IAP Political Forum

No one can say. Be we can look at all the history since WWII and extrapolate it into the future. It is a fact that the U.S. economy does better with a Democrat in the White House--at least this has been true since WWII. Why? There are various possible reasons, including random luck. The author of the extrapolations below suggests the following: "Bartels’s answer reaches back to the "honeymoon period," the first year after an election, during which presidents have the maximum leverage to implement their economic program. Democrats tend to focus on employment and middle-class wage growth, which is reflected in things like job creation programs, increases in the minimum wage, more generous EITC benefits, worker-friendly appointments to the National Labor Relations Board, pro-unionization policies, and so forth."

The rest of the article is well worth reading. Here it is: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2008/0808.drum.html
Here are the extrapolations, using the last 60 years as a guide:

If Obama wins, unemployment will average about 5 percent. If McCain wins it will average about 6 percent.

If Obama wins, real GDP growth will average about 3 percent per year. If McCain wins it will average less than 2 percent per year.

If Obama wins, poor families will see their incomes grow by more than $6,000 during the next eight years. If McCain wins their incomes will grow by less than $1,000.

If Obama wins, middle-class families will see their incomes grow by about $13,000 during the next eight years. If McCain wins their incomes will grow by about $5,000.

If Obama wins (hold on to your hats for this one), rich families will see their incomes grow by about $36,000 during the next eight years. If McCain wins their incomes will grow by about $32,000.

If Obama wins (hold on to your hats again), the stock market will perform better: the average return on stocks compared to Treasury bills will be about 9 percent. If McCain wins it will be about 4 percent.

If Obama wins, the national debt will grow about $150 billion per year. If McCain wins it will grow $400 billion per year. (For more, see Gregg Easterbrook, page 15.)

And no matter who wins, average annual inflation will be around 4 percent.

I'm going to have to save this thread ;)

Absolutely.

My household is already circling the wagons and I am going into semi-retirement (to make less than what I can in order to avoid the increased tax burden....no point in working harder if more is witheld....I currently give a little more than 1 out of 3 bucks to Sam....and still had to write a $17K check....I'll be damned if I give anymore.)

The top 20% of wage earners pay over 80% of the income taxes in America.

Obama's plan is to SPREAD THE WEATH AROUND MORE!

That means a plumber with 2 employees who earns 300-400k a year becasue he risked all he has to borrow money and work his ass off to start a business will have to sacrifice some MORE of his earning so Obama can give it to someone else.

The guy that dropped out of highschool and works at some warehouse earning 10-15 and hr and does not pay his bills on time, misses mortgage payments, defaults on loans and thinks the world owes him something is the one that will benefit from Obama being in office.

The problem is is you make a small business woner pay 30-40k more in taxes you will make them cut expenses.  the most logical expense to cut is payroll...

Liberal Ideas at work will kill Liberalism :) 

Atleast thats the plan on why I will vote for Obama and every liberal I can in November.  I should pull and acorn and register 75 times, or rent out my home address to california dems to vote in arizona and make it a swing blue state :)

spread the weath guys

That is fine but not by force. The law of unintended consequences can and will kick in ... we can bank on that.

Yes, and that 20% make 95% of the income. Raising their taxes ony equalizes the equation.
  The alternative is to eliminate the backbone of America ...the middle class. Someone has to pay "W's" bills. Without the middle class there will be no American economy...only economic slaves and economic slave owners. Thats not the America I want to live in.

I agree that we need to preserve the middle class by why don't we do that by making every effort possible to get and keep good paying jobs (40-80K) here?

I don't see tapping the wallets of successful people for their money as a successful plan for the long run.

Before we get to the specifics of your statement above, let's clear the air for a moment about this whole business of Demcrats raising people's taxes. First of all, "not cutting taxes" does not equal "raising taxes". Republicans love to use this tortured logic all the time to support their bogus claims and figures of how many times a particular Democrat voted for higher taxes. They take votes against tax cuts and count them as a votes for tax increases. In other words, not cutting somebody's taxes means you're raising them. This is where 99.9% of Republican "statistics" come from when citing examples of when Democrats voted in favor of tax increases. It's where nearly every one of John McCain's claim about Barack Obama voting "96 times" for tax increases comes from. Of course it's complete garbage. It's like a Democrat saying Republicans are for reducing the current federal minimum wage because they didn't vote for a bill that would increase it. Of course you don't see Democrats pulling this kind of blantantly dirty shit-ass politics which is one of the reasons why they are set to win the White House and both houses of Congress in a massive landslide.

