IAP Political Forum

Admittedly weak on the economy, but don't ask him, ask economists:

(http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3329/cus955sn0.gif)

He's got a horrible temper

the evidence (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAyK-enrF1g)
Partisan, but the testimony is 90% GOP

He's old, he's a warmonger, his VP pick is hilarious (this sums it up nicely (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1831461))

Fortunately, most americans see that there's no reason to vote for John McCain:

(http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/8587/elecvoteeo2.jpg)

(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/4558/538gi9.jpg)

Anyway, here's a game - anyone that comes up with a reason (a real reason for, not an 'Obama's a marxist/black panther/perv') I'll provide 5  reasons not to. Who wants to play?

CC How the hell R U?


good to see you back :)  Are you still in the UAE these days?  I was trying to contact you last fall....I'll have to PM you about it.

yes i am. i'll start a lobby thread i guess

Ill play the game.

McCain has more experience in politics then Obama. GO !

Thank you JFree89 and welcome to the game. You make a fine point. As a counterpoint to that, let's look at the total experience on both bills in a top political position.

Reason 1
John McCain has been a senator since 1986 (24th most senior senator)
Barack Obama has been a senator since 2004
Joe Biden has been a senator since 1972 and is the 6th most senior senator in the senate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seniority_in_the_United_States_Senate)
Sarah Palin has been a governor for 1 year and 9 months

So if the metric is simply length of time spent, the Obama/Biden ticket far exceeds the McCain/Palin ticket in terms of experience. We could go into specific experience in each role, and experience outside of those roles, but lets leave it there for Reason 1.

Reason 2
Age. McCain will be 72 years and 67 days old when (if) inaugurated. Statistically, that gives him less than a 1 in 3 chance of surviving two terms in office. This doesn't factor in things like his battle with potentially lethal skin cancer or the possibility of age related dementia or alzheimers, which brings me to...

Reason 3
Sarah Palin is laughably unqualified for the presidency. Serving on the Wasilla city coucil and 20 months as governor is one side of it, but it's more the massive gaps in her training and understanding that the Couric interviews demonstrated that prove it.

Reason 4
Was horribly misguided about Iraq, saying that the iraqis would greet the US as liberators (link (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/351896_jackson20.html)

Reason 5
His main advisor on the economy is Phil Gramm, who by authoring the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, undid protections put in place by the Glass-Steagall Act to prevent repetitions of the Great Depression. Many economists and lawmakers are pointing to this as key to the current economic crisis.

All good points .
One question about number 4, what was Obama's view on the invasion of Iraq in 2003/2004. I know the democrats supported it but did he ?

Obama wasn't in the Senate then, but he made his opinion quite clear.


THE REST (http://thegooddemocrat.wordpress.com/2007/02/06/barack-obamas-speech-on-iraq-2002/)

You have to admit... not bad for someone who hadn't even taken office yet.

Credit where credit is due. Too call that before the war started is gutsy and in the end its fairly accurate.

hmm, by the looks of this thread, even republicans agree: there is absolutely no reason to vote for john mccain

He's military accomplishments compared to Obama.

thank you jfree. he has had some considerable military accomplishments:

Reason 1
McCain graduated 494 out of 498 in his naval airforce class in Annapolis - if it weren't for his Admiral father and truly heroic grandfather, he would never have been allowed to fly - a point that would have spared the Navy millions of dollars, as mccain ended up crashing five airplanes. Since becoming a politician, John McCain has not had a single navy airman from his generation come out to publicly support him - virtually unheard of among the tight-knit military set.


Reason 2
How heroic was mccain in captivity in Vietnam? The answer is not very. He was labelled a 'songbird' by his Vietcong captors, and received  special medical treatment once they found out he was a military elite:


Reason 3
McCain's voting record for veterans stinks. Here's what McCain said:

As President, I will do everything in my power to ensure that those who serve today and those who have served in the past have access to the highest quality health, mental health and rehabilitative care in the world. The disgrace of Walter Reed must not be forgotten. … Whatever our commitments to veterans cost, we will keep them, as you have kept every commitment to us. The honor of a great nation is at stake.

