IAP Political Forum

After both sides done anything possible to confront each other, the battle has began. I've seen Russian anti-Georgian propaganda since Saakashvili got elected as Georgian president. Propaganda was every where, from Russian comedy shows to political remarks of high command. Is NATO powerful enough to stop Russian intervention or not ? Clearly ppl of Osetia ( region war is all about ) probably won't win anything from that war whatever side they choose other one rape them back.

Does NATO care?

Trust me my communist friend, NATO cares for anything as long as it related to Russia.

Georgia seeks to become a member and have concluded talks toward that objective...I suppose they "care"....but I doubt to the point of intervention.

This will work it's way through the UN....and be largely ignored by a sitting permanent member of the UN Security Council with veto power.

The greatest numbers of the "coalition of the willing" or bought and paid for, (take your pick) have already departed or scheduled to in the near future. Apparently, as a result of the warfare at home more will departing for Georgia. Not expressing any opinion on this thread, but just updating some information.  Anyone know how bad any
ground fighting is? I can't see calling home these troops unless it is.


Georgia calls back troops from Iraq amid fighting

Georgian president calls troops home from Iraq amid South Ossetia fighting

Staff
AP News

Aug 08, 2008 12:22 EST

Georgia's president says the country is calling home its troops from Iraq amid heavy fighting in the breakaway province of South Ossetia.

Georgia has 2,000 troops serving with the coalition forces in Iraq, making it the third-largest contributor after the United States and Britain.

But Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili told CNN television Friday the troops would return urgently to Georgia after fighting erupted in South Ossetia.

"One brigade of Georgian forces is in Iraq and we are calling it home tomorrow," Saakashvili said in the interview.

Georgian defense officials could not be reached for further details.

Source: AP News

Rather interesting analysis on Reuters.  Provides some information that tends to make more sense than trying to filter through MSM articles or opinion here.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSL8117957

The West won't do much; it's the good old world where difference rules apply to different players. They could give Tbilisi some cash to buy the air defense systems. It looks like the Ukrainian S-300 downed several Russian planes. Russians already made the noise about Ukrainians pushing Georgia to war by supplying the air defense. Of course my position is that the entire Osetia, that is BOTH North OSetia and South Osetia, should be a unified sovereign state of the Osetian people. Guess who makes this impossible? Russia. Cremlin will gladly tear South Osetia from Georgia but would bomb into dust NORTH OSetia, should that part of Russ Federation exhibit any taste for independence.

Just to share an earlier article. (Note not from one of those websites Patton refers to as lefty) The wired blog/dangeroom is primarily a site for discussion and information related to military actions and weaponry.  Some might find this post made prior to the order to return Georgian troops from Iraq as well as the U.S. involvement not being
discussed elsewhere to the best of my knowledge.

Did the U.S. Prep Georgia for War with Russia?
By Nathan Hodge August 08, 2008 | 12:52:00

Georgia and Russia are careening towards war. And the U.S. isn't exactly a detached observer in the fight. The American military has been training and equipping Georgian troops for years.

The news thus far: Georgia, which has been locked in a drone war over the separatist enclave of Abkhazia, has launched an offensive to reclaim another breakaway territory, South Ossetia. Latest reports indicate that Georgian forces are laying siege to Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital. And Russia, which has backed the separatists, is sending in the tanks.

So why should we care? Oh, just the prospect of a larger regional war that could drag in Russia – and involve the United States as well. Since early 2002, the U.S. government has given a healthy amount of military aid to Georgia. When I last visited South Ossetia, Georgian troops manned a checkpoint outside Tskhinvali -- decked out in surplus U.S. Army uniforms and new body armor.

The first U.S. aid came under the rubric of the Georgia Train and Equip Program (ostensibly to counter alleged Al Qaeda influence in the Pankisi Gorge); then, under the Sustainment and Stability Operations Program. Georgia returned the favor, committing thousands of troops to the multi-national coalition in Iraq. Last fall, the Georgians doubled their contingent, making them the third-largest contributor to the coalition. Not bad for a nation of 4.6 million people.

Leaving aside the question of Russian interference (see below), the larger concern has been that Georgia might be tempted to use its newfound military prowess to resolve domestic conflicts by force.

As Sergei Shamba, the foreign affairs minister of Abkhazia, told me in 2006: “The Georgians are euphoric because they have been equipped, trained, that they have gained military experience in Iraq. It feeds this revanchist mood… How can South Ossetia be demilitarized, when all of Georgia is bristling with weaponry, and it’s only an hour’s ride by tank from Tbilisi to Tskhinvali?”

One of the U.S. military trainers put it to me a bit more bluntly. “We’re giving them the knife,” he said. “Will they use it?”

There are confirming hyperlinks included on the link as well as a list of other relevant articles.

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/did-us-military.html

Should be good timing for Israeli attack on Iran and Americans finally set up their anti missile defense in Eastern Europe while Russians and Chinese have their toys on the floor. I mean long awaited fight against Georgia and Olympic Games.

Funny you mentioned that because I was thinking the same thing. I thought the US would attack Iran later this month but I did not predict this conflict. It has made a huge change in the world now. Iran of all people has called for peace and immediate ceasefire in this conflict. Perhaps they know their buddy (Russia) has just took the spotlight off of them and an Israeli attack is in work. WWIII is starting to form slowly but surely.

Reuters is about as mainstream media as it gets(not that that is so horrible). 

Ironic isn't it, that Russia's government would support that breakaway republic for doing the same thing they brutalized Chechnya for trying?

If there gonna be any WWIII soon then its gonna be over oil and not Ossetia, Iranian nuclear program or last Britney's CD

NATO cares about the interests of it's large corporations.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/09/MNDG127U55.DTL

This is an opposite to what i've meant. I mean war for oil not an article in some retarded newspaper that mentioned word oil simply because both countries have pipelines and oil. This war is over region and US support for Georgia is mainly because of Russia. There always been a conflict over there because Christians and Muslims who live nearby.

Religion isn't the cause of these wars in the region...just like its not the cause of war b/t Israel and its past enemies.  Religion is just scape goat reason to galvanize the poor and the masses.

The pipeline is definitely a reason IMO...the US supports Georgia b/c of its strategic location for future pipelines as well...and we should continue to as long as we have such a large demand for petro.  Abkhazia is the long term target for Georgia anyway.  Southern Ossetia is just a stepping stone to unite Georgia...at least in Saakashvili's mind.

three words "never trust Russia". Putin just made Bush look like an idiot and probably laughing behind his back.

The US has about as much a chance in stopping Russian aggression as Russia does in stopping US aggression.....neither want a repeat of October 1962.

This is the reason why same region had a war about century ago? Is that the reason of Middle Eastern conflicts century ago?

It is over oil !

All those ex-soviet republics have oil or pipelines going through their territories.
Even Afghanistan it's about oil, for plans in the future, for pipelines. Why ? do you think, Taliban officials visited U.S before the war, for consultations with the Axis of Criminals in charge of White House?

I'll give you 4 words: "never trust America again"
How about it ?

mdma, could this bit of interesting information be a factor in your opinions?  It appears the control of that pipeline may very shortly, if not already, be in Russian hands.  Does it pay for Israel to play both sides of the fence?
If Bush is going to have an other little surrogate war with the Russians, can Israel afford to play along?  That oil from OPEC is really a lot more expensive. Did you miss this information or just choose not to share?