Now to your comment. How this idea that not stopping the Republican planned expiration of a Republican tax cut program that was designed from day one by Republicans to be only temporary can somehow be translated into "Democrats raising taxes" is just mind-boggling to me. Republicans designed these tax cuts to expire in 2010. How is that the fault of Demcrats? For not making them permanent? Despite Republican campaign promises, there is no possible way the country can afford to make these tax cuts permanent. Neither party can make these cuts permanent. We didn't have the money the first time around - we had to borrow it from China. What makes you think this country is in any position to fund another wave of trillion dollar tax cuts for the rich today? Particularly considering they didn't pay for themselves as Republicans promised (your children and mine will get to pay the tab for your tax cut - how's that feel?), they didn't produce the massive numbers of new jobs as Republicans promised, and they didn't grow the economy or "trickle down" to the middle class as Republicans promised. So why in the world would we continue a clearly failed tax policy? Especially when we can't afford to pay for it. Can you answer that? Can you give me even one good reason?  

I find these kinds of narrow and short-sighted one dimensional views of finance that Republicans have fascinating. I really do. It's like they can only see 6 inches in front of their face. You've let us know on numerous occassions you are in the "top tier" income tax bracket. Assuming you file jointly as married, and are in the top tax bracket under Clinton you were taxed at 39.6%. In 2001, Bush reduced that top bracket to 35.0%. So for the last 7 years you have paid 4.6% of your annual income less in taxes than if the Bush tax cuts would have never been passed. Assuming you make about $300,000 that equates to about $13,800 per year.

#1. The idea a wealthy surgeon making several hundred thousand dollars per year would be forced into partial retirement because his taxes went up $13,800 a year is pretty laughable to say the least.

#2. There is no reason for you to be happy about your taxes going up $13,800. I don't think anybody expects you to like that idea. However, you have to consider what the Bush tax cuts "really" cost you. Again, this assumes you make exactly $300,000 which is probably wrong but the logic remains correct. Over the course of the last 8 years, the Bush tax cuts would have saved you a total of $110,400 ($13,800 per year x 8 years) than if there would have been no cuts and the Clinton plan was left in place. So, your man Bush has saved you a total of $110,400 with his tax cuts. Not chump change to be sure. That's a good amount of money.

But what have the Bush economic policies over the last 8 years "really" saved you? We know you saved about $110k total in taxes. Now, over 8 years, how much have you spent total in the increased cost of gasoline? How about energy in general? How much money have you lost in the stock market? How much home equity have you lost from the depreciation of your home due to the housing/credit crisis? How much has the skyrocketing cost of healthcare and the exploding number of Americans who no longer have health insurance cost you in new patients? Since the government had to go into debt to pay for these Bush tax cuts, how much of that $110k will you have to give back in the form of higher taxes down the road in order to repay the money we borrowed to finance them in the first place? How much will your children have to pay? How much will your grandchildren have to pay?

I don't know the answers to any of those questions. Only you do. My simple point is that many Republicans have this really dumb way of looking at taxes  where everything is flitered through this oversimplistic Lower Taxes = Always Good / Higher Taxes = Always Bad lens. And I'm sorry but it's just not accurate and in fact really dumb. I don't hear any rich people bitching about how much money they lost under the Clinton Adminstration - and Bill Clinton raised taxes on the wealthly, quite substantially in fact. And we heard all the same dire fear-mongering from the right about how raising taxes was going to destroy the economy and kill job creation and all the same shit we're hearing now. And guess what? The exact opposite happened. The economy took off like a rocketship and job creation went through the roof.

So why don't rich Republicans complain today about how much money Bill Clinton cost them and how much money they lost in the 1990's??? Because they didn't lose any!!! They made shitpots full of money. It was coming out of their damn ears. Whatever they were paying in higher income taxes was getting dwarfed by the truckloads of cash they were raking in on their investments and at their jobs.  

Excellent point... what could we do to keep those jobs here neue? Should we penalize corporations who ship jobs overseas? Or stick to the Bush McCain plan of rewarding them with huge tax cuts? Which  do you think will attain that goal?
Just want to raise them until equality is reached. We need to end the free ride the wealthy are enjoying now.

We need to make it easier for companies to do business competitively in this country. That will include tax breaks for small business to reinvest, it might include taxing companies that go overseas, although I defer to people with more knowledge on the consequences.

And as consumers, it may mean we pay a little more for American made products and services as we cannot get the same price for labor as we are used to getting from China and Vietnam.

fact is that the countries that tax the wealthy the hardest have the best standard of living and most stable economies anywhere. sweden, denmark, norway fly in the face of the idiocy that is reaganomics, and the sooner that conservatives see that supply-side is widening the gap and screweing the middle, the better.

How is giving tax cuts to the rich with borrowed money that will have to be repaid by our children, as Bush did, not also a redistribution of wealth? Our country went into debt to pay for the Bush tax cuts. At some point that debt will have to be repaid - most likely by our children and grandchildren. Why should future Americans have to take their hard-earned money and give it to your plumber???




