IAP Political Forum

Missing from tonight's formal introduction of Sarah Palin to the American people was one extremely important detail: her wacko religious beliefs. Oh, you didn't hear about her nutjob religious beliefs? Well, you are definitely going to want to hear the spiritual leanings of the woman who will be one heartbeat away from the presidency:

Just 2 months ago, as reported by the Huffington Post, speaking before her Pentecostal church, Palin painted the current war in Iraq as a messianic affair in which the United States could act out the Will of thy Lord:

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending U.S. soldiers out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

-Sarah Palin, June 2008

God's Will, however, was not strictly a thread in Palin's foreign policy. It was also part of her energy proposals as well. Just prior to discussing Iraq, Alaska's governor asked the audience to pray for another matter -- a $30 billion national gas pipeline project that she wanted built in the state: "I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built, so pray for that," she said.

Frightened yet? Oh wait, it gets better. Much better. This is the church in which Palin was baptized at age 12 and at which she has attended her entire adult life. If you think the comments Sarah Palin provided at her church are outrageous, wait until you hear her Church Pastor's comments, Ed Kalnins. Pastor Kalnins has preached that critics of President Bush will all be banished to hell, questioned whether people who voted for Sen. John Kerry in 2004 would be accepted to heaven, charged that the 9/11 terrorist attacks and war in Iraq were part of a war "contending for your faith", and said that Jesus "operates from the position of war mode."

Wait, there's more. Her Church has asserted that Palin's election as governor was the result of a "prophetic call" by another pastor at the church who prayed for her victory who made "a prophetic declaration". And Palin's response to her Divine Selection to the governor's mansion by God Himself? Well, see for yourself....

"He was praying over me," she said in June. "He's praying, 'Lord make a way, Lord make a way...' And I'm thinking, this guy's really bold, he doesn't even know what I'm gonna do, he doesn't know what my plans are, and he's praying not, 'Oh Lord, if it be your will may she become governor,' or whatever. No, he just prayed for it. He said, 'Lord, make a way, and let her do this next step.' And that's exactly what happened. So, again, very very powerful things coming from this church."

In his sermons, Pastor Kalnins has also expressed beliefs that well outside mainstream Christian thought. He preaches repeatedly about the "end times" and the "last days". During his appearance with Palin in June 2008, he declared, "I believe Alaska is one of the refuge states in the last days, and hundreds of thousands of people are going to come to the state to seek refuge and the church has to be ready to minister to them."

He also claims to have received direct "words of knowledge" from God, providing him information about past events in other people's lives. During one sermon, he described being paired with a complete stranger during a golf outing. "I said, I'm a minister from Alaska and I want you to know that your wife left you -- you know that your wife left you and that the Lord is gonna defend you in a very short time, and it wasn't your fault.


Can anybody say "Cookoo! Cookoo!". And this crazy woman might be inline right behind an elderly man with skin cancer for the Executive Office of the United State of America. If that isn't a little disturbing, I don't know what is. Holy Smokes, haven't we all had enough of Republican Politicians taking us into Wars because they think these wars are God's Will? Haven't we all had enough of a President who think they're talking to God, have been Divinely picked by God, and wish to start wars they think God is telling them to start?

meh, more pandering to the religious right....She doesn't strike me as a religious nutbag.  I've met people like that in person and she doesn't fit that bill IMO

so umm does that mean that rev wright matters now?

We have been told he does not matter....

Ostracized the state of Alaska....now ostracizing those of faith....PLEASE keep it up!

It is sure to be a winning strategy!

As a person of faith Patton, do you believe people who vote democrat don't get into heaven?

If not then what's the problem?


Ahk

After Palin was elected mayor of a tiny town, she went to the library and demanded that certain books be banned. The librarian refused.
Palin fired the librarian.
After an uproar from the town, she reinstated the librarian. [source: Globe and Mail, Sept 3, page A12]

Great, a book banner.

If there's one thing this country needs, it's more ignorance.

I have been a member of IAP for a long time and I can say unequivocally you are hands down the very most ignorant member here, Republican or Democrat. Your participation in this forum reduces its value as a whole - without question. 

The fact Obama has never made strange religious suggestions himself and has denounced his FORMER pastor is a little different than Sarah Palin HERSELF saying she was choosen by God, that the Iraq War is a mission from God, and SUPPORTING her CURRENT pastor's comments that non-Republicans are all going to hell.

You honestly can't see the difference.

Much like your Republican role models, you don't actually talk answer the questions directly posed to you. Do you? I mean, when do you actually respond to the substance of a post? Ever?

Again, like your Republican heros, I think you like to ignore substance and change the subject to a personal attack. Granted, it works well when you are a Republican politician trying to distract people from the fact that Republicans have ran the country and the economy  squarely into the ground over the last several years, but when you are an average person in regular life you just end up looking like an idiot.

As someone already asked you, so are you saying you agree with Palin that Iraq is a mission from God and Democrats are going to hell?