War in Georgia: The Israeli connection

For past seven years, Israeli companies have been helping Gerogian army to preparer for war against Russia through arms deals, training of infantry units and security advice
Arie Egozi

The fighting which broke out over the weekend between Russia and Georgia has brought Israel's intensive involvement in the region into the limelight. This involvement includes the sale of advanced weapons to Georgia and the training of the Georgian army's infantry forces.
 
The Defense Ministry held a special meeting Sunday to discuss the various arms deals held by Israelis in Georgia, but no change in policy has been announced as of yet.
 
Advice
Foreign Ministry warns Israelis against traveling to Georgia / Roee Nahmias
Ministry ups travel warning due to ongoing military conflict with Russia, asks Israelis already in Georgia to contact embassy in Tbilsi or ministry's situation room in Israel
Full story
"The subject is closely monitored," said sources in the Defense Ministry. "We are not operating in any way which may counter Israeli interests. We have turned down many requests involving arms sales to Georgia; and the ones which have been approves have been duly scrutinized. So far, we have placed no limitations on the sale of protective measures." 
 
Israel began selling arms to Georgia about seven years ago following an initiative by Georgian citizens who immigrated to Israel and became businesspeople.
 
"They contacted defense industry officials and arms dealers and told them that Georgia had relatively large budgets and could be interested in purchasing Israeli weapons," says a source involved in arms exports.
 
The military cooperation between the countries developed swiftly. The fact that Georgia's defense minister, Davit Kezerashvili, is a former Israeli who is fluent in Hebrew contributed to this cooperation.
 
"His door was always open to the Israelis who came and offered his country arms systems made in Israel," the source said. "Compared to countries in Eastern Europe, the deals in this country were conducted fast, mainly due to the defense minister's personal involvement."
 
Among the Israelis who took advantage of the opportunity and began doing business in Georgia were former Minister Roni Milo and his brother Shlomo, former director-general of the Military Industries, Brigadier-General (Res.) Gal Hirsch and Major-General (Res.) Yisrael Ziv.
 
Roni Milo conducted business in Georgia for Elbit Systems and the Military Industries, and with his help Israel's defense industries managed to sell to Georgia remote-piloted vehicles (RPVs), automatic turrets for armored vehicles, antiaircraft systems, communication systems, shells and rockets.
 
According to Israeli sources, Gal Hirsch gave the Georgian army advice on the establishment of elite units such as Sayeret Matkal and on rearmament, and gave various courses in the fields of combat intelligence and fighting in built-up areas.

http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3580136,00
 

You themselves you believe in that that west reporters speak?

Don't ever trust a man who says a war will be cheap. He is either lying, or he's not the guy you want running a war.

Let's try to get to the bottom of what Condoleeza Rice was thinking when she criticized the Russian government over what it is doing in Georgia, she doesn't care about Georgia in particular, she just wanted to tell the Russian's what she thinks about the Russian way of handling things. Now Russia, a country who was gaining in soft power, is going to have to devote its resources towards fighting this war with Georgia. The Russian's had their "Vietnam" occur in Afghanistan and now they are going to have their version what the US had happen in Afghanistan, have happen here.

Have the Russian's done everything they could to make sure they get the job done with Georgia? Will that be
enough? We'll see. But I think 5 years from now, Russia will still be in Georgia, the cost of energy will be cheaper causing the government to have a smaller economy to fund the war, and the rerise of Russian power will have only been a short lived blip in the history of powerful nations. This will allow the US, India, and China to have more power and flex their influence world wide. Unless the US attacks Iran of course. Though the US did show that it can be wise, after it has exhausted every other possibility (like what happened in Iraq).

    It no, Russia will not delay blockade of Georgia, it is not necessary to hope on that that russian will lie out money in the inventory, I think this will linger on 2-3 months, all will afterwards finished, saacashvilli and environment will be hung, but-but, exactly so, not electric-chair, this is too soft!
 

   And you believe to whom? hypocrites and murderer- sadist?  ???

and yes whats your point you one loving Jews woman? That Jews made this fight to sell weapons to both or what?

  Moreover here jewish woman?
  You from moldova??? you write nonsense!

нет я не молдаванин
кстати о Молдавии, лет так 17 назад я отъебал там твою маму с которой мы были там в отпуске.
так что ты не родился в "великой России" а говняном Совке

It is partly about oil, and partly about Georgia trying to join NATO.

Irish Commie is right but what none of you know besides the Russia Ivan, that Russia has exact the same kind of relationships with Ukraine, Poland and Baltic from which none have an oil. Situation pretty reminds pre WWII when Commies occupied nearby countries to expand borders prior war but we all know that the real reason was overtaking Europe along with Nazis

Agreed, IamMe.  But, I'm always amused by mdma's continuing claims to attempt to connect me, incorrectly, to statements I've made about my Jewish grandchildren or the service of my spouse as a crewmember on U.S. aircraft, who were responsible for the re-supply of Israel during the Yom Kippur war.  Maybe mdma has become a
bit senile or just enjoys making OT personal attacks? But that said, and outside of the U.S. or Western media, a
fascinating and very informative article related to the history of Georgia as it is in the opinion of the author applicable today.  

Central Asia
     Aug 12, 2008

Russia bids to rid Georgia of its folly
By John Helmer

MOSCOW - One word explains why the United States, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and the European Union have obliged themselves to sit on their hands, while Russia's defends its citizens, and national interests, in the Caucasus, and liberates Georgians from the folly of their unpopular president, Mikheil Saakashvili. That word is Kosovo.

Russia sent troops into the breakaway Georgian region of South Ossetia to take on Georgian troops that had advanced into the territory. Four days of heavy fighting have seen thousands of casualties and the Georgian forces withdrawing. Russian troops were reported on Monday to be continuing fighting in parts of Georgia, including around the capital Tbilisi.

Eight hundred years of Caucasian history explain why Saakashvili has brought such destruction and ignominy on his countrymen over the past few days. Queen Tamar, the greatest of the Georgian sovereigns (1184-1213), is responsible for the habit Georgian rulers have displayed for the past millennium of treating neighboring Armenia, Azerbaijan, Ossetia and the Black Sea coast of Turkey as protectorates. But as Tamar also taught her countrymen, Georgian ambition always runs out of gas when the neighbors prove to be just as ambitious, richer or tougher.

No doubt the full article found on the link will be a bit long with the exception of those on IAP who typically prefer
to express personal opinion, often little more than propaganda or in lockstep with the Bush/Cheney cabal.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/JH12Ag02.html

  Why Nato spare "cargo", for accommodation of bases?

I bet you tell all your friends that you have a Jewish grandchildren ,,, you won't buy me with that ... i know you are v4nqu!sh from stormfront.org

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2008/08/mil-080813-rianovosti01.htm (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2008/08/mil-080813-rianovosti01.htm)

So how much solidarity do you think these other nations will continue to show? How much farther will things go with the obvious breech of non-aggression?

lol :laugh:

Poor mdma, that pipeline you Zionists figured on to get the oil out of the Caucasus, now belongs to Russia. Don't you even read your own papers?

Last update - 13:15 14/08/2008         
Georgia president denies Israel halted military aid due to war
By Anshel Pfeffer, Haaretz Correspondent

Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili denied on Wednesday night that Israel has suspended its military aid to the country. "I haven't heard anything about that, and I haven't had time to think about that issue for some days," he told Haaretz.