LOL! Do you know a lot of plumbers pulling down 400 grand a year? Boy, that's one hardworking turd wrangler. You got to plunge a lot of toilets to be bringing in an adjusted gross income (i.e. after deductions) topping $33,000.00 every single month AFTER you pay your 2 employees and AFTER you deduct all your monthly expenses and write-offs. Which Vo-Tech did this plumber go to? I want to enroll today!  



Guess who defaults on their home loans more than any other type of borrowers? Self-employed small business owners. Far and away, self-employed small business owners produce the greatest number of defaults than any other group of mortgage-holders by leaps and bounds. Oh yeah, and guess who the infamous "Liar's Loan" was designed for? Yep, you guessed it - the self-employed small business owner. You see, these hardworking $400k/year plumbers and other small business owners you speak so highly of are almost all big fat tax cheats. Yeah, they all cheat on their taxes. They all live in million dollar homes and drive $80,000 cars, but when it comes time to pay Uncle Sam, somehow miraculously on paper their business shows very little if any taxable income. What a mystery, huh?

Well, it's pretty hard to borrow money to buy a home when you can't document any income. So many small business owners cheat on their taxes that lenders actually had to develop a special loan program for these fucking liars called a "Stated Income/No Documentation" loan. It's more commonly known as a "Liar's Loan". This is where the borrower simply tells the bank how much money they make without having to prove it with documentation. And to no surprise, Stated Income loans ended up being the single biggest source of mortgage foreclosures than any other. 1 in 3 "self-employed stated income" mortgages orginated between 2001 and 2006 is either deliquent or in default today.  

So sorry, your high school drop out isn't the guy who took out a mortgage he couldn't afford and ended up in foreclosure. It was your fucking lying cheating scumbag crooked tax cheating small business owner.  



In order to see a tax increase under Obama, a small business owner would have to report an adjusted gross income - after all of his writeoffs and deductions - of over $250,000. Do you know how many small business owners report a taxable income of over $250k after all of their deductions and writeoffs??? Not shit! You are talking about maybe 1% of ALL small business owners. I know you hate facts, but here is the article from FactCheck.org regarding just how FEW small business owners would see their taxes increase under Obama.....



What I would like to know is when are you going to pay me for all the free education I provide to you? You know, it gets really old being your free personal political science teacher. You know, you can go out an educate yourself on these policies too. It's that hard. Limit yourself to just FactCheck.org and other nonpartisan independent accredited websites and you would probably be okay.

Ya know, if you are going to increase the size of the font and use RED as a color, you should at least check your spelling.

Anyways, I am STARTING TO HOPE Obama wins, then the people can get what they deserve.


   
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard." -
  --  Henry Mencken

interesting statement considering you current place of residence where there is virutaly zero income tax...but yes the Nordic countries are much more equal, but thats not conducive to America's individualistic culture...what works here doesn't necessarily work there and vice versa.  Our country was built on ambition and greed

I'm not really intrested in getting into personal reasons for my decisions, and it has nothing to do with politics.

I work 45-60/hrs a week....It is brutal work....I receive x amount for this work and get taxed y.

Most likely, if I change NOTHING.....y will be going up....but nothing else will change....not x.....not the number of hours...and not the nature of the work.

I qualify for ZERO help with anything....so must foot the bill 100% on my own for everything others get grants/exemptions for.

It is really simple mathmatics for me......If I reduce x to a number that y will not be increased....I will be better off.....exactly how many hours less and the actual number is something my CPA and I will be discussing....less hours is not necessarily a bad thing....a proposed tax increase targeted at me may actually provide motivation to slow down a bit.

I sacrifice a great deal to make what I have now.....right now the pay off is barely worth it....to continue the same way only to have less for me and more for the government is really not worth it to continue the sacrifices.

I didn't know nursing payed that well.

I hardly ever drop below 50... It's brutal work... I also qualify for zero help, but I really don't mind this fact because honestly, I don't need it. I, unlike you am nowhere near the top bracket, not by a longshot.

I also often feel that it is barely worth it, but I have a fairly tight budget and reducing my hours isn't an option.

Fortunately, y is likely to go down for me in the near future.

Congratulations. You must make more than $250,000! Because if you make less than than you won't pay a penny more in tax under Obama.

Or are you talking about the increased taxes you'd pay under McCain's health plan?

John McCain wants to stay in Iraq forever, but no one is asked to sacrifice their precious money to pay for it.

By the way, the awful tax hike on those earning over a quarter million dollars a year is merely restoring the tax rates to where they were prior to Bush's budget-busting and irresponsible tax cuts for those same people in 2001 and 2003.

This easily ranks in my Top 5 most favorite posts of all time on IAP. And I have been posting here literally for years. Awesome response. Simply fucking awesome. There is nothing else to say.

Thanks Ryan.

