the class is filled with kids who should NOT be in college anyway. They are there becuase thier parents pushed them into being there and they should better be placed in a tradeskill then an acedemic pursuit.

One of the better witty retorts I remember a professor using was in response to a student saying, "oh, now you've confused me."

The professor, without missing a beat, said, "I didn't confuse you Mr. Carbody. God confused you when He made you."

I think it's actually a good thing when professors make students look stupid. It reinforces the idea that the students are there to learn from the professor. One of the biggest differences I've noticed between instructors with doctorates and masters is that the PhD's tend to have shaper wits, and it's a worse idea to cross them in a shit-talking match.

In the 1800's it was common in German universities for professors to write things in a an intentionally wordy and confusing manner when vying for the position of dept. chair. The goal was to write something so hard to understand that people would marvel at how smart you were.

Witty remarks and retorts have a long and honored tradition in higher education.

I remember in college one of my favorite classes was with a liberal professor,,(civics class i think it was) ,when I say liberal I mean he made JPN look like a right wing bible thumper.

He actually believed that we needed to give massive amounts of money to inner city dwellers so that they would not come to the suburbs to rob us all at gun point.

We got into some flat out ARGUEMENTS in class several times. There where many comments made by both of us that made the other students wince.

We where talking about the kinder gentler attitude and I told him "If you want to raise your kids to be kinder and gentler and non competitive that was fine, but dont'tet upset when your kids are asking mine asking mine if they want frries with thier order" I told him I had knw what to call kinder gentler people, they are called victims.

After the course was over (which I got a high B in) he pulled me to the side and said it had been on of his more enoyable classes in a long time.

There's a professor at my school who will seek out students who he already knows, and are going to be in his lower level courses. He gives them old cell phones before the first class meeting and has them pull them out and begin talking during the first lecture. He'll then go and ask to see the phone, and then smash it on the back wall.

He really knows how to engage the students.

That's awesome.

my wife would be the one to talk too -- but she gives them an immediate consequence, and if it continues, another immediate consequence...eventually they give up (these are jr. high kids though). At the college level I don't know if "go to the office" has the same ring to it.

Perhaps a face-to-face after class with one of the trouble-makers would do the job. She would also say that respect is a two-way avenue...if you give, and don't get, then kick 'em out of class.

That's pretty sweet.... But what if I told you I hate a communist economics teacher wig out, grab a student's things, and throw them all at the wall (not a set up)?

It was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. He was sooooo serious and pissed off. But I had to laugh.

that is a good one....

I don't know if I could help laughing at that one either. That's wild though, the cell smasher is also an econ teacher. Definitely not communist, but pretty liberal.

So basically you just want to scare the **** out of kids. Maybe you should have been a drill sargeant. :)

fear is one thing, respect is another.

I concur.

Illy, your problem seems to be that you are teaching highschool layovers in a university setting.  Highschool discipline was easy - detention, violence or jug.  At university I favor the presumption that the student is the consumer and harms no one by not paying attention or skipping class.

That liberty should not extend to disruption.  I'd liberally oust anyone making the lesson harder or speaking during a test.

You summed up the problem pretty well. I favor the assumption that the student is the consumer as well. I've come to a point where I've stopped caring about who comes to class and who doesn't. A good picture of who is and isn't going to be able to pass the final is coming into my view. Ironically, the ones in the back who were being loud are some of the farthest ahead and have the highest test scores.

As far as people leaving early, it's much worse than not showing up, because it is a disruption. The attendance policy was set by the program supervisors, if I take too lax a stance on it, I'm not performing my job like I agreed to. One of the program goals is a high attendance rate, and I did take the job. If they don't show up, I'm not going to be too upset about it though.


I actually haven't had a problem with anyone disrupting the class since my response the first day it started. Many of them seem to have realized that they're going to have to repeat the class if they don't put more effort in.




At the end of the day it makes no difference to me why it is they shut up in the back when I'm teaching, as long as they do. While I agree with you in principle, teaching some of them respect is a much bigger job than I ever signed up for. In a few cases, I do think it would require a certain amount of fear to do the job.

I would say fear is more powerful than respect. Of course, maybe you're going for an integrity prespective?

Not exactly. People are far more willing to do what you tell them to when they respect you rather than if they fear you. Even if you put a gun to their head, their initial reaction internally is fight or flight, not to follow directions.

Look at all powerful dictators. They rule through fear, not respect.

Actually I think it's respect through fear. As in, they are respected for their cruelty and power.

Even in democratic societies, there is a need for some amount of fear for governing effectively. Without the "fear" of going to prison, we would have less tax revenue and more burglary and theft. Coercive force is the nature of government underneath everything else. Rules are useless unless people have some small amount of "fear" for the consequences of not following them.

Fear is also a good motivator for success. One time, I started a new framing job. On the first day, I was laying down roof plywood with the boss. He asked me if I was afraid of heights. I told him "Deathly afraid of them, always will be...but I'm more afraid of being unemployed and homeless.

I hate to say it, but the world would be a really crappy place without fear.