IAP Political Forum

Yup, I'm starting up another one. As I've never really partaken in this section, I apologize if this argument has been covered already. But I found this argument against the existence to be one of the better I've heard:

"If there is a creator then he obviously either can't do anything about the suffering in the world, or he just won't.

If he can't do anything about it, he is not All-powerful. And if he can but won't, then he is not All-loving.

If he is not all powerful, and can't relieve my suffering, then why should I rely on him? I'm better to rely on myself. And if he is not all powerful, is he really a God?

If he can but won't, then why rely on him since he won't do it? If he was going to, he would have done it a long time ago."

I've heard some rebuttals to this, which have all been debunked. But, what say you?

That argument only disproves a certain kind of god: one who is good and all powerful. It doesn't preclude there being a) an evil god b) a god who is incapable of stopping suffering.

I'm an atheist, but that argument is quite limited in scope.

That only assumes that you can reason in the same position as God, while you can't.

For example, define 'all-loving'. You can't.

It disproves the God that is supported by the biggest religion in the world.... That's all ;).

Truth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQMQxJKKjcU

For your argument to work there would have to be some sense in which suffering is good.

I'm waiting.

I believe that god is the force/being that created the universe and is responsible for the unchallengeable laws of physics. Any atheist physicist will tell you that physics not god created the universe, but they will not tell you why that matter existed in the first place, why it spontaneously created a universe, or even why the laws of physics work the way they do. So in answer to these unanswerable questions, I believe god did it. So I'm not sure if I believe in an all-loving god, in my opinion, humanity as a race is so small and insignificant when compared to the rest of the universe, that any all powerful being that spent its time tinkering in our affairs would be waisting its time anyways.

That's the problem with it all right there. You cannot explain something, so you feel the need to create some sort of superficial being so that it all makes sense. It's craziness.

Why? Where's your evidence?

Suffering can be 'good'.

"Salvation of people depend upon themselves, upon their capacity for suffering and sacrifice." - Mohandis Gandhi

In the sense that Gandhi meant here, suffering in the short term can lead to betterment later.

In another, individual sense, there are times when suffering can lead to introspection, possibly catalyzing change for the positive.

He's not doing anything about it? Really? Don't you see God working through churches and other organizations to alleviate suffering? 300 volunteers from my church went down to New Orleans to rebuild houses.  Does that reflect God's inabillity or his apathy?


You pose these as if they were mutually exclusive alternatives (i.e. not all-loving or not all-powerful); They aren't.  You have not provided definitions for all-powerful or all-knowing as Wong pointed out.  Here is a simple illustration; A parent who vaccinates their child from Polio is loving, are they not? Despite the painful prick of the needle? Sometimes pain is necessary. 

In other cases, we chose to cause pain or suffering.  Is love more readily demonstrated through protection or through free will? IOW, would you prefer that God hold your hand and tell you exactly what to do? Is that what good parents do?  One of the best things my parents ever did was kick me out of the house and send me to college...


Do what you want...


Not the best argument I've heard.  It is a false dilemma fallacy.

It is only a false dichotomy if suffering is good in all the circumstances in which it arises.

Also, the parent analogy doesn't apply, since parents can only make the best of the world they live in, which requires sacrifice, whereas "god" created the world in which suffering is necessary.

Iamme already posted some good points. So I will just add to one point.

Wow, people form your church volunteered to go help Hurricane Katrina? Awesome. I don't see how you can call it God's work. I could easily call it doing the right thing in order to avoid hell. I know plenty of people who volunteered just because it was the right thing to do. You have volunteer organizations such as the Americorps who did the same thing. Did they need God in order to do that? Absolutely not.
If God was powerful enough to create the Earth, I'm sure he could of done something for the poor victims of NO. Of course, you'll just call it warranted suffering because you can't come to terms with the unknown.

And just to add on. Anyone who needs the Bible or a WWJD bracelet to tell them to be a good person belongs in "hell" to begin with.

Creator was powerful enough to create this world. Now none of us knows the reason but what i can certainly claim what some human may define as 'suffering that GOD cannot stop' could be things GOD wants those ppl pass though or he is not interested in stopping them. Look on the picture bit bigger. I don't know about Irish Lenin but Totino you definitely play PC games because you could play COD4 on Linux while no0ne else could. Think of our planet as Sim City game when GOD doesn't play it for fun IMHO.

