IAP Political Forum

Reagan's "Star Wars" is used by Bush and Mushroom Cloud Condi claiming to make Europe safe from Iran and
placing missiles in "bought, bribed and paid for "allies" in Eastern Europe to "tweak the bear."  And then unnotice
by the typical US MSM, the truth comes out. A site hardly "lefty," but instead that primarily provides military information provides the truth. The so-called "missile defense" has been a huge boondoggle since it arrived in the
1980s in Reagan's imagination. Wonder how much this farce has cost the U.S. taxpayer over the years to provide
nothing of any value?  And Mushroom Cloud Condi, the claimed "Russian Expert" screws the pooch again, as she
and Bush like in Georgia continue to restart the cold war with promises they can't keep.


Missile Defense in Europe = Russia Bait?

By David Axe August 21, 2008 | 1:30:00 PMCategories: Crazy Ivans, Missiles, Politricks
 
The U.S. is expanding its controversial, and mostly untested, Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD) system into Poland and Czech Republic, provoking Russia into making thinly veiled threats. In the wake of the South Ossetia war, these threats have assumed a much more sinister edge than before.

Phil Coyle, the Pentagon's former top weapons tester (pdf!), says it's all for nothing. "The system proposed for Poland and the Czech Republic doesn't exist, has never been tested, and has no demonstrated effectiveness to defend Europe or the U.S. under realistic operational conditions," Coyle contends in an exclusive conversation with DANGER ROOM.

He says that even our existing missile defenses, installed in Alaska, couldn't stop more than one or two rudimentary missiles from, say, Iran. "For these reasons the U.S. BMD system proposed for Europe is causing strife with Russia for nothing."

Ouch. But wait, there's more, Coyle says:

You have to ask where might there be a short range missile threat from which Poland would need a defense? Russia? But Russia can overwhelm the most futuristic missile defenses we can imagine [with sheer numbers].
 If the Ground-based Mid-course system proposed for Poland were effective against missiles launched from Iran, then it would also be effective against Russian missiles launched towards the U.S. This is something which Russia cannot accept.

There are no real world missile defense needs that are driving this system. Iran is not reckless enough to attack Europe, and neither is North Korea. Knowing the past history between Russia and Poland and the Czech Republic, if I were a citizen of Poland or the Czech Republic I'd be more concerned about the real threats from Russia than the illusory threat from Iran.

(Russian SS-26 missile pictured.)

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/missile-defense.html

Phil Coyle is wrong...hands down

Raytheon's Pat Config 3 is proven and extremely well test.  The folks at RMS and IDS (MA and AZ) know what they are doing.  Its possible Coyle just isn't included on the need to know list...which is completely understandable since he no longer is employed at the DoD.

The real unspoken affects of the Russian Georgian war was how quickly public opinion in Poland and Czech truned in favor of the missile defense after Russia's invasion.  Accident?

And lest jsut falsely speculate that RTN's MD isn't proven (which it has been, twice in the persian gulf and countless times in the US southwest desert)...it doesn't change the fact that it is pumping moeny into the US economy and providing jobs for those in the defense sector.

There is a lot more going on here than what most politicians will say....a lot more

I'm hardly a military expert. Just read and have never changed my belief that Reagan's "star wars" is the biggest boondoggle foisted on the taxpayer for all these years by the military industrial complex.  Perhaps you have more reliable information? Perhaps you have some personal involvement? I don't know. What I do know is IMHO, the bottom line is the U.S. is in economic decline and Russia in ascendency.  You may disagree with that opinion. 

I read a lot from a variety of sources, but am never sure of their legitimacy.  One being the Israeli DEBKAfile which I always wonder if it is Israeli propaganda or reality.
Interesting article recently, related to Russia and Israel. Real or imagined? Actual or not? I don't know. Any opinion on these? Maybe just stirring the "war pot?"

http://www.debka.com/headline_print.php?hid=5526

http://www.debka.com/headline_print.php?hid=5523

I'm hardly a military expert. Just read and have never changed my belief bla, bla, bla, bla,bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, Perhaps you have more reliable information? Perhaps you have some personal involvement? I don't know.  What I do know is IMHO bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla,bla, bla, bla, bla,bla, bla, bla, bla. You may disagree with that opinion. 