Let me give an example of what Ryan is referring to. Last night, Palin went into a little detail about energy independence. One problem:

"Nothing she said made any sense at all. The amount of new oil we can drill in the United States is tiny, not large. Nothing we do on that front will have the slightest impact on either foreign producers or the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. Iran doesn't control a fifth of the world's energy supply. And clean coal doesn't exist. It was just a farrago of nonsense from beginning to end."
--Kevin Drum

See what I mean? When it comes to mocking sarcasm, the GOP is top-notch. First-rate. But actual policy discussions? Gibberish.

Of course not.

I did however miss where Governer Palin said Democrats are going to hell though.

Perhaps a little drama injected into the the conversation?

Aww did I hurt the little babies feelings???

Just like Muslim moderates have to speak up against Muslim extremism, if there are things said, alarm bells if you will, by people you are going to give power to then it is incumbent on the more reasoned 'people of faith' to have the guts and the faith to stand up and say, without a doubt, that, "No. If you are a democrat that does NOT mean you won't get into Heaven.".


Seriously those kind of statements are one step away from the "God Hates America" cult. Quit telling people what "God wants". it's the biggest sin of vanity there is. You don't know what God wants.


Reasonable people of faith need to shit or get off the crapper. With all the BS talk (and you know it's BS) about "God's Mission for America in Iraq" and other stuff that comes dangerously close to "God chose me to lead", they have to decide once and for all whether or not they want America to be America or if they want America to be Iran, because that's where the religious far right is headed.


Ahk

Very well said. **applause**


Amen to that! (no pun intended)


Absoutely! Individuals in Palin's party are constantly whinning and complaining about how Muslim leaders will not stand up and reject terrorism yet are notably mum when it comes to radical Christian leaders claiming to speak on behalf on God in that God's wishes are for us to be in Iraq, for George Bush to be President, and for all Democrats and non-supporters of this war and of Republicans to go to hell.

The whole convention besides Huckabees speech just seemed like a bunch of Republican talking points and stuff we've heard over the last 8 years from Bush. Axis of evil, muslims are evil, drill baby drill, and they will raise your taxes. I almost fell asleep.

I agree Ahk....if someone you've watched for 20 years or so and has baptized your children and whom you call a spiritual advisor makes claims like "No. No. No. Not 'God Bless America,' 'God damn America." or “They will not only attack you if you try to point out what’s happening in white America. U.S. of KKK A.” or "We started the AIDS virus. ... We are only able to maintain our level of living by making sure that Third World people live in grinding poverty.”....you should stand up and condemn the comments....

Can I get an Amen, brotha?

AMEN!! I see the light!

Patton - obama has condemned Rev. Wright's comments, on many different occassions.

Yes absolutely. Amen

However why isn't this brought up unless it's about a democrat? This was a big Rep talking point a few weeks back, their silence on Palin now only reinforces the lefty talking point that anyone Republican and religious is a nutter, or someone who secretly believes that stuff to be true but doesn't want to admit it. Obama distanced himself. Palin says nothing about it which seems to endorse it. Is it just that they don't want to alienate that voting base? Obama didn't seem to mind if he lost his pastors vote.




Ahk

AFTER he became a liability.

Some spine  ::)

The Messiah distanced himself ONLY after it seemed to gain traction....and now you guys give him a pass for doing so.

How many weeks/months did that all transpire?

If this gains traction against Palin.....she may distance herself....as a saavy politician has already demonstrated is Okie-Dokie

But....she's in her SECOND week on-scene.

But somehow....I believe if or when she does this....the opposition will fail to see the hypocrisy in giving Obama a pass...unless they believe he's NOT really a Christian......and that standards for a spiritual advisor and Pastor are different.

Actually, if you believe in abortion which is taking the life of a newborn to most people who believe in god death means hell.  So yep to them in their church it means this democrats are going to hell.  Whereas Rev Wright thinks that if is white you is going to hell.  

There is a big difference.

I am glad I don't have a religion and prefer to believe more in the Toltec way of life :)  I will always believe religion will be the end of this world.  Its a self dictating prophecy that the world must end and the different religions have been trying to find a way to make it happen.

BTW Obama did not lose wrights vote, as Wright is still stumping for Obama his "boy"

I never said he had spine. I said he distanced himself.

Who knows - maybe he's being a hypocrite; maybe he's lying; but in no uncertain terms he laid out what exactly he thinks about that in terms of what it is to him as a potential political policy. His comments never once gave anyone the idea he was thinking taking any of that to the Whitehouse. Why is Palin, and many many other Republicans contenders/politicians, content to let it pass when someone says "God chose them to lead us"?

Is this what you want? A leader who is "chosen by God" or if questioned is tantimount to questionming God? I don't believe Bush really believes that but I believe he let stuff like that pass so it wouldn't alienate that voter base. Did he make suckers of them? Because I don't see what he did once he got into the Whitehouse to curb abortion or bring the story of creationism into high Schools etc etc. That's what they wanted and he was all too willing to be their man.


not exactly. The Reps dug and dug and dug then found that and made an issue of it just as the Dems are making an issue out of this. He made his intentions clear while the Republicans are happy to whistle along hoping no one notices they aren't going to deny the REAL claims of Messiah-hood.
Ahk

LOL! No there isn't. It is still being led by a democracy and by people or being led by someone 'appointed' by God. Either way its one step closer to Iran.