I don't mean to say that I wouldn't be pissed about my taxes going up, nor do I mean to say that most of the 'rich' are lazy (frankly, someone else's laziness or slack typically aren't any of my business). Given my circumstances (which aren't dissimilar from that of many Americans), I couldn't care less to hear anyone who's taxes will go up under the Obama plan complain about it though.

I don't buy the vast majority of the arguments. Rich people might move away - so might I. My company will have to cut back - good, maybe they'll fire the slacker sitting next to me who my boss thinks I'm somehow responsible for motivating. Progressive income tax is socialism!!! - SFW, you don't like it, go live somewhere where taxpayers didn't buy your business all these nifty socialist roads, the people's utilities infrastructure and stolen-tax-money funded security services. Move to Somalia and text me from your blackberry whenever there's a lull in the shooting. I'd like to hear how your fourth quarter earnings are looking.

The fact is that we've been spending money like drunken sailors, largely on policies that I oppose (or for reasons caused by policies that I oppose). Someones got to pay this tab. I understand that a portion of it will be mine, which is just par for the course. I'm not thrilled about it, but realistically, if anything I'll be getting too much of a tax cut. The ridiculous part is the proposal that this is a good time to give more tax breaks to the people at the top. We've all got bills to pay, so get over it.

Keep in mind, also, that McCain's Iraq policy is also a tax, just as surely as if he took it out of your paycheck.  The money we borrow for that war will have to be repaid.  Either by us, or by our children.

Anesthesia nursing....Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist (CRNA)....info can be found at the AANA website....we provide 70% of all anesthetics in the US and 90% in the military...most all Anesthesia providers that deploy with the troops are CRNAs.

Pay depends on regional location....rural pays better than urban, etc.

My income is not solely based on my current civilian job....I wear other hats...I have military retirement....active reserve pay...I moonlight and have an LLC.

You can check GasWork.com to get an idea of what some may make in your neck of the woods.

The work is brutal in that not many get to experience trauma, malignant diagnosis', pain, suffering and death on a daily basis.

Holding more than two dying children a week makes for a bad week.

You said earlier you were a Surgeon. Which is it? I can buy a Surgeon earning over $250,000 a year, but that's going to be a stretch for a CRNA even with multiple supplemental sources of income. According to salary.com the salary range for an experienced CRNA working in a rural area is between $124k (bottom 10th percentile) and $162k (top 90th percentile) with the overall average salary being around $145,000 per year.   

Assuming you earn the average CRNA salary, you would still have to tack on an additional $105,000 per year from supplemental income before you would see your taxes go up under Obama. It's hard seeing how an army pension and reserve pay could total $9,000 per month. Even giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you earn in the Top 90th percentile of all CRNA's in the country, you would still have to tack on an additional $89,000 per year from supplement income before seeing your taxes go up under Obama. That's still requires you to have an additional $7,400 of income each month from your pension and active reserve pay ON TOP of your top 90th percentile CRNA salary. In other words, your claim of seeing a big tax increase if Obama gets elected strains credibility. Particularly considering at one time you said you were a Surgeon and now you're saying you are a CRNA. 

What I think is, no matter what you really do for a living, your taxes are NOT going to go up if Obama gets elected. And I think you KNOW they are not going to go up. I have no doubt that you make good money. I just don't think you make over a quarter of a million dollars per year. I think you are simply a Conservative Republican pretending to be someone who will be affected by Obama's proposed tax increases in an effort to convince others how that Obama's tax plan will hurt "real folks". 

That's what I think is really going on here and I would bet you your imaginary Surgeon's salary I'm right.

It will not effect my income.

It will effect my employees, and people I buy from though.  If Obama raises my taxes I will cust payroll costs to cover most of the increase increase.  i will let th people i let go know why and will explain when my taxes go down I may be able to bring them back in 4 years.  I will also reduce spending on everything both personal and business.  Many will feel a pinch if my taxes are raised just not me :)

Ryan....I don't particularly care what you think about what I make or don't make...don't believe it?

Fine.

I gave you a website that actually cites current rates on CRNA pay.....GasWork.com...I have no idea where salaries.com gets it's data....sounds like it could be a flat rate.

When you add shift differentials, incentive pay, bonus pays, seniority pays, administrative duty pays, discretionary accounts and locems work....one can meet what I say to be true fairly easy...As I said before...my job is not the only source of income.

If "Joe the Plumber" can be worried about Obama, why can't someone who is charged with your life?

We not "worth" what a plumber is?