I read a lot from a variety of sources, but am never sure of their legitimacy bla, bla, bla, bla,bla, bla, bla, bla,bla, bla, bla, bla,bla, bla, bla, bla,bla, bla, bla, bla  Interesting article recently, related to Russia and Israel. Real or imagined? Actual or not? I don't know bla, bla, bla, bla,bla, bla, bla, bla,bla, bla, bla, bla,bla, bla, bla, bla,bla, bla, bla, bla..........

This speaks volumes.

Hate will make you die from cancer, James!
Instead of that you could take your Jew pilot husband to Italy and watch Piza tower

Missile defense (Pat Config, SL-AMRAAM, AMRAAM, etc) is NOT the same thing as the "star wars" program...and just to restate, a lot of jobs and liquidity was injected into certain US markets b/c of these programs, so its not a "boondoggle" even if it were what some believe to be a failure.  A lot of science was gained from Reagan's imaged project as well.  For example:

http://www.raytheon.com/newsroom/feature/sm3_intercept/

Check out the video link on the right margin titled SM-3 vs Satellite Animation

The stuff you read about our military defense is more than likely outdated and published b/c it has become stale intel...even the most broad data requires a minimum TS clearance...you aren't going to find that in the Jane's or Stratfor's publications.

I do agree that the US economy is declining, but this is a temporary thing IMO.  Economies move in swings...and our Fed has done a good job keeping these peaks and valleys relatively flat.  Yes, Russia's econ is doing well, but look where it came from.  The Ruble was almost a defunct currency 10 years ago...there was no place to go BUT up.  Also, if you think the US has a disproportionate spread of wealth, take a look at the rest of the world.  Russia a fine example of a booming aristocracy...their future is not well hedged either.  When the oil market cools or when the world finally moves to alt. energy, Russia is going to in a bad position.

Interesting read - but really hard to stomach due to a massive logical fallacy that can't be ignored.

Premise:  Our missle defense system sucks and couldn't do anything to stop Russian missiles, ever, even with divine intervention (by the way, I disagree 100% with that assessment).

Conclusion:  We are pissing Russia off by putting up a missile defense system and we are bad guys for doing so.


If the system sucks so bad, and couldn't even stop crude rockets from Iran, why would the Russians be so concerned with it being a threat to their "strategic deterrent"?  His argument is remarkably flawed.  It seems far more likely that RUSSIA is looking for a reason to lash out and act in more hostile ways by using the missile defense as part of the argument. 

The weapon expert says the system is crap on a stick but that this crap on a stick is really stoking tensions with a global nuclear power.  Something doesn't add up.

This guy is just mifted he's out of a job which was handed to new rep from the Missile Defense Agency.

Raytheons best business development manager isn't a person....its Russia

Any updates from this info re: Raytheon? 

http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Raytheon_Company_(RTN)

For we aged who managed to survive the very long cold war, you may find a far different attitude about the continuing cash advances on that Chinese credit card to keep the military
industrial complex going strong. 

Those born in the midst of the Great Depression don't share the value system of Dutch's
greed is good generation.  Fortunately, it won't be all that long until we're gone, but my
baby boomer '60s and '70s offspring, are about to take our place.  And a lot of them at this
point are in Denver supporting Barak Obama.  Will he be as the very possible future president as willing to continue the never ending warfare, we of our generation have lived
with for almost all of our lifetimes.  Don't know. Just asking. But one reminder is relevant
today.  We vote and have taught those boomers to follow our lead.

OT, maybe? Maybe not. Food for thought.  Cryptomaniac, shall I send Tums or Maalox ?