Saakashvili said he is aware of problems with supplying the pilotless drones that his army ordered from Israeli companies, but not of the stopping of any other shipments of military aid.

"The Israeli weapons have proved very effective," he said at a press conference at his office. When asked whether the Israeli arms played a role in the military successes he claimed the Georgian army had achieved, he joked: "Are you asking me as a representative of Elbit or of Israel Aerospace Industries?"
   Advertisement
To a reporter's question about Jews who have fled the fighting and come to Israel, he said: "We have two Israeli cabinet ministers, one deals with war [Defense Minister David Kezerashvili], and the other with negotiations [State Minister for Territorial Integration Temur Yakobashvili], and that is the Israeli involvement here: Both war and peace are in the hands of Israeli Jews."

Yakobashvili is actually not an Israeli citizen. Saakashvili's statements are part of his government's attempt to bring other countries into its war against Russia. During the briefing, Saakashvili noted that he is in constant contact with U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. He promised that U.S. warships would be docking in Georgian ports within a few days to make sure they remain open.

Saakashvili tried to project confidence during the interview, but could not completely hide the stress he is under. A few hours earlier, refugees from Gori held a spontaneous demonstration in front of parliament, calling for Saakashvili to resign.

"We will fight to the death until the last Russian soldier leaves Georgian territory," Saakashvili told reporters. "We will never surrender."

He characterized the announcements against him by Russia's government, blaming him for the suffering of the Georgian people, as "typical Nazi propaganda." He accused Russia of ethnic cleansing in the Georgian villages in the north of the country. "If Georgia falls, all of the energy supply routes will be blocked," he said.

Saakashvili told the press conference that he expected Russia's next victims to be the Baltic countries. He accused Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin of "trying to take revenge on the United States, but instead of attacking the Sixth Fleet he found himself an easier target."

Georgian minister slams Israeli suspension of aid
Earlier Wednesday, Yakobashvili told Haaretz that Israel has joined in the West's betrayal of Georgia. As the official in charge of bringing Abkhazia and South Ossetia back into the fold, Yakobashvili oversaw negotiations with the Russians to end the fighting there. He warned the world that the situation would escalate into war, but the West ignored him.

"They said the Georgians are exaggerating again," he charged.

A former Zionist leader who speaks fluent Hebrew, Yakobashvili credited Israeli defense companies with "enabling us to train our army and giving us the possibility to withstand the Russians," but termed the Israeli government's decision to stop arms exports to his country "a disgrace."

He said the West should have responded by "deploying NATO troops to defend Georgia's vital infrastructure," and that "Israel is betraying us, along with the European countries and the United States."

Referring to rioting by Russian militia groups in villages surrounding Gori, Yakobashvili said: "Today there was a Cossack pogrom against the local population. As a Jew that gives me a different feeling."

Yakobashvili blasted Israel's decision to suspend defense aid to Georgia: "Israel did it at the Russians' behest. It aided the terrorists, the Russians. It's a disgrace. I don't know what it received in return, I only see that Hezbollah continues to get Russian arms, and plenty of it."

"Israel should protect the interests it has here," he continued. "There are many Israeli businesspeople who invested money, and a country should protect its citizens' investments."

He ascribed Georgia's feisty military ability to Israeli training, and said that Russian experts had told him "they never believed Georgia has such an army and that they would encounter such resistance."

Yakobashvili claimed the Georgian forces had destroyed Russia's 58th army and downed 17 planes and three helicopters (data unsubstantiated by other sources). Eventually they had to retreat, he said, because "Russia deployed 30,000 soldiers and a thousand tanks. Our people are not suicidal ¨ we don't want our soldiers to remain in the field and be killed by Russian planes."

The minister claimed that the Abkhazian minority had carried out "ethnic cleansing" in that breakaway region in recent years by expelling members of other ethnic groups, and had supplied weapons to separatists in Ossetia for attacks on Georgian villages.

He was in Tskhinvali, Ossetia, last week, hours before fighting broke out there. "The separatists fired at Georgian villages. We returned fire and asked the Russians to order the Ossetians to stop. The Russian representative told me we have to agree to a total cease-fire and that President Saakashvili had issued such an order to our army, and we  did not return fire, even when they bombarded two of our villages. I told the president we should pay the price, just let there be peace. But when we found out that they were  continuing to transfer more weapons through the Roki Tunnel [between Russia and Ossetia], we had to attack. It was a matter of screwing or being screwed."

Despite the Russian army's advance toward Tbilisi on Wednesday, Yakobashvili said he believes the cease-fire reached through French mediation will hold.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1011298.html

All that sucking up to Bush and AIPAC may not do you too much good now. Will those arms deals with Russia
fall though?  Where are you going to get your oil now?  Only Egypt?  Better fire up Dimona for some powrer instead of atomic bombs. You know like the Iranians are planning to do.  Power not bombs thats a good motto
for Israel too.

Don't call me poor because i'm far away from creatures like you whose only wish is to place human beings in ovens or set medical researches on children. and if ever kinds like you get to my country you will get your haircut slightly damaged if you ain't bald like other Krauts.

hahahha, Jewish grandchildren... must be Hans and Jurgen ... whatajoke...

What we do know about you mdma is you must inhabit a wheel chair, because you have nothing to post, but personal insults as you've proved well, you never have a leg to stand on.

f$%#$%^ Nazi now you want me on wheel chair! You won't get me that easy, v4nq!sh! I'm not one of those poor bastards you got there in Poland during WWII.
Yeah i have nothing to post. Should i copy paste articles to fill the gap?

Golden words, Peis, golden words. Except small lies about S-300. President Pryschenko denied sale of S-200 (S-300 are not produced in Ukroland) to Georgia.
Only anti-aircraft missile system "OSA", "Buk" surface-to-air missiles, some MI-8, MI-24  copters.
The deal was made 5 years back according to Ukros.

Ukrainian s-300? The one that downed Russian passenger plane with 160+ Israeli passengers thinking it was one plane Russian invasion? In your place, mr.Green i would hide somewhere in Siberia from Ukrainian weaponry given to Georgians. Think that every 'hachik' at every 'aul' will have such advanced anti aircraft device. At the end you will learn how interesting fight with guerrilla is.

Ukranian S-200, actually. For what Ukraine had paid to your folk, dont' you remember, kid?
A sho, new evidences popped up?

I'm not Russian to sell human lives.
Ukraine will pay when we will take few of their planes as there much more Ukrainians than us.

But how much will Geogians suffer as the result of their leader's ambition and trust in what turned out to be a "paper tiger?"

Bush has "tweaked the bear" with Reagan's "star wars" mostly to satisfy the "military industrial complex" with the missile defense deployment on Putin's borders. Along with the loss of the oil pipeline on the Black Sea, that might have provided oil to Israel, the people of Georgia are suffering from Saakashvili's ambition and decision to trust what has turned out to be a "paper tiger."  Mushroom Cloud Condi, the "Russian expert" continues to do her employer's bidding, with the same lack of results she's shown since 9-11 in all her actions.

While humanitarian aid my be provided by air, the U.S. Naval "rescue" turned out be another Bush error.

One can only feel for the civilians who are always the one who suffer from the choice of their leaders, not all that much different from the Iraqis who continue to die because of the U.S. occupiers, who unless the "sovereign" Iraqi government finally makes the decision to remove the catalyst for much of the violence.