Here's how he voted:

Not only has he refused to support the 21st Century GI Bill, which the Veterans of Foreign Wars endorsed last June, he has consistently voted against increasing funding for the Veterans’ Administration, which oversees all medical care for veterans:

    – Voted AGAINST an amendment providing $20 billion to the VA’s medical facilities.

    – Voted AGAINST providing $430 million to the VA for outpatient care “and treatment for veterans,” one of only 13 senators to do so.

    – Voted AGAINST increasing VA funding by $1.5 billion by closing corporate loopholes.

    – Voted AGAINST increasing VA funding by $1.8 billion by ending “abusive tax loopholes.”

Reason 4
McCain was against torture before he was for it. On 3 October 05, he introduced the McCain Detainee Amendment to the Defense Appropriations bill. The United States Senate voted 90-9 to pass the amendment, prohibiting inhumane treatment of prisoners, including prisoners at Gitmo, by limiting interrogation to methods detailed in the military's Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation. McCain then embraced the Military Commissions Act of October 2006, which vastly broadened the definitions of what constituted torture and stripped POWs of their habeus corpus rights.McCain's then voted against the Intelligence Authorization Act of 2008, which would have prevented the intelligence agencies from torturing 'threats'. McCain bizarrely stated during the debate that while he opposed torture, he wasn't going to hold the intelligence agencies to the same standards as the military.

Reason 5
McCain visits a Market in Baghdad, then lies on numerous occasions about it, and it leads to the death of 21 shopkeepers the following day:

21 dead: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1604931.ece
McCain: "There are neighborhoods in Baghdad where you and I could walk through those neighborhoods today." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/04/60minutes/main2648779.shtml
McCain: "General Petraeus goes out there [Iraq] almost everyday in an unarmored Humvee." http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0703/28/ywt.01.html
"I'm not say that they [VIPs] could go without protection. The president goes around America with protection. So I certainly didn't say that." http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0704/01/tww.01.html
Reporter: "[On 26 Mar] You said there are areas in Baghdad that you can walk around freely." McCain: "Yeah, I just came from one."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/01/AR2007040100325_pf.html

No reason

thank you jfree. he has had some considerable military accomplishments:

Reason 1
McCain graduated 494 out of 498 in his naval airforce class in Annapolis - if it weren't for his Admiral father and truly heroic grandfather, he would never have been allowed to fly - a point that would have spared the Navy millions of dollars, as mccain ended up crashing five airplanes. Since becoming a politician, John McCain has not had a single navy airman from his generation come out to publicly support him - virtually unheard of among the tight-knit military set.


Reason 2
How heroic was mccain in captivity in Vietnam? The answer is not very. He was labelled a 'songbird' by his Vietcong captors, and received  special medical treatment once they found out he was a military elite:


Reason 3
McCain's voting record for veterans stinks. Here's what McCain said:

As President, I will do everything in my power to ensure that those who serve today and those who have served in the past have access to the highest quality health, mental health and rehabilitative care in the world. The disgrace of Walter Reed must not be forgotten. … Whatever our commitments to veterans cost, we will keep them, as you have kept every commitment to us. The honor of a great nation is at stake.

Here's how he voted:

Not only has he refused to support the 21st Century GI Bill, which the Veterans of Foreign Wars endorsed last June, he has consistently voted against increasing funding for the Veterans’ Administration, which oversees all medical care for veterans:

    – Voted AGAINST an amendment providing $20 billion to the VA’s medical facilities.

    – Voted AGAINST providing $430 million to the VA for outpatient care “and treatment for veterans,” one of only 13 senators to do so.

    – Voted AGAINST increasing VA funding by $1.5 billion by closing corporate loopholes.

    – Voted AGAINST increasing VA funding by $1.8 billion by ending “abusive tax loopholes.”