Ahk

Yeah yeah yeah. "Messiah". Keep plugging that old one. Are you one of those people Patton that says, "To hell with the issues, I'm just going to keep pushing this "Messiah" line until people fall for it"? It's the Republicans that laid the snide "Messiah" crap...mostly because they can't seem to bring him down unless the hoist him way up first.

I would give Palin or Bush a pass on this issue too if they had the guts to stand up and either confirm or deny their own little notions of "Messiah-dom".



Ahk

The important distinction that seems to be getting lost here is that Barack Obama himself never made any questionable religious comments or gave any controversial religious speeches himself. It was solely his Pastor.

With Palin, it is quite different. She herself has said the God wants us to be at war in Iraq and that the war is "God's Plan". Palin herself has said that she was "choosen by God" to be governor of Alaska. This is, in addition to, the crazy comments being made by her churches Pastor. And Palin, unlike Obama, has not renounced the comments made by her Pastor at her church.

Furthermore, Palin's "mission from God" statement and her statement about being Divinely selected by God Himself were not made 20 years ago something. These were comments made this summer a couple of months ago.   

People that belioegve in god believe everything they do is gods will.  In their mind its what god wants for them so god chose her to be governer.  the same is true of Obama if he believes in a god and the fact chose choses our path, and he has said before.. "you will have an epiphany"....

How hard is that to understand.

I dont belive in a god persay so my will is my own.  I chose my path and it is not dictated by anyone but me.

Simple things that those with no faith will ever understand.

Just as I cannot explain complex medical literature with people who have zero understanding of all the complex interactions within the realm of human physiology and pathophysiology....I cannot explain spiritual issues with those without faith.

If you all want to ostracize and denigrate those of faith....enjoy the ride.

I have on many occasions believed the direction of my life, the situations I have found myself in were all Gods doing...in other words "part of His plan"...a believer in the word of God will also believe that as fortold in Revelations ....this world will fall...and the events leading up to that will be horrific.

I have prayed with soldiers on my many deployments for protection and His will be done.

So....go ahead...denigrate...ostracize....spit upon and alienate those who believe in God (roughly 85% of the electorate).....and whatever may be in "Gods plan"....

Don't condesend to me just because you don't like the implications of things that preacher/Palin said. I think I understand it a lot better than you're willing to admit. Now that you feel backed into a corner you're going to go with this "God's plan" thing.


Don't play victim or stupid Patton.

All throughout history are those who said "I lead because God wills it" and you would be right there to scoff, denigrate and spit on them so don't play victim now. No one is denigrating you. They are understandable concerns. What about people who are 'not of faith'? Should they just leave the country? Get back down to earth will ya? That's what the whole seperation of church and state is for. Protects the state from the church and the church from the state.


You're doing the same thing the conspiricy theorists do. You are claiming something and then claiming that since 85% of the people 'believe in God' that they believe as you do. They don't. 85% of the US does not believe it's God's plan for America to be in Iraq so lets stick with the issue.

That and faith are not at issue here as much as you would like to make it so. What is at issue here is do you want to run your country as with a seperation of church and state or do you want to run the country as a Christian version of Iran?


This is a load of BS and you know it too. If you don't want to be 'denigrated' then stop actiing stupid. Revelations, huh? So how many times in the past 2000 years did it appear as though the world was going to come to an end and didn't? Never mind that, you have 'faith' don't you? Is that the same kind of faith that tells the world Iran has no homosexuals?

There's a point where 'faith' crosses the line and becomes lying to yourself and expecting everyone else to go along with it. Just because I don't fall for it does not actually mean I cannot comprehend 'faith' as much as you wish. but go ahead and keep telling yourself that -- I mean keep having 'faith' in that.

Bottom line Patton: do you want your country run by a series of religious leaders -- with no voting because after all voting for the wrong party will end you up in Hell so no one votes any longer.


"Revelations". lol. I don't know what's eating you these days but you're nuts if you thought that was going to fly. You guys said it was revelations back in the '50s too. And 100 years before that. And a hundred years before that.
Ahk

I'm sorry you feel you were spoken to in a condescending manner....in order to not make the same mistake again perhaps you can tell me how you pray, what you pray for, what you use prayer for....do the circumstances of your prayers change when you pray for others?

Me backed in a corner?   Cute.

Is it a stretch of the imagination that a believer would think EVERYTHING is a part of Gods plan?

I guess it would depend on the level of fundamentalism of the individual.


Do you believe ANYONE throughout history has ever led because of Gods will?

The answer to this will be telling for further discussions on the matter.


No...they should do what they've always done when a believer in God has led them....which has happened how many times in our history.......hmmm?

Seems everyones still here when Bush says God has told him what to.........