Georgians still hoping that U.S. military will arrive

Tom Lasseter | McClatchy Newspapers

last updated: August 15, 2008 06:11:25 PM

TBILISI, Georgia  Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Friday persuaded Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili to sign a cease-fire agreement calling for Russian tanks to withdraw from much of the country.

President Bush, meanwhile, scolded Russian leaders for continuing to occupy Georgian territory and promised that citizens of this country won't be forgotten.

But in refugee centers across Tbilisi, men and women who'd fled their burning villages wanted to know when the support would move beyond words. They wanted to know when the Americans, or perhaps the Europeans, were coming to save them.

"America is the only light left for Georgia," said Shota Tsotniashvili, who left his home north of the capital and was sharing a small room in a Tbilisi kindergarten building with his mother, wife and three children. "Bush knows what to do."

Tsotniashvili had been living in a town near South Ossetia, the Russian-backed breakaway province that Georgian troops tried to retake last week. After Russia  seemingly unchallenged  responded by sending thousands of troops along with fighter jets, Tsotniashvili fled.

"When I left, the bombs were falling. My wife almost went crazy," Tsotniashvili said. "A lot of people were hiding in basements. Some of them died when the buildings above them were bombed. They just collapsed."

Human Rights Watch, an international advocacy group, said it had found evidence that the onslaught in Georgia included cluster bombs in civilian areas, a charge that the Russian government denied.

On Friday, even as Rice met with Saakashvili, Russian tanks and soldiers remained in Gori, less than an hour away.

The peace deal that Saakashvili agreed to, and Russia has agreed to sign, is vague in parts, with Russia retaining the right to defend its interests, a measure that Moscow apparently has taken to mean that it can dismantle much of Georgia's military infrastructure. Kremlin officials also have repeatedly called into question whether South Ossetia and its fellow breakaway province, Abkhazia, would remain parts of Georgia.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said the cease-fire principles provided a "necessary and sufficient base for achieving a settlement.'

Bush issued yet another statement in Washington. "The people of Georgia have cast their lot with the free world, and we will not cast them aside," he said. The Pentagon confirmed that more than 80 tons of humanitarian aid had arrived to Georgia and that more was on the way.

But in what's certainly one of the most pro-American nations in the world  a major thoroughfare here is named for Bush, who in 2005 called Georgia a "beacon of liberty"  people were having a hard time understanding the lack of U.S. intervention.

Read the complete article along with additional ones on the link.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/48497.html

It's because you missed the reason why the whole war started. Russia unlike USA acts accordingly to UN mandate of peace-keepers and our primary goal is to stop further bloodshed in the region. Only Americans retaliate to 2000+ victims killed in twin towers as  bombing down of two independent nations (Iraq and Afghanistan), while Russia hasn't reached the capital and never intended to. We respect democratically elected president and unlike Americans never planned regime-change coup. We don't need additional zone of responsibility, especially in such an unstable region like Caucasus (if it doesn't hurt our security, of course).

This is rich.  What noble sacrifices! ::)

As for being a democracy, your government hardly fits the bill.  I'm ashamed and annoyed by my government's problems in foreign policy, but I condemn the claims of "humanitarianism" both my government used in Iraq and that which your nation used to nakedly serve as a lesson to less tractable nations in the former Soviet Union.  If humanitarianism had been the motive, South Ossetian militias would hardly have had free reign to torch and pillage ethnic Georgian towns and villages.

More humanitarianism, I guess. >:(http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/16/europe/EU-Georgia-South-Ossetia.php (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/16/europe/EU-Georgia-South-Ossetia.php)

The war in Georgia is just a rebound in a 20 years old clanic conflict.

Poeple are talking as if Georgia, Ossetia, Abkhazia etc were countries with a President, a Foreign Minister and so on... Nope: They are regions controlled by large families controlling the business and political life and called mafias by the locals

If South Ossetia is controlled by Russia, it's only because the mafia there has russian links. While the Georgian mafias had to seek support somewhere else.

It's not about oil. Let alone a pipeline route to Israel! LOL!
The pipeline overthere is quite small and has been shut down before the conflict started for safety reason and no one noticed it. No country depends on the Georgian pipeline. We can build such pipeline everywhere. Georgia is not the favorite transit place for oil.

LoL !!

The Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan provides europe with 1 MILLION barrels of oil per day. that's 6% of europe oil needs. The pipeline has a capacity of 10 million barrels per day. enough to supply europe with oil without dealing with Russia.

The only transit route of caspian sea oil is either russia or georgia. no caspian oil can reach Europe without passing in one of those 2 countries. check out the maps..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan_pipeline

Just a quick point: the atrocities are not all on the Russian side. Georgia bombarded South Ossetian towns for 16 hours, razed them to the ground, before Russia retaliated. I think in that situation Russia could say "we have given the West 16 hours to stop this, now we will stop this."

Of course, they went well past this mark a long time ago. But lets not pretend that Georgia is entirely blameless.

Askari, knowing full well few who post on IAP have much of a penchant for reading, even though this long article was posted in 2007, maybe we are actually seeing the
fruition of the Israeli involvement and their continued need for oil.  The article also provides interesting maps.  While it is more than clear, there is no possibility for Bush to
provide the military support that apparently was expected in this conflict, it may be worthwhile information to check out?

Oil and Israel       
By Andrea Crandall      
Feb/07/2007
Debate on the motivation for the Iraq War is shepherded into two camps: securing oil or  securing Israel. In reality, the war is being fought to secure oil through  Israel. US foreign policy is geared to make Israel its primary transport  route for Middle Eastern and Central Asian oil. This also accomplishes two Israeli aims: ending dependence on US aid and toppling uncooperative neighbors.

Richard Perle's memo to Benjamin Netanyahu, “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing The Realm,”[1] is rightfully cited as evidence of Israel's influence in the US's decision to attack Iraqi. However, overthrowing Saddam is not the main point of this memo. The “clean break” refers to ending Israel's dependence on US aid, which weakens Israel, and is the main source of control the US has over its ally.

This change in policy comes at a good time for the US. Friendly oil sources are dwindling. Massive spending on the Iraq invasion, as well as AIPAC spying scandals,[2] have drawn negative attention to the amount of US-Israeli aid. America's contributions to Israel may not be politically justifiable forever -- the States needs an out.

The “Clean-Breakers” in Israel have a big job to do. They must wean Israel from sixty years of aid and cheap loans from the US, during a shaky time for the Israeli economy. Before Perle et alia  can free themselves from American interference, they need to find an alternative source of revenue. That type of revenue isn't going to come from featherless chickens[3] or even arms sales to China.[4] Israeli leaders have fallen back on the commodity that helped create Israel in the first place.

http://sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1118

Have times changed that much in the past two years plus? Has Israel quit purchasing Russian oil? Does that U.S. oil corporation pipeline in the Caucuses mean nothing to
Israel as a closer source for oil?  Plenty of questions, but little other than lockstep answers.  But most of all have some of the responses been based more on the lockstep
mentality ignoring the reality that since the cold war ended and the USSR was no longer the reality, Russia has been in economic ascendency while the U.S. is now in dependency primarily with the Chinese bankers?

Ha! Cass, always centering every conflict around Israel?

This is ridiculous.
There is no direct pipeline from georgia to Israel.
Israel is a tiny oil consumer, why focusing on the zionist/jews?