Since you believe a site that has nothing to do with the profession, I'll site a few listings from my neck of the woods:

  96700 1 Hour from Wichita Falls, TX Oklahoma All CRNA Practice!!!!! Bread+ Butter cases. New Grads Welcome. Student Loan reimbursement available!!!!!  Full Time $180,000-$230,000 W-2 Recruitment Agency American Healthcare 10/16/2008 09/30/2008

  96703 Tulsa Oklahoma CRNA for evening positon 1PM to 11PM Monday through Thursday.  Full Time $150,000-$200,000 W-2 Group: Private Practice Associated Anesthesiologists, Inc. 09/30/2008 09/30/2008

  96434 Tulsa Oklahoma CRNA for night weekend position Full Time $160,000-$200,000 W-2 Group: Private Practice Associated Anesthesiologists, Inc. 09/24/2008 09/24/2008

95079  Oklahoma Top Job ! Full Time $190,000 $190,000 W-2 Recruitment Agency Preferred Health Associates 10/16/2008 10/02/2008

  66488 1 Hour From Oklahoma City Oklahoma CRNA will Only take 2nd call !!!!! Full Time $180,000- $210,000 W-2 Recruitment Agency American Healthcare

http://www.gaswork.com/search/CRNA/Job

These don't reflect the additional pays I mentioned earlier...this is a "new grad"-vs-"veteran" flat rate.

My wife, who is a CRNA also....is an LLC/1099.....she makes more than me hourly since she does not work in an academic environment.

Like I said....don't believe me?

Fine....no skin off my teeth.

And demonstrate where I EVER said I was a surgeon....veterans here can attest to the fact I have never said such a thing...I work too hard to stop the bleeding they cause  ;D

Patton has never said he was a surgeon.



He's a sponge-bather. An expensive one. (j/k)
http://www.itsallpolitics.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,26/topic,2405.msg58696/#msg58696.


<cough...cough> Sorry.Forgot to turn my head first. :)
Ahk

We've heard the tax story before and we know how it ends. I simply don't believe for a moment when Obama says only those making more than $250,000 will see an increase.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE4D9103CF93BA25751C0A965958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Well.....that much is certain.

I can't believe we're discussing a politicians.....any politicians.......promise with any seriousness.

Its okay, Ryan lacks civility and social skills....we are all used to it.

Below has been cut-and-pasted directly from the American Association of Nurse Anesthetists (AANA):


Check it out yourself at aana.com. The $160,000 even your own trade association reports as the average salary for a CRNA is right in the the same salary range of $124k-$162k that I found on Salary.com (which is an extremely accurate site my professional underwriters use to find out if people are lying to us about how much they make when applying for a loan). I have a lot of experience exposing people who embellish their finances. If they are a professional, we use their own industry trade association figures for salaries of that profession combined with independent accredited sources like salary.com. Together we find this method is about 98% accurate.

You have both your own trade association and another independent unrelated source citing the average salary of a CRNA being somewhere around $150,000 plus or minus +/- $10k. Nowhere near $250,000 per year. Not even remotely close. As for your GasWorks source I check it out. The jobs opportunities you cite are actually advertisements being listed by professional recruiters and head hunters - not by the actual employer themselves. Recruiters are paid on commission and are competing against many other recruiters for a limited number of candidates. They understand the vast majority of qualified candidates are going to click on the link with the highest advertised salary. However, when you click that ad (as I did) you find that in the fine print the salary is described as "estimated" and not the actual pay being offered.

So you can stand by your estimated-not-actual-pay salary listed in a paid advertisement by a commissioned job recruiter, and I will stand by the Nurse Anesthetists salary figures provided by American Association of Nurse Anesthetists and confirmed by a seperate independent source. How's that sound?  



Joe the Plumber is a fucking idiot who has no idea what he's talking about. He's already back-peddled that story so much since the debates it's a joke. That's my whole point - people like you and Joe the Plumber and countless other Conservatives are worried about Barack Obama raising their taxes when they shouldn't be because they don't understand his plan nor have they taken the time to educate themselves on it. That's the problem. They just want to bitch about something and they don't know what they're talking about.
 


Well, if she's also a CRNA she must only work part-time because earlier you said your wife works 20 hours per week. And that's awesome she has an LLC. You really shouldn't have any problems then. Start saving your receipts and get yourself a better CPA and you guys will be just fine. Even if we take everything you say at face value it's not like you are saying you're making $1 million per year or anything. You're basically saying you make a little over $250k per year. Well, there is not reason in the world, with an LCC and 1099 income you guys need to report $250k+ in taxable income. Surely with that kind of dough you guys itemize your deductions. Start writing a bunch of shit off to bring down your taxable income. Easy. Use it as an excuse to go buy yourself a new car or a nice boat or something. Hell with the boat, as long as it has one of the little cuddy cabins in the front you can stick a little portable stove on it and call it a second home and deduct 100% of the loan interest to bring down your taxable income. That's what I did. Or you can take out any home equity you have in your primary residence and invest it while using the bigger mortgage loan (and consequently more mortgage interest paid per year) and use that increased interest paid to write off against your taxable income. The equity you drew out will be earning interest while the interest you are paying on the loan to take out that equity will be tax-dedutible. How can you go wrong there? Between your wife's business expenses and itemizing your personal deductions there is no reason you can't come up with at least $50k-$100k in write offs making the money you make.    