No....but 85% understand prayer...what it's for...and the different types...and the different situations...different audiences one is in while praying...and whether the are leading, inspiring or comforting.


I don't know....I wasn't there....but when the events of the last 2000 years are taken in context...it can be argued from a spiritual standpoint that things are in fact getting worse on a series of levels...

Of course for a non-believer...it may appear to be getting better.


And of course...you know where that line lies for each man.


Why am I not surprised you find this all entertaining?

Perhaps all my discussions with Barney have given me a little insight.....there are no depths to which some will go to mock faith.

I do see this as fairly analogous to the Wright issue. Patton is right, people should object or just leave when nonsense like this is being spouted from the pulpit. I don't really see either case as that big of a deal though. It certainly doesn't raise my opinion of either of them, but it's not really a big issue to me.

It can be an indication of the influences on the candidate, but IMO, demanding that people own or disown statements made by someone else has reached a level of true absurdity in this country.

Whatever Patton. You're straight up lying to me.

Don't dismiss the point as though I simply find it entertaining. Answer it. Or are you under the impression having faith is another way of saying you don't have to take responsibility? Why are we living in "Revelations" today and not 100 years ago or during the cold war? because you're here now and so it makes more sense?

Because you say so? Because you believe it and stamp Gods face on that so now you don't have to rationalize it because now it's not what you believe, it's what God believes?


Of course you're talking about the Republican religious right here right? They are the ones demanding their religion be taught in schools and not anyone else's.


Unless that's another Democrat president right? Or in truer words unless it's not what you think it is.



You dance around a simple point. My the gymnastics you must go through to not answer. You and the religious right you defend with your silence have and will scoff and laugh at people in history and today who claim it is Gods will that they be leader and that they are carrying out Gods will. You can see the problem easily when it's other people/nations and other Gods but all of a sudden it's completely reasonable when it's your God and you're Party. You don't want to face that so you hand me the sentence of crap above.


Again you do not match the answer with the question. In fact it's nonsense.

 I'll spell it out again: what about people who are not religious? They should just leave the country? They should not vote? Maybe they should just die? Maybe they don't matter because they're not praying to your religion?

Why not just drop this pretend act of yours like you're patriotic and just hand your country over to the people you know full well are wackos and burn your constitution at the same time.?


Yeah but that's not what we're talking about is it Patton and you know it. Why are you playing games?  We were talking about promoting the idea that you or anyone else knows what God plan is and why it is false and wrong to sit there and say vote democrat and you wont go to heaven or that Bush thinks it' Gods plan to go to Iraq and if you're against that then yuo're against God and if you're against Bush you're against God.

THAT's what we were talking about Patton not "prayer", and you tried to imply 85% of the people think that way.



There's that condisending bullshit again. ""I'm a person of faith so I know, and I don't need to be reasonable and I don't need to think and I don't have to prove or justify anything, and since you're a non-believer you'll never know..."


Whaa-whaa. I haven't mocked your faith once you crybaby. I'm speaking to you as one man to another and you just can't seem to cut it. Deal.

Whatever Patton. You're a lying condisending shit and im done with you. Go ahead and tear your country apart with your midieval bullshit. Suits me fine.



lol. You win.
Ahk

 

LOL! Good luck with that! You do realize you are talking to Patton right? He's not going to answer you because he can't. He can't because he is incapable of it. Instead he will dodge, duck, evade, and ask you to find sources and evidence to support the claims he makes.

Pastor Kalnins has preached that critics of President Bush will all be banished to hell, questioned whether people who voted for Sen. John Kerry in 2004 would be accepted to heaven.


WWJD?




As I understand things, this is the core tenet of the Christian faith.

A suggestion that entrance into heaven is achieved through one's action (in this case one's vote) is contradictory to this teaching, IMO.

So, per Ryan's initial post, Sarah Palin, in her own words, said:

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending U.S. soldiers out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

And this about her pastor:

"He was praying over me," she said in June. "He's praying, 'Lord make a way, Lord make a way...' And I'm thinking, this guy's really bold, he doesn't even know what I'm gonna do, he doesn't know what my plans are, and he's praying not, 'Oh Lord, if it be your will may she become governor,' or whatever. No, he just prayed for it. He said, 'Lord, make a way, and let her do this next step.' And that's exactly what happened. So, again, very very powerful things coming from this church."

I think this is highly pertinent and should be discussed at every dinner table in America that has members planning to vote. I would hope that at every table, they ask some tough questions. Hmm, maybe like:

1) Is there a supernatural diety?
2) If so, does he/she/it personally intervene in human affairs?
3) If so, does he/she/it favor America over all the other nations he/she/it created?
4) If so, is letting America be attacked by terrorists, then inspiring America's leaders to respond to the attack by invading a nation that had next to nothing to do with the attack while diverting attention from the real perpetrators, the best solution he/she/it could have come up with?

If so, then I really wouldn't be surprised if he/she/it supports Sarah Palin.

I'm so disappointed. I really wanted to read responses to the questions I posed immediately above. Patton? Neue?