Nobody cares about the georgian pipeline, but georgian and russian themselves: In absence of ceasefire, no oil or gaz goes through it and no body is paying.
The russians and the georgian were forced into a ceasefire because they lost too much money in this silly war.

Russia has plenty of clients for their oil, they don't need a pipeline in Georgia.
Just look at the size of the russian oil industry... Why would they fight for that? If the russians want to control this pipeline, they'll buy a part via consortium.

Apparently, Fred, you chose not to read. Nothing new, but expected.  Of course there is no direct pipeline between Georgia and Israel, it is located for transport by sea. In specific the Black Sea. The same location Bush couldn't send those Naval rescuers into.  But the maps on the post are instructive, but those who prefer to argue than read rarely bother.

You should know well that little takes place in the whole region Israel is not involved in. Think about Golda's long ago quote, "Let me tell you something that we Israelis have against Moses. He took us 40 years through the desert in order to bring us to the one spot in the Middle East that has no oil!" Golda Meir

And then there is this from the Jerusalem post only in June. The complete article since you don't appear to bother to read.

Is Israel indirectly buying Iranian oil?
Jun. 12, 2008
Abe Selig , THE JERUSALEM POST

Having adamantly denied for months that Israel could possibly be purchasing any oil originating in Iran, an Israeli official has now acknowledged that the Jewish state cannot be sure that Iranian oil is not coming here indirectly, and a former Israeli energy minister has told The Jerusalem Post that Iranian oil may have been imported indirectly for years and that he would have readily authorized such purchases himself.

"I don't see any problem if Iranian oil is arriving in Israel," said Moshe Shahal, who served as energy minister from 1984 to 1990, "because it's not coming straight from Iran."

Shahal explained that once oil is on the open market, its source becomes clouded. In a sense, he said, the oil loses its nationality while retaining its quality.

"The national oil companies sell their oil to buyers who in turn sell the oil on the free market," Shahal went on. And it was entirely possible that Israel had therefore been buying oil that originated in Iran for years. "The people selling the barrels of oil never see a barrel of oil in their life, they're just making the sales," he said.

"In my time, people came to me and said we had the opportunity to buy oil from all kinds of exotic locations - including Libyan oil or Syrian oil - countries with whom we obviously don't have normal relations," said former Labor MK Shahal, now a lawyer in Tel Aviv. "I approved those purchases, because it was good oil, and it wasn't coming directly from the governments of those countries, but from private sellers on the free market."

Today, he said, "I don't believe there is a target to specifically buy oil from Iran. But if it is being purchased, it would be through these types of opportunities."

The issue arose earlier this year, when EnergiaNews.com, an Israeli Web site that follows business and energy-related stories, asserted that Iranian oil was regularly reaching Israel, despite the dire state of relations between the two countries, with Teheran regularly predicting Israel's imminent demise and Israel leading the calls for greater international efforts, including wideranging trade sanctions, to thwart Iran's nuclear program. EnergiaNews.com reported that the oil was being transported and purchased through one of the world's largest commercial ports, Rotterdam.

"This is well known around the world," said Moshe Shalev, the editor of EnergiaNews and the author of the article. Shalev said that after the oil is purchased through a third party, the Haifa-based oil company, Eilat-Ashkelon Pipeline, stores it and then moves it to Bazan, Israel's largest oil refinery, also located in Haifa, to prepare it for commercial consumption.

Shalev cited a source with ties to Bazan as initially leaking the story. He maintained that the Eilat-Ashkelon Pipeline has Iranian ties dating back to the time of the shah.

The National Infrastructures Ministry initially flatly denied any such supply route. Spokesman Assaf Azoulai told the Post, "Every oil shipment to Israel comes with certification as to where it's from, and Israel is not purchasing oil from Iran."

But Azoulai subsequently told the Post, "We buy oil from the biggest producers in the world, and there's no way of knowing where it comes from." Nonetheless, he still maintained, the "rumor" of Israel buying Iranian oil was "nonsense."

In a written reply to the Post, an Eilat-Ashkelon Pipeline spokeswoman denied the EnergiaNews claim that her company buys oil at all, stating that it only provides "logistical services at the port and assists in the transportation of oil."

The Eilat-Ashkelon Pipeline was set up to transport oil from the shah's Iran to Israel. Such trade dated back to the 1950s, but the pipeline was opened in 1968 to ease the supply. Iranian oil, which was shipped to Eilat, was both consumed in Israel and transported on to Europe. After Iran's Islamic revolution in 1979, all direct contacts with Israel - oil deals included - were severed.

A spokesman for Bazan also categorically rejected the idea that his company uses oil originating in Iran. "That's absolutely not true," he said. "We know where all of our oil comes from, and none of it comes from Iran. It is all labeled and orderly. We are not buying oil from Iran, period."

A spokeswoman at the Iranian Embassy in London also distanced the Islamic Republic from any such supply. "I can confirm that Iran has no deal with a company having anything to do with Israel," she told the Post.

But echoing Shahal's explanation, world oil market specialist Shmuel Even said that Israel may very well be making such purchases indirectly.

"Oil is a commodity, like gold," he said. "You can buy it from anybody and sell it to everybody. It's quite possible that Israeli companies are buying oil in Europe which originated in Iran. But it's not official, it's on the free market, and I don't think it's a political issue."

The harbor master at Rotterdam Port, T. Selegars, said that both Iranian and Israeli ships came through his port, and that the Iranians were depositing shipments of crude oil there.

"A hundred million tons of oil are transported through the port every year, and ships come through from all over the world," he said. "Iranian ships are bringing oil to Rotterdam, and it is theoretically possible that oil is transported from here to Israel."

After the EnergiaNews piece was first published, in March, an oped article in the UK's Guardian newspaper termed the alleged Israel-Iran connection the "definition of hypocrisy" given Israel's call for heightened economic pressure on Teheran.

The story was also cited by the Swiss newspaper Sonntag after Israel complained that the Swiss foreign minister's March visit to Iran and subsequent signing of a multi-billion euro contract for natural gas was an "act unfriendly to Israel."

Quoting an "energy expert from one of the leading Israeli papers," the Swiss report stated, "Israel has been importing Iranian oil for many years." That article went on to mention that the purchases were made on the free market and not directly from Iran.

This article can also be read at http://www.jpost.com /servlet/Satellite?cid=1212659723371&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Guess you never bother to even read Israeli sites on-line?  Add this one from DEBKAfile posted on August 8, 2008

Israel backs Georgia in Caspian Oil Pipeline Battle with Russia
DEBKAfile Exclusive Report
August 8, 2008, 4:26 PM (GMT+02:00)

Georgian tanks and infantry, aided by Israeli military advisers, captured the capital of breakaway South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, early Friday, Aug. 8, bringing the Georgian-Russian conflict over the province to a military climax.
Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin threatened a “military response.”

Former Soviet Georgia called up its military reserves after Russian warplanes bombed its new positions in the renegade province.

In Moscow’s first response to the fall of Tskhinvali, president Dimitry Medvedev ordered the Russian army to prepare for a national emergency after calling the UN Security Council into emergency session early Friday.
Reinforcements were rushed to the Russian “peacekeeping force” present in the region to support the separatists.

Georgian tanks entered the capital after heavy overnight heavy aerial strikes, in which dozens of people were killed.