You certainly gave that impression. In an earlier post, title "McCain's nonstop constant lying" you and I had the following exchange.....

RYAN77: Both at the RNC, in multiple campaign ads, and countless times on the campaign trail, John McCain has stated Obama would increase taxes on working families. Is John McCain lying?

PATTON: Seeing as I work 60 hours a week and my wife 20....we are a "working family"...and our taxes would INCREASE under Obama

RYAN77: And Patton, do you make over $250,000K a year?  

PATTON: Most every hard working surgeon in America makes over 250K......many work very long hours into the night to protect the one thing most all of us cherish the most....most of them start their career $100K or more in debt with student loans. By all means....say these people don't count as hard working Americans....and by all means say they DESERVE to have their compensation confiscated.

LOL....what a pathetic piece of work....What part of "My civilian pay is not my only source of income" you not understand?......I have no idea what you think you prove quoting 4 year old averages, without addressing bonuses, incentives and all the other specialty pays I addressed earlier, and then disputing wages listed on job posting sites...LOL.....what is it your trying to prove by ignoring 26 years of military service? Go ahead and lowball my civilian pay, but please add in my 26 year 0-5 retirement and 4 0-5 drills/month + (2weeks in the summer) and don't forget the CRNA ISP (Incentive Specialty Pay).....whatcha get there cowboy?

After you do that, we'll discuss the locems work and consulting services.....then we can add my wife's "pathetic" income.....

Your are haggard piece of partisanship....I hope Obama pays you well....but maybe not too well....or you'll get it taxed....so maybe you'll need to work less.

And if you think you're safe.....oh....nevermind....a complete waste of time.

Oh...I mentioned my colleagues (surgeons) as "most every"........as in "most every surgeon" makes over $250K......I didn't use CRNAs ON PURPOSE...because "most every" CRNA doesn't....only those who have implemented a plan over the course of 30 years can claim that......LOL.....too friggin much.


No kidding.


Do you normally mess it up this bad and embarass yourself?

I started this by saying I will cut back...and it had nothing to do with politics....but you just had to inject it, didn't you.....(shakes head)

Pathetic.

(I will say the great thing about my income is that it always goes up.....doesn't matter what the market does....and it's not affected with housing...it's constant....unchanging....unwavering....LOL)

I do understand it and I addressed. According to my calculations your military pension and your active reserve pay alone would still have to total around $8,000 to $9,000 per month - in addition to your civilian pay - in order to get you over the quarter million dollar threshold. And unless you are a 5-Star General, $8k to $9k per month in pension and reserve pay just doesn't seem realistic to me. For most career military people you're talking maybe $2k or $3k tops.



The salary.com figure represents total average compensation including bonuses. I have no idea why the the AANA figure wouldn't include bonuses in its total average compensation figure as well, particularly since it matches the salary.com bonus-included figure. 


I am not disputing them, only pointing out that the postings themselves clearly say that the salaries listed are estimates and not the actual pay for the position. You can't use an estimated salary as proof of an actual salary. Especially considering the job poster has very strong motives to overinflate this estimated salary. That seems rather common sense to me. 


Hey, there's no doubt you make good money. No doubt. I have no idea what you actually make and whether or not it's actually over $250k. All I am trying to say here is that it's very obvious even you do make over $250k per, it's not by very much. Even taking every single thing you take at face value you would still "only" make maybe $300k or $350k per year. My point is that if you have an LLC like you say you have, there is no reason you can't get that $300k or $350k down below $250k with write-offs and deductions. In other words, you're going to have to be making closer to $500,000 per year before you get to the point that even after your write-offs you are still above $250k.


Well the transcript is right there. People can read it for themselves and make their own determination. In what has become an almost whinning ongoing theme from you, you were once again complaining about how hard you work. In response, I straight up asked you "Do you make more than $250,000 per year?" Your answer was "Most every hard working surgeon in America makes over $250,000 per year."

If that isn't suggesting you're a surgeon I don't know what the hell it is. But whatever, I could care less. You - like most Republicans - are going to bury your hand in the sand and insist on believing what you want to believe despite how overwhelming the evidence is to the contrary. Call it the WMD's in Iraq mentality. It's very common among those of your political ilk. 

You're right....people will make their determination on what I said.

My answer was ignoring your attempt to make this personal.

My answer was to use an example you wouldn't pathetically split hairs over in some stupid "gotcha" game.....like the one you've engaged in here.

A game I refused to play by disputing previous declarations of your income....but was forced to participate in because of your attempt at making me look like some kind of liar.