Reason 4
McCain was against torture before he was for it. On 3 October 05, he introduced the McCain Detainee Amendment to the Defense Appropriations bill. The United States Senate voted 90-9 to pass the amendment, prohibiting inhumane treatment of prisoners, including prisoners at Gitmo, by limiting interrogation to methods detailed in the military's Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation. McCain then embraced the Military Commissions Act of October 2006, which vastly broadened the definitions of what constituted torture and stripped POWs of their habeus corpus rights.McCain's then voted against the Intelligence Authorization Act of 2008, which would have prevented the intelligence agencies from torturing 'threats'. McCain bizarrely stated during the debate that while he opposed torture, he wasn't going to hold the intelligence agencies to the same standards as the military.

Reason 5
McCain visits a Market in Baghdad, then lies on numerous occasions about it, and it leads to the death of 21 shopkeepers the following day:

21 dead: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1604931.ece
McCain: "There are neighborhoods in Baghdad where you and I could walk through those neighborhoods today." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/04/60minutes/main2648779.shtml
McCain: "General Petraeus goes out there [Iraq] almost everyday in an unarmored Humvee." http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0703/28/ywt.01.html
"I'm not say that they [VIPs] could go without protection. The president goes around America with protection. So I certainly didn't say that." http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0704/01/tww.01.html
Reporter: "[On 26 Mar] You said there are areas in Baghdad that you can walk around freely." McCain: "Yeah, I just came from one."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/01/AR2007040100325_pf.html

No reason

I'll play. Obama's health care proposal is far superior to McCain's health care proposal. (This may call for a separate thread topic if we want to debate it).

One point for McCain.

Back at you: Obama's impressive (to say the least) accademic record in contrast to McCain's.

well for some reason my big ass reply to JFree89 got deleted twice. here it is again without the linked sources:

thank you jfree. he has had some considerable military accomplishments:

Reason 1
McCain graduated 494 out of 498 in his naval airforce class in Annapolis - if it weren't for his Admiral father and truly heroic grandfather, he would never have been allowed to fly - a point that would have spared the Navy millions of dollars, as mccain ended up crashing five airplanes. Since becoming a politician, John McCain has not had a single navy airman from his generation come out to publicly support him - virtually unheard of among the tight-knit military set.

Reason 2
How heroic was mccain in captivity in Vietnam? The answer is not very. He was labelled a 'songbird' by his Vietcong captors, and received  special medical treatment once they found out he was a military elite:

“His Vietnamese capturers soon realized their POW, John Sidney McCain III, came from a well-bred line of American military elites. McCain’s father, John Jr., and grandfather, John Sr., were both full Admirals. A destroyer, the USS John S. McCain, is named after both of them. While his son was held captive in Hanoi, John McCain Jr., from 1968 to 1972, was the Commander-in-Chief of U.S. Pacific Command; Admiral McCain was in charge of all US forces in the Pacific including those fighting in Vietnam. ..The Admiral’s bad boy was used to special treatment and his captors knew that. They were working him.For his part, McCain acknowledges that the Vietnamese rushed him to a hospital, but denies he was given any “special medical treatment.” However….two weeks into his stay at the Vietnamese hospital, the Hanoi press began quoting him. It was not “name rank and serial number, or kill me,” as specified by the military code of conduct. McCain divulged specific military information: he gave the name of the aircraft carrier on which he was based, the number of US pilots that had been lost, the number of aircraft in his flight formation, as well as information about the location of rescue ships…
On the other hand, according to one source, McCain’s collaboration may have had very real consequences. Retired Army Colonel Earl Hopper, a veteran of World War II, Korea and Vietnam, contends that the information that McCain divulged classified information North Vietnam used to hone their air defense system…McCain told his North Vietnamese captors, “highly classified information, the most important of which was the package routes, which were routes used to bomb North Vietnam. He gave in detail the altitude they were flying, the direction, if they made a turn… he gave them what primary targets the United States was interested in.” Hopper contends that the information McCain provided allowed the North Vietnamese to adjust their air-defenses. As result, Hopper claims, the US lost sixty percent more aircraft and in 1968, “called off the bombing of North Vietnam, because of the information McCain had given to them.”