Outside of the cash advances, I'm perfectly fine with keeping the military-industrial complex running at full-speed ahead.  There is a lot to be said about keeping our military not only strong, but overwhelmingly strong.  You do not want to live in a world where we are a second-rate military power.  The oceans that have historically kept us safe from invading armies are getting smaller and potential adversaries are developing weapon systems that can kill many hundreds or thousands in the blink of an eye (and I'm not speaking of nuclear weapons).  You do not want to see a day when the US Navy is outmatched by another nation or the US Air Force is powerless against an opposing Air Force. 

Also, the list of technology that we enjoy today that was born out of the military industrial complex is simply staggering.  There is no way that these advances would have made it to our homes at the speed they did if it weren't for massive military investment and the resources they put behind them for development.   I'll bet dollars-to-doughnuts that alternative fuels, better batteries, hypersonic commercial air travel, quantum computing, regenerative medicine, and advanced materials will ALL be developed, optimized, and ultimately perfected by the military-industrial complex. 

An example near and dear to my heart - remember after Hurricane Katrina when one huge problem was that communications were down and cell phones didn't work and nobody could get help when they needed it?  Your military has invested resources to make sure that never happens again.  Infrastructureless communications are just around the corner.  They have huge benefits on the battlefield and could save countless lives in the future.  While still a few years away from being commercially available, the technical difficulties (too numerous to list) have been pretty much licked.  The military-industrial complex tends to stay at the bleeding-edge of technology and encourages innovation even when the risks would scare away other companies worried about a profit-margin.


I don't think Barak Obama is going to all of the sudden cut back on things like the US Missile Defense sheild.  It seems that when someone moves into the Presidency that they get a better idea of exactly how dangerous the world really is.  Once those briefings start coming, I imagine most are shocked by how perilous the situation actually is.


Sodium bicarbonate (aka baking soda) and water work just fine - no need to spend too much money on me!

25% of RTN's revenue come from outside the US (which is the highest of any US Defense manufacturer)...The Chinese do keep the company afloat...Thats actually laughable.  ITAR compliance wouldn't let a RTN product touch Chinese soil.  One can argue that some of our fed credit line comes from China but it also comes from the KSA who is a very large large purchaser of RTN products and services.

Your link's numbers are in the ball park of things, but there are quite a few that are 5-15% off.

I don't really understand the point you are trying to convey though in your last post....?

the issue always seemed to me plain. Money. It's a bit commonplace but it's old good lobbying stuff. Somehow a few folks in the Pentagon are more concerned about security of the Europeans than the Europeans themselves. Neither the governments nor the public in Europe have qualms about Iranian rockets. Most Europeans are surprised to even consider a possibility of Iranian strike on Europe.  It looks like -

USA: listen folks, u need some protection against Iran.

Folks: eh.., we're fine, thanks.

USA: no no no, you NEED that goddam shield against Iran. It's for your own sake.

Europeans: well,.. eh..., why would Iran attack us? Never really thought of that.

USA: who knows, why. Cos they're crazy, those mullahs. They're nuts. They will strike everyone, everyone. They enjoy hurting people, choking freedom, attacking democracies. Insane bastards. But don't worry, we'll take care of you. Uncle Sam is here to defend.

Euros: We're fine, really, don't bother. It's OK.

US: No no no no no! No! You’re NOT fine.You NEEED protection. You NEEEED missile defense. Fortunately we're here to help.

Euros: what if...

USA: Shut up! You don't know what the hell you're talking about! They are comming! Islamofascism Is coming! why is it always so hard to talk Euros into some nice tough stuff? You need the mthfking missile defense, got me?!

I agree with Peisithanatos,
It's about money to go in the pockets of friends of the Bush admin. How missiles based in Poland (and they were even afraid of ridicule to suggest Lithuania) could intercept Iranian missiles? This is as untrue as the Saddam's WMD's. Not the best location IMO. As for intercepting Russian missiles it's even more laughable. 10 ionterceptors will never be able to even remotely hinder a Russian nuclear assault.
Poland and Czechia like US money but they are not crazy and they also asked for improved air force, because Russia was more nervous.