No thoughts at all?

I'll do what I can for you jpn.  Here are my opinions only:

1)  yes
2)  yes
3)  I wouldn't know who He favors
4)  I have no way of knowing if He had anything to do with the plan

Let me play devils advocate here.  Has it occurred to anyone that Sara Palin was being humble and giving the glory to God in regards to her becoming the Governor?  Alot of people do that.  Ever see any football games when a guy makes a touchdown and points to the clouds in thanks to God?  It happens all the time.  They tell you they did it with God's help.  They believe that God is in every part of their life.  As for the soldiers prayer that Palin talked about.  Again, believers pray that we humans make the right choices and we pray that it's God's will.  I don't agree or disagree with what's coming out of that church because I don't know enough about it but the stomping on religion is pretty thin especially when most of our leaders have claimed to be believers.  We all know that separation of church and state is still in place.  And for good reason.   

This would be a first for any discussion ever held here when philosophy and religion is discussed between believers and non-believers.

These usually end in one person screaming "lying condisending shit" or accusing one of intellectual  "gymnastics"  reading a respose as a "sentence of crap" and taking their toys home because they fail to convince or understand.
Does Revelation have a "start date?"

Why do not ALL the events since the crucifixion of Christ "count" as events leading up to the Apocolypse?

Especially when dealing with an eternal God?
When have you ever read where I've determined what God's plan is?
It wasn't a "sentence of crap, it was a question that required a "yes or no" answer....not a paragraph of avoidance.

Just as my answer above regarding a Democrat President demonstrates by inability to speak on behalf of Gods plan or will....it is the same with regards to other nations.

I believe the answer to these questions will be revealed in the end....and that will most certainly be long after we are all gone.
There is nothing "nonsensical" in saying that those who are not religious do what they've always done.

Have they left the country before?

Have they not voted before?

Should they die?......Oh a dramaqueen now?.....we ALL die.

They all matter....non-believers come to God everyday.

Anyone who declares with any amount of certainty that they know what Gods plan is is in error.

People can however pray with the belief that ALL that happens is Gods will, and for what they hope to be true....to lead those in belief....inspire those in belief.....and to comfort those in belief.

It's only "condescending bullshit" if you think it can be proven to you.

If the only way I can communicate with you is by speaking Mandarin, am I being "condescending?"

There is a spiritual language that those of faith speak in order to understand what God is and does in their life...a language that comes with surrender and salvation....I try to speak to you in this language....but you do not speak it.....so we have nothing but frustration and miscommunication.

I'm sorry....I don't speak this language....what are you trying to say?

If Democrats want to take this tact and adopt it as their own....politically it benefits Republicans because it is.....condescending and insulting to those of faith....and alienates those independents on the fence.

As a resident of Earth and member of mankind....it just makes me sad.


Well said Crystal.....you and I speak the same language.

Yeah yeah yeah whatever Patton. I didn't read a word of that.

I don't listen to religious fanatics and I don't debate people who cop out anytime the questions get remotely tough. Like I say, good luck with your Christian Iran. Just join the Phelps clan and be done with it. You and the Islamic fanatics/terrorists have a hell of a lot in common.

Wow.....alot of passion for someone who doesn't read a well intentioned, time consuming and conciliatory response.

I hope you are able to find more constructive uses for all that negative energy.

Yep. The same 'passion' I have for any religious extremist. It's a simple 2 step process. You elect a leader you figure (mostly because he simply says so) is doing 'God's' will ...
God's will = Leaders will.
Leader's will = Gods will.
Leader = God.

This is why you don't do that. Call it resisting the temptation. This is why the separation of church and state. For the mutual protection of both.

I'm sure my time is being used just as constructively as yours. If you wanted me to read you now that you're going to be all well intentioned and conciliatory, then you shouldn't have been all BSing and condescending before.
Ahk

No sense of the ironic at all, eh? Yeah, I'm sure that he/she/it was behind America's idiotic, irrational, and counter-productive response to 9/11. I'm sure it was the best the he/she/it could come up with. (Do you really believe your deity has a gender? Don't you think assigning such banal human traits as gender to it diminishes your diety?)

As for your reassurance regarding the separation of church and state, do you really think it would hold up to the right-wingnut onslaught if we let our guard down for an instant? They are forever doing their best to whittle it away. They got "In God We Trust" put on our money. They got "under God" inserted into the pledge of allegiance. They (this includes Sarah Palin, by the way) want to teach their religion in our High School science classes. They want policies enacted that are driven soley by their religious fanatisicm rather than any proof that the policies work, and despite lots of evidience that they don't. Examples: sex education in schools, distribution of condoms. Some think believe that worrying about the environment is pointless because "The End Days" are just arround the corner anyway. My wife works in an ROTC office on a college campus. The Army Lieutenant Colonel who's in charge honestly believes that the world was created 10,000 years ago. From a strictly rational point of view, do you think this informs or obscures his judgment when he votes? And yet any politician who would openly ridicule such ridiculous beliefs would be destroyed within the hour.