Reason 3
McCain's voting record for veterans stinks. Here's what McCain said:

As President, I will do everything in my power to ensure that those who serve today and those who have served in the past have access to the highest quality health, mental health and rehabilitative care in the world. The disgrace of Walter Reed must not be forgotten. … Whatever our commitments to veterans cost, we will keep them, as you have kept every commitment to us. The honor of a great nation is at stake.

Here's how he voted:

Not only has he refused to support the 21st Century GI Bill, which the Veterans of Foreign Wars endorsed last June, he has consistently voted against increasing funding for the Veterans’ Administration, which oversees all medical care for veterans:

Voted AGAINST an amendment providing $20 billion to the VA’s medical facilities.

Voted AGAINST providing $430 million to the VA for outpatient care “and treatment for veterans,” one of only 13 senators to do so.

Voted AGAINST increasing VA funding by $1.5 billion by closing corporate loopholes.

Voted AGAINST increasing VA funding by $1.8 billion by ending “abusive tax loopholes.”

Reason 4
McCain was against torture before he was for it. On 3 October 05, he introduced the McCain Detainee Amendment to the Defense Appropriations bill. The United States Senate voted 90-9 to pass the amendment, prohibiting inhumane treatment of prisoners, including prisoners at Gitmo, by limiting interrogation to methods detailed in the military's Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation. McCain then embraced the Military Commissions Act of October 2006, which vastly broadened the definitions of what constituted torture and stripped POWs of their habeus corpus rights.McCain's then voted against the Intelligence Authorization Act of 2008, which would have prevented the intelligence agencies from torturing 'threats'. McCain bizarrely stated during the debate that while he opposed torture, he wasn't going to hold the intelligence agencies to the same standards as the military.

Reason 5
McCain visits a Market in Baghdad, then lies on numerous occasions about it, and it leads to the death of 21 shopkeepers the following day:

McCain: "There are neighborhoods in Baghdad where you and I could walk through those neighborhoods today."
McCain: "General Petraeus goes out there [Iraq] almost everyday in an unarmored Humvee." "I'm not say that they [VIPs] could go without protection. The president goes around America with protection. So I certainly didn't say that."
Reporter: "[On 26 Mar] You said there are areas in Baghdad that you can walk around freely." McCain: "Yeah, I just came from one."

Did you just make all that up ?

Haha, what? Do you mean is it all fabrication, or did I come up with it from memory?

It's all public record. His class results at Annapolis was reported in the WSJ. The number of planes crashed is everywhere. That McCain told his captors specific details about US positions and bombing runs comes from congressional testimony and several mainstream news reports. His veterans voting record is public record. His record on Iraq is all true.

What do you mean 'did i make it up'?

So in other words you really had no idea what kind of man you were supporting in John McCain?  You didn't look into it at all before deciding?  Wow.

Yeah, but...

I heard that Obama guy's one of them A-rabs.

LOL ... never knew Obama was such a protected species.

With all due respect... you actually have to bring criticism to the guy before we determine whether it is worthy ;) .

So far, you honestly haven't. If you disagree with Obama on something, tell us and let us debate... cause you're not doing much thus far.

You being lazy in your research into the man you chose to support in no way equates to protecting his opponent.  It is intellectual laziness in the extreme do return with a baseless ad hominem attack instead of addressing the point about your lack of research.  Unless you are a delusional asshole.  Many on the far far far right are very delusional about Obama and McCain.  If you need proof, all you have to do is read one of Reaganite's threads. 

Quite obviously he's not. If he were, I wouldn't still be getting emails about how he's the anti-christ and hates the troops.

There are some very valid criticisms of him, and it's entirely logical to discuss them. For instance, I really don't care for how he voted against the Illinois partial birth abortion ban. Nor am I entirely comfortable with some real estate deals he's made in the past.

But some of the claims against against him are absurd, as is the notion that he's a 'protected species' because someone points out the absurdity of some of these claims.