I could drive to Wichita and meet you at Starbucks and trade the tax receipts of the past 10 years......if I didn't stop and laugh at the reason why I would be going to such lengths to prove something to someone like you over the internet.

Truth is you have no idea about who I am, what I make, and the different income streams I have from nothing other than hard work and determination.

If you have good cause to believe me a liar from my extensive history here, then why not use evidence readily available here at IAP?

Yes....I have said my work is hard.....Yesterday, I got to watch a father say goodbye to his daughter as we prepared her for organ harvest.

What did you do that was so hard yesterday, other than attack someone who says Obama will raise his taxes?

Do you really believe.....with this much passion.....EVERYTHING a politician.....a politician who is on record as lying and/or stretching the truth, says?

Isn't this what this is really about?

It's somehow easier to exercise energy in trying to refute things you have no clue of in me.....rather than defend a politicians, who has lied in the past, campaign promise?

Ryan, I have never had any reason to doubt Patton on his word, have you?  Or are you simply interested in going through this exercise because he is a conservative?  And why would you believe everything any politician has said?  I don't get it Ryan, what does this matter in the end?

The transcript of the conversation is right there. From reading that transcript I think it's pretty easy to see how one could mistake his comments as a suggestion that he is a hardworking surgeon making over $250k even if that wasn't his intention. If he says that wasn't his intention I believe him. But I'm certainly not going to apologize for mistinterpreting his ambiguious language on the matter.

And the only reason Patton's income is germane to the discussion (or the income of anyone complaining about Barack Obama's tax plan) is the simple fact a person's gross income exceeds $250,000 per year does not automatically mean you will see a tax increase. Most individuals or businesses with gross annual incomes in excess of a quarter million dollars per year have many possible tax dedutions and write-offs. So what I am saying is that if I got hired tomorrow at some really nice job paying a straight salary of $300,000 per year it is very unlikely I would be affected by Obama's tax increase. Why? Because at that income level there are a host of deductions and write-offs any CPA halfway worth their salt can help you take advantage of to reduce your taxable income below the $250k threshold. A person would need to be making closer to $500,000 per year or more before they are going to be in a situation where, even after their deductions, they are still unable to get their adjusted gross income after deductions under $250,000. And while Patton may very well have a combined total gross household income in excess of $250,000 per year; I don't even think he claims it's anywhere near $500,000 and therefore unless he just has a complete moron for an accountant there is no reason he should be hit by Obama's tax increase. 

So that is my only point. You have all these people out there bitching and moaning about Obama's tax plan who don't even understand it and won't even be affected by it. If Patton is going to come here calling Obama a "Socialist" and bemoaning how Obama is punishing him and taking his hard-earned money and giving it to poor people he better know what he's talking about or I'm going to nail him on it. Whether it be in real life or online, if people don't take the time to educate themselves on Obama's tax plan before bitching about it and misinforming others about it, and they come across me, I'm going to make them look like a fool - period. I'm tired of listening to people argue from positions of ignorance on this tax issue.

Agreed. The reason I liked your previous post so much is becausing listening to people who earn more than $250,000 per year complain about how much they pay in taxes or complain about how hard they work reminds me of listening to my 6-year-old complain. It's almost impossible to avoid saying, at least mentality, "Oooooh poor baby!".

I think it is good to occassionally remind people who are well-off that just because a job pays well does not necessarily mean that job is any harder or more important than a job that doesn't pay well, and that the person occupying that job isn't necessarily any smarter or better or harder working or more important than a firefighter, a teacher, a custodian, a secretary, a farmer, a convenience store clerk, or anyone else.

Unfortunately, the most disgusting part of my job is that I am frequently interacting with people who have a lot of money. As you might expect, the vast majority of these people have convinced themselves they are much better than everyone else. Not just better in terms of having more money or nicer things. But better in terms of attributing their "success" in life to working harder than everyone else, making better decisions than everyone else, being smarter than everyone else, etc. etc. etc.

What is particularly nauseating with "rich" people is the constant masturbation of their own ridiculous egos. You hear lots of things like "Nobody gave me anything. I'm a self-made man" or "Everything I have I got with my own two hands" or "I don't owe anybody anything. The only person who deserves credit for my success is me" In fact, Patton has said many similar things in the past which just confirms to me that he does in fact make a lot of money because for some reason this is the main mentality of most wealthy people.

Of course in reality nobody ever achieves anything solely on their own. Whether our success be large or small, we all owe someone something for it. If Bill Gates was born in rural Pakistan instead of Southern California would he still have become the world's richest man? Probably not. If Warren Buffet had been raised by a single mom addicted to crack-cocaine in the inner city instead of two loving parents who fostered his entrepenuerism would he still have become a billionaire? I doubt it. Or for any one of us.....how about all of those who have encouraged us along our personal paths of success? Our parents, grandparents, friends, family members, our wives or husbands, our girlfriends or boyfriends, our teachers and educators. Or jeez, I don't know, how about God? Maybe He had something to do with your success too, huh? Maybe just possibly. Nothing makes me want to puke my guts out more than some guy who makes a little bit of money and then turns around and says "The only one who deserves credit for my success is me!"