Lado Gurgenidze, Georgia's prime minister, said on Friday that Georgia will continue its military operation in South Ossetia until a "durable peace" is reached. "As soon as a durable peace takes hold we need to move forward with dialogue and peaceful negotiations."

DEBKAfile’s geopolitical experts note that on the surface level, the Russians are backing the separatists of S. Ossetia and neighboring Abkhazia as payback for the strengthening of American influence in tiny Georgia and its 4.5 million inhabitants. However, more immediately, the conflict has been sparked by the race for control over the pipelines carrying oil and gas out of the Caspian region.

The Russians may just bear with the pro-US Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili’s ambition to bring his country into NATO. But they draw a heavy line against his plans and those of Western oil companies, including Israeli firms, to route the oil routes from Azerbaijan and the gas lines from Turkmenistan, which transit Georgia, through Turkey instead of hooking them up to Russian pipelines.

Saakashvili need only back away from this plan for Moscow to ditch the two provinces’ revolt against Tbilisi. As long as he sticks to his guns, South Ossetia and Abkhazia will wage separatist wars.

DEBKAfile discloses Israel’s interest in the conflict from its exclusive military sources:

Jerusalem owns a strong interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines reach the Turkish terminal port of Ceyhan, rather than the Russian network. Intense negotiations are afoot between Israel Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azarbaijan for pipelines to reach Turkey and thence to Israel’s oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to its Red Sea port of Eilat.From there, supertankers can carry the gas and oil to the Far East through the Indian Ocean.

Aware of Moscow’s sensitivity on the oil question, Israel offered Russia a stake in the project but was rejected.

Last year, the Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli security firms several hundred military advisers, estimated at up to 1,000, to train the Georgian armed forces in commando, air, sea, armored and artillery combat tactics. They also offer instruction on military intelligence and security for the central regime. Tbilisi also purchased weapons, intelligence and electronic warfare systems from Israel.

These advisers were undoubtedly deeply involved in the Georgian army’s preparations to conquer the South Ossetian capital Friday.

In recent weeks, Moscow has repeatedly demanded that Jerusalem halt its military assistance to Georgia, finally threatening a crisis in bilateral relations. Israel responded by saying that the only assistance rendered Tbilisi was “defensive.”

This has not gone down well in the Kremlin. Therefore, as the military crisis intensifies in South Ossetia, Moscow may be expected to punish Israel for its intervention.

http://debka.com/article_print.php?aid=1358

Yet another map is included on the link.

Reading can be such an advantage, particularly in a discussion of foreign policy as do maps.

This news is a week old. Georgian POV are forced to clean the city from the rubble and destroyed arms.
No law prohibits this.

He is a member of stromfront.org so in your place i wouldn't wonder why he somehow manages to stick Israel to any shithole around the world.

Cass

I'v been reading the whole articles. Yet I still wonder why you posted them.
The first is irrelevant (it's talking of some Iran oil being purchased indirectly by israel - Interrsting but nothing to do with the Georgian conflict)

The second is plain BS: Why would Israel be behind a conflict which precisely shut down the pipeline supposed to bring them oil?
It's Shaakashvili who attacked Ossetia first and it was very bad for the multinational consortium operating the pipeline. Probably for that reason Shaakashvili didn't get the US support he expected. he goofed with oil and now the West arranged a cease-fire behind his back.
Secondly, the article pretends to let me believe that Israel would have been involved in a conflict AGAINST Russia? And about oil on top of that? Come on...

The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline is providing oil to a wide range of countries, via a wide range of companies, each owning from 2 to 12% stakes in the pipeline.
Israel is at best a small partner here. Israel uses maybe 0.3% of this oil. And you talk as if the pipeline was build for them. Absurd.

Fred the point was Israel like most any other issue in the region is head over heels involved with both arms and oil with both the Georgian government as they they are with Russia.  At times it takes a little effort to read and as a  result connect the dots.  In this case they may get screwed from a number of directions. The U.S., Russian and
they've already hauled the arms dealers out of Georgia.  There are many sources showing the oil and arms involvement, but if one choose to live in denial of reality, there isn't much I can do other than ask you to read and make the effort to understand some complex issues.  See if you can figure out what is going on here and see if you think Israel might be involved.

Back-door US-Russian contacts to de-escalate war of words - after Moscow threatens to nuke Poland
DEBKAfile Special Report and Analysis
August 16, 2008, 9:02 AM (GMT+02:00)
DEBKAfile reports that both powers have begun acting to cool the rhetoric and review relations, after spokesmen in Washington - and especially Moscow - raised the threat level of their oratory to its highest pitch since the Cold War’s end.

Friday night, Aug. 15, Russia’s deputy chief of staff Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn warned Poland it was “exposing itself to a strike 100 percent.”

He said any new US assets in Europe could come under Russian nuclear attack. Russian forces would target “the allies of countries having nuclear weapons” to destroy them “as a first priority,” said Gen. Nogovitsyn.
At the Black Sea resort of Sochi, Russian president Dimitry Medvedev dismissed the claim that the US missile interceptors in Poland were a deterrent against rogue states like Iran as “a fairy tale,” insisting they were aimed against Russia. Warsaw, which will receive 10 batteries in return for American aid to boost its air defenses, later invited Russia to visit the site and see for itself.

President George W. Bush said "The Cold War is over… Bullying and intimidation are not acceptable ways to conduct foreign policy in the 21st century."

He said Russia’s invasion of Georgia had damaged its credibility and the US stands with the people of Georgia and called for the withdrawal of “invading forces from all Georgian territory.”

Russian and Georgian presidents have both signed the ceasefire brokered by France. But Russian troops and tanks and marauding irregulars in the areas under their control had still not left Georgia by Saturday Saturday. Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said extra security arrangements needed to be put in place before a withdrawal could begin, in defiance of US demand that Russian troops leave immediately.

After meeting German chancellor Angela Merkel, Medvedev said he could not see South Ossetia and Abkhazia living with Georgia in one state.”

US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice persuaded Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili to sign on the dotted line Friday night. DEBKAfile’s political sources report that, as in most cases when international tensions and violence reach dangerous levels, the big powers have instituted secret diplomacy to cool the situation before it gets out of hand in order to formulate new modes of conduct and relations.
This process began with Rice’s visit to France and Tbilsi.

And then add this one.

Russia considers nuclear missiles for Syria, Mediterranean, Baltic
DEBKAfile Special Report

August 17, 2008, 9:25 AM (GMT+02:00)
DEBKAfile's military sources report Moscow's planned retaliation for America's missile interceptors in Poland and US-Israeli military aid to Georgia may come in the form of installing Iskandar surface missiles in Syria and its Baltic enclave of Kaliningrad.

Russian Baltic and Middle East warships, submarines and long-range bombers may be armed with nuclear warheads, according to Sunday newspapers in Europe.

In Georgia, Russian troops and tanks advanced to within 30 km of Tbilisi Saturday, Aug. 15. A Russian general said Sunday they had started pulling out after president Dimitry Medvedev signed the ceasefire agreement with Georgia and president George W. Bush called again for an immediate withdrawal.

After routing Georgia over the breakaway enclaves of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Moscow appears to be eying Poland, the Middle East, and possibly Ukraine, as the main arenas for its reprisals.

One plan on the table in Moscow, DEBKAfile's sources report, is the establishment of big Russian military, naval and air bases in Syria and the release of advanced weapons systems withheld until now to Iran (the S-300 air-missile defense system) and Syria (the nuclear-capable 200 km-range Iskandar surface missile).