If the US neocons want to waste money in Poland and Czechia, why not, but they need more aire force protection.

Now the deal are signed, but I doubt the missiles will be ready soon. If Obama is elected, it will take decades before the first brick of the US base is layed.
A lot of noise for nothing but embezzelment.

FYI its not just "Bush's" friends....the manufacturers of these missiles employ quite a few people....ironically the city where the missiles are manufactured didn't support Bush in 2004. Tucson, AZ (app. 1million people) voted for Kerry.

They can employ these poeple without building missiles in Poland.
This money is to be wasted anyway.

its not wasted IMHO...and those people don't work if the plant isn't producing.

It depends what you mean by "wasted".
The missile defense shield planned to be built in Poland is, IMO, a huge waste of money. The probability that Iran launches an ICBM with a nuclear warhead at Europe is realy realy small. Even if Iran develop or aquire the technology to build such ICBM, Iran will be bombed to the stone age before they start production.
Then even if Iran succeed in build them, and that the missile shield works, Iran will still have plenty of targets against the West which won't be under the umbrella range.
Notably, the target #1, Israel won't be covered.

What Bush want to create is a "We can and we do build anti missile shields" to maintain the impression of US militaro-technologic superiority. While in fact, it has not much real use to such installation.

Now if it's to develop and experiment new technologies, it's not a waste. My point is that you don't need to do it in Poland and create diplomatic problems to do that.

Its all about point of reference...you aren't a US citizen working in the defense sector.  You aren't a Polish supplier included in the agreed offsets...you aren't a Polish citizen who just became a little more uncomfortable after the Russian-Georgian war.

Fred, i thought your intellectual development level allowed you to understand that American defense system in Eastern Europe never intended to be against Iranian attack of Europe.

If Israel will be attacked by Iran with nuclear warhead this means Arabs will eat the same attack because anywhere you hit Israel you hit at least one Arab country with it. Iran won't exist after such attack. It will be bombarded by all Israeli cannons and then by NATO's as check fire. Probably then NATO will gain control over oil structures.

how about US citizens working in the dildo-production sector (OK, all the dildoes come from People's Republic)? Its THEM who pay to the defense sector. Its not the Polish and Hungarian taxpayers who'll pay for the stuff. It will be you, buddy. The thing is, to your arms industry people, American taxpayers dollars are as fine as that of the Polish taxpayers dollars. The USA doesn't earn a dime on the thing; the money changes hands within the US flying from your pocket to the pocket of the arms industry folks. Don't try to present the Missile Defense project as a lucrative deal for the US. The one who pays for it is you, not the Poles.


uncomfortable hardly. Few see the Georgia war as an omen to Poland. And then, if a Pole were to perceive a military threat from Russia, the missile deal is the most extravagant way to respond to it. In the prospect of a Russo-Polish war, that deal changes nothing.

Poles (the population) and other east europeans are against the missile shield project precisely because they know it stirrs up tension with Russia.
Poland is a very corrupt country and if the american poured a few dollars in the Twin-President pockets (the Kacinski brothers) they get the deal.

As I said Ahk, american defense industry employees can keep their job and work on another project or be transfered to the Nasa's Jet Propulsion Lab.
And polish contractors and corrupt politicians can get US tax-payer money for other services than this one.

It's about time the US politicians get rid of the cold war mindset. And if McCain is elected, you will be stuck in 60's for another 4 years. It's time that Condy  goes retired too.

considering NASA is a non profit org that might be a difficult.

Also:

"According to the new poll, 58 percent of those surveyed support the missile defense plan — compared with 30 percent in March 2007, early on in the negotiations. The poll was published in the Rzeczpospolita daily."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26269478/

Looks like the Russian incursion into Georgia has some ramifications.

Yes, maybe.
But it will be unusable against a Russian attack. I don't think there will be a war with Russia in the nex 50~100 years anyway.

This georgian war has had a psychological effect. Nothing rational.