Compared to the rest of the world every one of us is among the most successful people on earth by the sheer fact we are here right now typing on a computer and all have jobs to go to and homes to sleep in and cars to drive our well-clothed and well-fed bodies.
 

So, people who make a lot of money have no right to complain about how much of their hard earned money is confiscated by the government so they can give foreign aid to Israel, Pakistan, give tax breaks to companies who move US jobs overseas, waste 50 billion a year fighting a drug war while we look the other way in US occupied Afghanistan letting the poppies grow which supply over 90% of the world's heroin, as well as waste billions on pork, fraud and mismanagement?

?

we have a new baldar

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So now we have the silly personal BS out of the way....moving on.

A key component to the conversation was conveniently ignored....so lets move on to things that can be proven.

Ryan was asked TWICE:


and...


You've recited Obamas' plan "item by item, verse for verse"

From information that is already out there, you honestly believe he will implement his grandiose designs without raising taxes on me?

Do you believe if you have another "great year" described earlier, your tax bill won't be higher under a President Obama?

In light of everything that is going on economically?

If the money is not in the Treasury, is he giving up his plans in lieu of raising taxes?

The difference with making claims on IAP versus attempting to get personal information from strangers over the internet are falsities that are easily proven here with a quote button.

A cynic would believe that you'll continue to regurgitate talking points while ignoring political realities....in light of what has happened to now....I'm not cynical.....yet.

That point resonates louder with McCain, Patton. Especially when you consider who's advising him. Who is McCain going to tax? Or is he just going to fix it by, "Not giving hundreds of billions of dollars to countries that don't like [you]"? And if that is the case why are you so sure Obama won't?

You end up in the same place: a bad financial position that only one of them has the mechanisms  to cure.


Ahk

Apparently, you have forgotten that it was you who originally and voluntarily interjected your own personal income, personal profession, and other personal details into the conversation. You gotta love it. "I wanna talk about my personal income and my personal tax situation but I insist all responses to me be strictly non-personal!" Only you, Patton. Only you.

I admire your enthusiasm.....I do not share your trust in politicians.

You never did answer whether you believe taxes will be raised on those making BELOW $250K....I believe they will.....but at this point, I don't think it really matters anymore.

Congrats on your victory.

He has promised to not raise taxes on those making less than $250k, in fact, he has promised to cut taxes for those people. So again, yes, I think he will keep that promise and not raise taxes on those making less than $250k. But the reason I believe this isn't because he is so much more honest than other politicians. I believe he will keep this particular promise because he is an extremely smart campaigner. Two of the smartest, sharpest, and most experienced politicians in Washington (Hillary & McCain) spent two full years hitting Obama with their absolutely best possible A games and he left both of them looking like utter fools. Any other freshman senator on earth would never be able to stand up to these longtime veteran campaigners.

Obama is smart and he chooses his words carefully. He'll start thinking about 2012 his first day in office. He knows the issue of taxes are the Republicans' single biggest - and most effective - political weapon against Democrats. He would never hand them such a gift.

Other programs and promises, sure, he like any president will have to adapt his agenda to the realities on the ground. Many of his promises and policy proposals were developed long before the economic crisis began (as were McCain's). And we still don't know what tomorrow will bring. So it's anybody's guess how many of his campaign promises he will be able to keep and how many will just not be feasible in light of current circumstances. 



This is not my victory. This is a victory for America. If he does win I hope he can earn the support of those like you who initially opposed him. I'm sure there were plenty of Carter voters in 80 and plenty of Mondale voters in 84 who were later very happy "their guy" didn't end up winning after all.

just a tid bit...McCain is hardly an "A" game campaigner....he got buried against Bush and Rove in the primary and he got buried against Obama too.  As much as people may hate to admit it, Rove is the "A" game campaigner on the right.  McCain made mistake after mistake during this season (Palin, attack style, etc)

No doubt McCain has ran an undisciplined campaign that has consistently pursued uneffective strategies, even long after they proved ineffective. But the point I was making was that even with such flawed campaigning, a vetern senator like McCain would be able to easily crush most Democratic freshman senators in an election - especially an unexperienced black man with an ultra liberal voting record and multiple ties to radical Anti-American leftwing nuts who is publically declaring his intent to raise taxes once elected. I mean shit, what else could a Republican ask for?

If a person was to examine this election strictly on paper, defeating Obama would appear like a walk in the park for McCain - even if McCain's campaign was a complete disaster.   

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