Shortly before the Georgian conflict flared, Moscow promised Washington not to let Iran and Syria have these sophisticated pieces of hardware.

The Iskander's cruise attributes make its launch and trajectory extremely hard to detect and intercept. If this missile reaches Syria, Israel will have to revamp its anti-missile defense array and Air Force assault plans for the third time in two years, as it constitutes a threat which transcends all its defensive red lines.

Moscow's war planners know this and are therefore considering new sea and air bases in Syria as sites for the Iskander missiles. Russia would thus keep the missiles under its hand and make sure they were not transferred to Iran. At the same time, Syrian crews would be trained in their operation.

DEBKAfile's military sources report Syrian president Bashar Assad will be invited to Moscow soon to finalize these plans in detail.

Military spokesmen in Moscow said Saturday and Sunday that Russian military planners to started redesigning the nation’s strategic plans for a fitting response to America's decision to install 10 missile interceptors in Poland and the war developments in Georgia.

The chairman of the Israeli Knesset foreign affairs and defense committee, Tzahi Hanegbi, spoke out strongly Sunday, Aug. 17, against treasury plans to slash the defense budget. He warned that the military faced grave confrontations in the coming year - possibly on several fronts.

In five hours of arm-twisting, she persuaded Saakashvili to accept clarifications to the ceasefire accord which contradict Washington’s spirited assurances for Georgia’s “territorial integrity.”

Russian troops allowed to remain in Georgia would be “very limited to a light patrolling ability, such as a few kilometers outside of South Ossetia, not the right to maintain a presence inside Georgia.”

Furthermore, “Russian peacekeepers” would be allowed to “implement additional security measures” until international security can be put in place.

This clause authorizes on behalf of the US and Europe the narrow security strips, which DEBKAfile’s military sources revealed two days ago the Russians are establishing 300-500 meters deep outside the South Ossetian and Abkhazian borders with Georgia.

This American concession was designed as initial impetus for quiet diplomacy with Russia on a settlement in Georgia.

The other concession, which will unfold in time, is the removal of the Georgian president, another of Moscow’s conditions for ending the crisis. It is hard to see Saakasvhili surviving the outcry at home when the extent of his military and diplomatic failures is revealed to his people.

Furthermore, his highly charged speech Friday was watched with pursed lips by Condoleezza Rice and clearly embarrassed his sponsors in Washington. While Bush declared the Cold War is over, Saakashvili heaped verbal coals on the standoff with Russia to keep it ablaze.

Could it be that after Georgia decided to "tweak the bear" and Bush decided to put missiles in Poland and the
Ukraine, Israel might not want nuclear missiles in Syria an a Russian flotilla off their coast.  Looks to me like they're caught in the middle or up that creek without a paddle.  Just my opinion.

instead of posting anti Israeli propaganda you could spend some time learning how to post!

Cass
How long are your going to post articles which are less and less relevant to your claims of Israel involvement?
This string of articles which you post and which I read is going nowhere. Yourself, you are not able to say something coherent. It's so vague and confusing, that I still don't know what we have to open our eyes upon.
One article said that Israel had hundreds of military instructors in Georia, which from all evidences is not true.
And I still don't know what Israel would do there. Israel which is struggling with Hezbullah and Hamas, certainly won't want to mess with Russia for some inter-village vendettas in Georgia...

mdma
Cass is "she", not "he".
She has a prodigious imagination, but I can't follow it, it's too far fetched this time...

(http://img.rian.ru/images/6197/76/61977657.jpg)

Please note that most of the articles are Israeli news sites, the other one was British.  I realize Fred you're not in Israel as the ranting nut case, mdma claims to be, but maybe you don't consider the Israeli nor the British press to be valid? Could that be the case? 

Both are laying blame but Georgia has something that Russia does not....freedom. With the technology today and press on the ground why haven't we heard of these atrocities and "ethnic cleansing" that Russia so proclaimed started this war? Where are the pictures where is the proof? Isn't that what they demanded ferociously of the US before the Iraq war? Is Russia above the law?

I am watching this conflict from TV as you most people. I tried to read all this topic post's but they were so boring, and actually most of them being  out of touch with reality... First of all i think both sides are to blame. But mostly the Georgian President... who expected what ?

Some thoughts (My thoughts)
a) Maybe Israel supplied Georgia with weapons because i) it has modern US and NATO compliant weaponry technology
                                                                           ii) it has a really big weapons industry with quite low prices
So Georgia can buy cheaper and easier (without US Congress limitations), NATO compliant weaponry. Georgia needs them if she wants to enter the NATO.
Greece and Turkey in the past had bought NATO compliant weaponry from Israel.
b) Israelian Weaponry Industries are having some sort of cooperation with some Russian weaponry Industries. I remember one case in Greece, and one case in Turkish Military Helicopters competitions.
c) I think simply Georgian president made a stupid mistake. And because he claimed the whole south Ossetia, now he lost all of it, even the part which was under Georgian Control.
d) I think the Russians couldn't do anything else, than attack... it would be foolish to except that Russia would just stand there and don't even fight.
e) I think South Ossetia and Abkhazia are like Kosovo. It depends on how you feel about the Kosovo issue.
f) The war is about EVERYTHING, but mostly for prestige... not Oil.


Georgia won't become easily a part of NATO... most nations inside NATO have many agreements with Russia, and will never get into trouble to support Georgia and fight against their basic Energy Supplier Russia...
The Baku Ceyhan pipeline doesn't feed 70% of Europe...  And appart from Oil, EU needs big amounts of natural Gas and many other resources which come primarily from nearby Russia.


Greek media showed facts which CNN and BBC didn't refer too. That's why in Greece most people didn't support neither Georgia nor Russia.

PeiramatoZwo,  a Greek bearing some real gifts. I'm sorry you found the articles boring. Attempting to put a group of unrelated articles in this rather boring form of discussion was no doubt so. But they do all connect into a big picture.  Foreign policy, most especially the inter-political and even more so, economic relationships between
Israel and the U.S., is IMHO even more so.  But it is a waste to attempt to do so on a forum that values argument far more than information. BYW, I don't even mean debate, I mean personal vile attacks which are often the preferable form of communication by some.   

But another factor that is also relevant is the corporate state control of the U.S. MSM. It nice to know you have
the availability of more valid information sources and for all practical purpose, other than energy requirements,
are not in a nation that in the current new debacle brought about by actions of the U.S. is  essentially uninvolved. Correct me if I'm incorrect in that assumption.

It were it not for the internet, many in the U.S. would be almost totally unable to acquire even minimal valid information.  Certainly little comes from any official government source. In reality there is not unlike Hitler's Germany a specific group on military facilities specifically designed to promote propaganda. Feel free to google
and read about Information Operation Roadmap. Not talking about the proposed long ago peace settlement in Israel. A couple of sites, one U.S. and one Canadian are interesting if that might interest you.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/PrintArticle.php?articleId=7980

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Information_Operations_Roadmap

I appreciate your comments, even the negative ones. As I said they were a gift and relevant. 

Cass don't get this personall. I was referring to many posts by other users too. Offcourse long replies, especially with long articles in them, are not the best way to express your point of view in a forum.