The separation of church and state is still in place, yes. Barely, and it is under constant assault.

Just as Dems don't all believe the exact same things and Reps don't believe the exact same things, so to, religious people do not believe the exact same things.  You can try to box us all up in one neat little package but that only serves to give yourself an excuse to assume you know how we ALL think and not look any further.  But this is true with most people on this site.  It's one of the things I find very frustrating when trying to talk about a particular issue.  Does it make me a wacko to believe in God?  No.  Does it make you a wacko to not believe?  No.  What about being a Dem or Rep?  When we choose which party to vote for, does it mean we go along with every thought and idea of the person we voted for?  No. 

I didn't choose to call God a he.  The bible does.  And since you don't believe, why should you care what we call Him? 

Your view on separation between church and state, or rather, what it says is that each state shall not establish a religion.  I mean, really, it has lasted the test of time and we have had almost every president claiming to be a believer in God.  Anyone who is serious about being an American (including those of faith) would fight to keep that in place.  Your religious phobia is a bit out of control.  ANY religion should not be taught in our public schools on any level but we see that some states (California, I think) allow other religions to be taught such as Islam.  It is wrong and should not be there.  Just as teaching our kids in grade school how to put a condom on a banana is wrong.  I'm not against sex education but could we at least wait until the kids are old enough to know that a condom is not a balloon?  And if a school will teach safe sex then they should also mention abstinence just to even the field and cover all the options.  It only seems right.  I hate that schools even have to teach our kids to have safe sex.  Parents should do that but since so many people are not interested in raising their own kids and want society at large to do it, it leaves schools little choice but to intervene in the effort of slowing down teen pregnancy.  Once again, my belief is that personal responsibility is a thing of the past.

While I certainly agree with the premise of your original point (confusing oneself with God when believing you have been Divinely selected to govern), I do think that on a strictly logical basis it is should be rephrased as follows....

God's will = Leader's will
Leader's will = God's will
Go against Leader = Go against God

And it is certainly not anything new. Divine selection is probably the earliest form of political tools employed to seize power and control the populace. It first emerged, widespread, under the feudal system in Europe - particularly England - with the "Divine Right of Kings". Refusing to pledge alligence to one's king was a crime punishable by death because it was an act viewed as akin to directly disobeying God since Kings ruled under the "Divine Right" of God (selected by, and operating in conjuntion with, God).

The human being is certainly an interesting creature. On one hand, it's amazing how much we have accomplished in certain areas in the last 500 years. On the other hand, it's equally amazing how little we have advanced in other areas.   

It's not so much a rephrase as the predictable next consequence. Or put another way, yeah I know.

Not a whacko. Just irrational and rational, respectively.


Ah yes, the Bible. The book that demands that believers stone adulterers to death and condemn those who touch pig flesh to eternal damnation. Some of its followers have evolved beyond those demands, why not others?

The whole discussion would instantly vanish if "His" followers would keep out of politics. But (and Sarah Palin is a great example of this) they don't.

I'd say that these two sentences are in conflict. Or maybe you aren't serious about being an American. Or maybe you don't think that teaching abstinence only in High School health classes, or refusing to distribute condoms to populations at risk of AIDs infection simply because of some ancient religious belief, has no serious social cost.

I thought it went without saying that many religious people have such attenuated beliefs that they really pose no problem to public policy, and that my concern was only with the more fanatical, fundamentalist types. Like Sarah Palin. But since you posed your questions, I did my best to answer them.

 She is a self discribed evangelical...I know enough about how these people process information and react to situations to be afraid of them if they are allowed to get power.

And what about Obama's beliefs?  He is also religious.  Does he scare you too? 

 I know Obama is pragmatic and realistic enough that he looks to his supernatural beliefs to only provide a compass to the morality of his decisions.
  An evengelical leader may have their best friend Jeeeeezus whisper something in their ear about the "end of days" and we are all screwed.
 To answer your question there is nothing about Obama that scares me. When he is elected I will sleep well.

The same coulkd easily be said of environment wackos like Gore has CLAIMED to become.

Oh, I'm sorry.  I didn't know you had a personal relationship with Obama.  How psychic of you to know how he will handle situations that come up.  You talk out of both sides of your mouth.  It's ok for Obama because you claim (and have no way of knowing) that he uses his supernatural beliefs (religion) to only provide a compass to the morality of his decisions.  Ummmm, that means he uses religion to help him make choices?  And then you use your psychic abilities to say that Sarah (who would only be the VP) would screw us all if Jesus talked in her ear.  You are ridiculous and so transparent, it's funny.  I get it, you want Obama.  No problem.  You don't use honesty, you just spew crap to further your cause.

 Not Psychic abilities, but abilities of observation. I have listened to Obama speak about his religion. He is a rational man with good perspectives on what is important. There is nothing couched in my desire to see Obama lead this nation so the transparency of my intentions should not be a Revelation to anyone. In that, I am honest.
 I won't get into McCains odds of living out his term here, but lets say his choice of VP is a little more important than most. Evangelicals go well beyond what I consider to be rational thought, and rational thought is a prerequisite to be a political leader IMHO.