Ask yourself what reason would you have to create another world which will be possible in next 1000 years if we remain alive till then.

I would open lots of simulations worlds ( which run on higher speeds)
1.to experiment on them
2.to test my policies on them first
3.to get technological progress as we know any human being can create and few can do one thing differently which maybe a "reinventing the wheel' to some but to other can be the solution.

be bit more creative than just atheists who make a religion out of their disbelief.



What i dislike about religious is that they set themselves as center that GOD needs to be concentrated on or make them special AND not belief on GOD itself.

You have no evidence for this claim.


This is interesting. I have come across this idea before, though not in terms of Sim City.

I don't think I follow your logic here.  A false dilemma merely demonstrates that they are not mutually exclusive (i.e. there are instances in which they could both occur).  It does not mean that they must match every time.

Did God create a world in which suffering is necessary? Or is he making the best of the world we altered?

What about my other example? How does free will fall into the discussion of all-loving vs. all-powerful?

If those within my church claim they desire to do God's will then I will assume they are telling me the truth. 
I see no selfish motive in going to NO.  What else could it be? Rarely do I ever buy that bs hell line btw.  The only time I do is from soldiers or elderly folk on their death beds.


Wonderful! You have identified other instruments that God has used to alleviate suffering.  Here is another can of worms entirely, but what is the 'right' thing to do? Do not expect me to know what you mean by this...


He did.  He sent people from my church and from your Americorps. 


Quite right.  In fact, a Christian would argue that we all deserve 'hell' as we are inherently flawed (see my signature below).  As such, it is the 'grace' or 'love' of God that spares us from what we deserve. 

The dilemma is between this universe's suffering and an all-loving god. Providing examples of suffering that can be construed as good (with a little mental gymnastics) doesn't make it a false dilemma, since there is still suffering that serves no purpose whatsoever. In this category I would put things like children dying of cancer (something that cannot be blamed on humans, and their pesky free will). If you can make a child dying of cancer into a good thing then I will concede. 


It is a nice get-out-of-jail card, I'll give you that.

Your diluted arguments are laughable. You've now insinuated that all volunteer organizations are doing God's will. You may aswell say they are doing Santa's will. There is no proof for either.

Why are theists so keen to attribute acts of generosity to a 'God'? I am an atheist, I wholly reject any notion of a perosonal god or even a passive deist God. Does this mean I am incapable of selflessness? Where is the logic that connects people going to NO after Katrina with the existence or influence of God?

The proof for the existence of God can easily be seen in the lives changed by Him.

There are different "all loving"s?

These things are only currently "unanswerable" - they may have an answer at some point in the future. Even if they never find an answer, why do you need to revert to making stuff up just to fill in the void of knowledge?

TL;DR: Occam's Razor Fail

They're likely telling what they think is the truth, and to them, there's no distinction. Back here in reality, you're doing your own will unless God is personally coming down and actuating the little levers and switches in your head. At best they might be following the guidelines that they perceive as being God's will.


No, the people in charge at your Church and Americorps did. You may think that He's sending little coded messages or otherwise influencing things in imperceptibly subtle ways, but they're just that - imperceptible. You have no proof He's doing anything at all. Wouldn't it be quite a bit simpler for Him to come down and set things right himself? Or, if you're really a stickler for simplicity, wouldn't it make more sense that the people from Americorps are actually human beings and want to help out their fellow man?

I don't get why God gets so much credit for these "miracles"; miracles that come from people who appear to get little recognition for their selflessness.


Another thing - is the criteria for eternal torment simply being flawed? Am I the only person who sees things insanely wrong with this?

And if the Old Testament is anything to go by, both God's "grace" and "love" are pretty much non-existent - He displays many of the "flaws" that would get any mortal's ass thrown in Hell in no time.

The only thing that you need to know is that some energy force created everything that exists, ever has exsisted or ever will exist in the universe. That force is God. God is not a spiritual commander in chief. This is the big misconception. God IS everything. God Is everywhere. All solor systems burn out, are reduced back into energy and are reborn as new entities. 

We already have a word for energy. Why confuse things by calling it God?