Actually as you said Greece is uninvolved, and wishes to remain, offcourse it is a NATO ally, but Greece the late years has very good relations with Russia, from energy till the tourism industry.

When it comes to information, i fear that internet instead of promoting information, has ended up into a tool of propaganda by many.

I still believe that in this case Israel had nothing to benefit from an indirect involvement in this conflict.



PS. This topic is soooo offtopic.

I'm telling you he is a member of stormfront.org nicknamed v4nqu!sh, he pretends all the time to be a woman when he is a man with homosexual fantasies. he been exposed during late 2005.


Now lets back to the topic! If someone on Middle East benefits from this conflict those are Iranians and Arabs who directly benefit from Israeli armory being exposed by Russians which will result in deeper armor connections between Russia and Israeli enemies.
Israel is one of top weaponry manufacturers in the world, many armies have Israeli weapons. I would say Russian weapons in Hezballahs hands are not better than Israeli in Georgian.

mdma, if this posted information from the Israeli DEBKAfile, is truthful, you may be absolutely correct in your assessment.  LOL, as to my personal sexuality your continued attempts at insults are only amusing.

Russia considers nuclear missiles for Syria, Mediterranean, Baltic
DEBKAfile Special Report
August 17, 2008, 9:18 PM (GMT+02:00)

DEBKAfile's military sources report Moscow's planned retaliation for America's missile interceptors in Poland and US-Israeli military aid to Georgia may come in the form of installing Iskandar surface missiles in Syria and its Baltic enclave of Kaliningrad.

Russian Baltic and Middle East warships, submarines and long-range bombers may be armed with nuclear warheads, according to Sunday newspapers in Europe.

In Georgia, Russian troops and tanks advanced to within 30 km of Tbilisi Saturday, Aug. 15. A Russian general said Sunday they had started pulling out after president Dimitry Medvedev signed the ceasefire agreement with Georgia and president George W. Bush called again for an immediate withdrawal.

After routing Georgia over the breakaway enclaves of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Moscow appears to be eying Poland, the Middle East, and possibly Ukraine, as the main arenas for its reprisals.

One plan on the table in Moscow, DEBKAfile's sources report, is the establishment of big Russian military, naval and air bases in Syria and the release of advanced weapons systems withheld until now to Iran (the S-300 air-missile defense system) and Syria (the nuclear-capable 200 km-range Iskandar surface missile).

Shortly before the Georgian conflict flared, Moscow promised Washington not to let Iran and Syria have these sophisticated pieces of hardware.

The Iskander's cruise attributes make its launch and trajectory extremely hard to detect and intercept. If this missile reaches Syria, Israel will have to revamp its anti-missile defense array and Air Force assault plans for the third time in two years, as it constitutes a threat which transcends all its defensive red lines.

Moscow's war planners know this and are therefore considering new sea and air bases in Syria as sites for the Iskander missiles. Russia would thus keep the missiles under its hand and make sure they were not transferred to Iran. At the same time, Syrian crews would be trained in their operation.

DEBKAfile's military sources report Syrian president Bashar Assad will be invited to Moscow soon to finalize these plans in detail.

Military spokesmen in Moscow said Saturday and Sunday that Russian military planners to started redesigning the nation’s strategic plans for a fitting response to America's decision to install 10 missile interceptors in Poland and the war developments in Georgia.

The chairman of the Israeli Knesset foreign affairs and defense committee, Tzahi Hanegbi, spoke out strongly Sunday, Aug. 17, against treasury plans to slash the defense budget. He warned that the military faced grave confrontations in the coming year - possibly on several fronts.

http://www.debka.com/headline_print.php?hid=5513

common, James! stop being a pussy tell them who you really are!

LOL, and you call yur articles "information"?
It's not because they are Israelis or British that they convince me. Nothing in these articles shows that Israel has a political agenda in Georgia.

So let's say Israel has sold weapons to Georgia and maybe sent a few technicians to teach how to use them (by no means the hundreds of military trainers on the battlefield previousely reported). So what?
They do that with everybody who buy weapons from them.

Again, oversimplification and total ignorance in geography and european politics.

The Ossietian and Abkhazian conflict are local business with no link to the external world (I mean the group of hills where the shoot-outs happen).

Georgia is far from being in Nato, the missile shield in Poland is far from being build (I know Poland), and Russia is not going to change their attitude with their main trading partner just because the Georgian mafia godfather has shelled Ossetian civilians.

PiermatoZwo
I agree with you. Shaakashvili has made a big mistake. IMO, what an idiot.

First he should have known that he had no chance against the Russian army.
Second South Ossetians are pro-russians, he had no support in the local population, especialy after he bombarded them.

IMO, he is very lucky it's the moderate Medvediev who is president, otherwise Russian soldiers would have occupied the whole Geogia and started a Chechen style conflict.

I reckon Medvedev is not the president but i agree with the rest. Neither i think Saakashvili was the one to decide whether to trigger Russian dumbasses or not. Georgia start to remind me my own country which used as a tool in bigger game.

Once more though you apparently paid no attention to the ZEBAKfile article, it is from your country mdma, once more ignoring your inability to avoid more insults, we are in agreement.

Fredledingue

Actually in South Ossetia there we 2 areas. One under the "Separist Pro Russian" government, and one under the Georgian Rule. Now there is only one Russian ruled Area. And offcourse most georgians will never return to the area they used to live in South Ossetia.
I don't think Russia has an agenda of capturing Georgia. Putin isn't that stupid. They want Georgia at least to become a satellite state like Finland was during cold war. They were independent but they didn't do anything to anger Russia.

James, i thought you are not allowed to read Jew media ! I can assure you that ZEBAKfile is not from my country! more likely its from yours.


Now if you question was why i never answer to your posts but just flame you then
1.i'm not interested in your opinion as you mean nothing to me
2.you copy paste articles and mostly using same kind of counter punches with personal flames towards others, seen that here and there so FO,,,

Have a good prayer, James!

hello! me from Turkey and here I came to tell the point of view of turks on late event in Southje Osseti. we believe that it is Israel is responsible for what happend. it is wellknown fact Israel was suprem supplier of Georgean regime of Saakashvili with armaments. and it is also known that two state ministers of Georgia who be directly relevant to aggression against South Ossetia (minister for reintegration Temur Iakoboshvili and minister of defense of Georgia David Kezerashvili) – be patrials of Israel! then why do Israel turn Georgia in aggressor? we believe that it all has to do with plans of Washington for war against Iran. according to this plans Israel be main assaulter against Iran, when Georgia be a main staging area for tropps to atack Iran.  what happend in South Ossetia be a testing of Georgian military 'in the field'. basically we believe that Georgian troops were be taken back from Iraq qust for the same reason – to get ready to atack Iran from Georgia.

Topic split: Replies from Dayan can be found in the inferno.

I'm going to change my thoughts on this situation. It's not like the US in Afghanistan. The US is in Afghanistan because Al Qaeda attck it. It has to stay in Afghanistan. On the other hand, Russia doesn't, but it may have to resort to excessive force to even stay inside Ossetia. Don't expect Russia to win this war.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27009739/

TBILISI, Georgia - A car exploded outside the Russian military's headquarters in South Ossetia on Friday, killing seven people and wounding three, the government of the Moscow-backed separatist region said.

The chief of the Russian military in South Ossetia said the dead were all members of the Russian peacekeeping force based there, Russia's Interfax news agency reported.

It begins.....