I don't think religious people are necessarily irrational. They can be, but so can athiests. The thought of having the country led by someone of faith does not bother me in the slightest (good thing too, cause I'd be pretty bothered all the time). It's not so much whether Jesus is whispering in their ear or guiding their moral compass, but what he's telling them and which way he's spinning the needle.

Religious people certainly should have their say, but in no case should policy be based on religion. More than the actual policy propositions that I don't like, what bothers me about religion in politics is a giant voting block that can be swayed by by the appearance (or claim) of piety. I have little faith that the people we elect will prove themselves to walk the walk of the values the claim to possess. Moreover it's a waste of my time to try and keep tabs on everyone's personal dealings, so I don't vote based on who professes the most pious values.

Proclaiming *God* to be on your side, or to be doing *God*'s work, or that *God* chose for you to lead is arrogant. This is not a characteristic of faith, but of megalomania. Think back to Lincoln's attitudes toward the will of the almighty.


From: "If Slavery Is Not Wrong, Nothing Is Wrong", Letter (4 April 1864) to Albert G. Hodges (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Lincoln)

Here is a rational, humble example of a leader commenting on the will of a higher power in current events.

I find bold proclamations of knowledge of and submission to the will of the divine much less convincing when they are not accompanied by a measure of humility.

First and foremost, Sarah Palin is a Pentecostal Evangelical Christian who has attended the same Assembly of God church since age 12. and Barack Obama is a non-denominational Christian. If you know the difference between the two, you know the difference is not small. Pentecostal Christianity is way outside even mainstream Evangelical Christianity- let alone Non-Denominational Christianity (prayer healing, speaking-in-tongues, belief we are in the "end days" and active preparation for Armageddon, literal fundamentalist interpretation of the bible, etc.) 

Sarah Palin is certainly entitled to her beliefs, but it is a fact that these beliefs are well outside the religious beliefs of most Americans and unfortunately both she and the Church she attends actively, frequently, and very deeply intermingle politics with their religion. Sarah Palin in on record asking Alaskan residents to pray for a multi-billion dollar Alaskan pipeline that she felt was "God's Will" in addition to many other statements that would be considered alarming to most Americans.

So while both Palin and Obama are Christians, there is justification to be more concerned about the influence of Palin's religion than Obama's. 

I don't see that we can divide the difference between Obama's and Palin's religion based on guessing and assumptions. 

What I'm trying to do here is get to some honesty without standing firmly in either political arena and blindly giving a pass to whichever one we happen to vote for.  The church Obama attended for many many years had some wild, hate mongering things coming out of it.  The church Sara Palin attends also has some wild, outlandish things to say.  It's hard to say one is better than the other and more "safe" because we don't know what the thinking of that person or church may be (as all churches are different even in the same denomination)  If there are radical statements from both churches, then at least admit it.  Don't try to excuse one while blowing the other one out of the water.  Sure, Obama renounced ties with his church (very recently) and Sara could possibly do the same thing.  It doesn't mean they don't still hold those beliefs.  None of us attended those churches (I don't think) so we can't say for sure that we know what they are doing.  Nor do we live in the minds of Obama or Palin.  Politicians say anything to get elected (both sides)

I don't feel the need to blindly back up my choice in who to vote for when they are doing something I don't agree with.  I have no problem saying they don't believe what I believe on every issue.  When they screw up, I can say so without feeling that I am betraying anyone.  I would ask that on IAP, we could all talk honestly and openly without feeling the need to "cover up" for our political pals or make excuses for them.  Each and every one of the candidates (presidential and VP) have short comings and I wonder why we all sit here and try to make them out to be the greatest things on earth.  I joined this site so I could learn some things, talk about the different views and issues and see if I may have some areas that I need to re-think.  I find this hard to do when so many people have blinders on.

 

You are not listening to me. I am not talking about the "wild outlandish" religious beliefs coming out of Sarah Palin's church. I am talking about the "wild outlandish" religious beliefs coming out of Sarah Palin's mouth.

I would not care about Palin's church if Palin - as Obama - never herself espoused any real radical beliefs and - as Obama - denounced the radical "non-Republicans are going to hell" preachings coming out of her Church. After all, I don't agree with everything my Church teaches either. But the fact is she hasn't denounced these radical, scary, divisive teachings and she herself made personal comments and statements very much in line with these radical beliefs.     




 

OK...so you don't care what her church says?

It's about what SHE says?

Of this very long thread....I wish this would have been more clear....the posting of all the stuff from the Pastor may have confused the issue a bit.

So....this is what you posted about what SHE said:

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending U.S. soldiers out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

-Sarah Palin, June 2008

It appears to be a prayer of leadership....one a Governer may make before a congregation that may have National Guard soldiers, family of soldiers or friends of soldiers....she is in the Alaskan National Guard chain-of-command.

The audience is most likely Christian (you give no hint where this prayer was made)....so this type of prayer among followers should surprise no one.....

And Palin's response to her Divine Selection to the governor's mansion by God Himself? Well, see for yourself....

"He was praying over me," she said in June. "He's praying, 'Lord make a way, Lord make a way...' And I'm thinking, this guy's really bold, he doesn't even know what I'm gonna do, he doesn't know what my plans are, and he's praying not, 'Oh Lord, if it be your will may she become governor,' or whatever. No, he just prayed for it. He said, 'Lord, make a way, and let her do this next step.' And that's exactly what happened. So, again, very very powerful things coming from this church."

She's basically referring to someone elses intercessionary prayer here......reflecting the hope the Pastor has for her.

Don't know how this makes her "cuckoo"

If you have more things SHE has said.....not her Pastor (since you don't think it important and it does get rid of the little Rev Wright issue Obama has).....then lets look at it, OK?

In the quote you cite, I was specifically talking about the fact that Palin has personally espoused religious beliefs considered radical by some as oppossed to Obama who has not personally espoused religious beliefs considered radical by some.

In that particular comment you quote, that is what I referring to. Elsewhere in the post I addressed the religious beliefs espoused by Palin's church and demonstrated the significant difference between Obama & Palin in this matter: namely that Obama promptly denounced his former Pastor's comments and clearly indicated he does not share these beliefs and Palin has not.



Spin it however you like, but suggesting the War in Iraq is a "task from God" and part of "God's Plan" or otherwise suggesting God has any favor, intention, design, or plan for war (in Iraq or anywhere else in the world) surprises plenty of people - Christians and Non-Christians alike.

And I couldn't help but notice how you convienently omitted Palin's call for prayer on the $80 million oil pipeline for Alaska which she also indicated was part of "God's Plan". What the matter, couldn't think of a way to spin away that one?




Well sorry, but it does. If you state a $80 million proposal to run an oil pipeline through the state of Alaska is something God wants to happen and instruct others to pray for the pipleine you are either cuckoo for believing that or cuckoo for expecting others to believe it. Either way, you're a nut.

No need for spin....I ignored it because I thought it irrelevant.

Praying for what you want to happen, and for others to do the same is one of the most common type prayers out there.....those who are actually familiar with prayer know that.

I forget who I'm talking to sometime.

My apologies.

I dont believe in god but I pray every Sat and Wednesday night... To win powerball...

I mean it cant hurt can it???

Just keep it spinning it, but you're going to keep getting caught everytime. Stating you want an oil pipeline and therefore requesting others who want it too to pray it gets approved is VASTLY different from stating said pipeline is part of a "God's Plan" and therefore you should pray for it.

Not to those IN church.

Yeah, I find people with blinders on to be really boring. For example, those who refuses to accept the proposition that a political candidate who espouses the belief that their personal deity is playing favorites (in her favor, of course), to be scary and probably not someone whose finger should be anywhere near the nuclear trigger. Not to mention nausiating. Or tries to equate that with a politician who has merely associated with someone who held different, but also objectionable opinions.

Remember when Huckabee was suggesting that he was benefitting from heavenly intervention after a few good showings in the primaries?

They never learn, though...

So you think Obama thinks god is not on his side?

I don't know how Obama views god, or if he thinks god personally intervenes in daily affairs of humanity, or if he even thinks that god is comprehensible to the human mind. But I know Obama's policies, which I agree with almost without exception.

I also know what Palin said that she believes, and I find it scary. Her beliefs could easily translate into very damaging public policies, especially in the fields of foreign policy, the environment, women's reproductive rights (her views are so extreme that even Cindy McCain was caught offguard by them) and what we teach our children.

Democrats are generally pretty much in lock step on the issues.

Case in point...who was the last pro-life Democrat you met?

Well we know how you and your MoveOn TYPES see this......changing a few of your words.....

I know how Palin views God, and how she thinks God personally intervenes in daily affairs of humanity, and how she even thinks that God is comprehensible to the human mind.  I know Palin's policies, which I agree with almost without exception.

I also know what Obama says he believes, and I find it scary. His beliefs could easily translate into very damaging public policies, especially in the fields of foreign policy, Iraq, energy policy, tax and spend, earmark pork and what we teach our children.

Your thought is easily translatable.

Thanks. ;)

 She believes that when the rapture comes Alaska will be saved as a refuge from the "end of days" .She believes that the Iraq war is a mission from god ( yes just like the Blues Brothers). She believes that "the gay " can be prayed away... Religious people are not necessarily irrational ...but then there are the Pentecostal evangelicals ...

she is a coo-coo of the first order.

Got the quote from the Pastor....but I missed hers.


We got her prayer:

Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending U.S. soldiers out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

Anything else?


I saw the church pamphlet:

‘‘You’ll be encouraged by the power of God’s love and His desire to transform the lives of those impacted by homosexuality,’’

But I again....missed HER quote.

Do you have it?

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
[http:]//www.bartleby.com/59/3/imitationist.html

You're welcome.