IAP Political Forum

"In America the people are afraid of the government."

--a American ex-pat in France--

But why? Our goverment is the most ineffectual in the world? We, well, the Reagan Revolution made it that way. America loves to gobble down the delusion of its own Martyrdom by the government. We have the lowest tax rates, yet there is no end to bitching about taxes. Why? Maybe because we get so little for them. Why? Because we refuse to pay for anything. We want great schools and health care and no taxes. This is a nation of children (oh, sorry, I mean GREAT PRINCIPLES LIKE NOT PAYING TAXES AND KICKING THE POOR IN THE TEETH.)

How did America come to be such a sniveling, narrow, rediculous place. When did optimistic America die and become replaced by a snotty hate-filled little brat?

Have you ever been to the website, Citizens Against Government Waste?

How much reading have you done on government waste? What agencies have been listed as HIGH RISK by the GAO?

Have you ever read the book, "Is that a POlitician in Your Pocket"?

Ever read the book, "The Government Racket:Government Waste A-Z"?

According to the Grace Commission, where does every single penny of income taxes from individual tax payers go?

http://www.cagw.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10354

Simple one one answer......LIBERALISM

Yeah, 'cause government spending dropped so much with W in office and a conservative congress.  Glad to see they fixed all that liberal spending while they had the chance. 

Seriously, do you think before you type?

Considering it's the same three sentences every thread, I'd say he has it on auto-respond.

Well take you for a example.....stupid is as stupid does...fits you to a capital T

Bush is indeed a fiscal socialist. If you're going to criticize him (other than his utterly non-presidential communication skill set) here's where to do it and not sound crazy.
Another way of looking at it could be that instead of the economy giving the gov its money, the gov is giving the economy its money. The government is the debtor and it owes its creditor (the US economy) a boatload of cash money...plus 1 little man.

We have a liberal congress now... Seems nothing has changed (except for congressional approval getting lower).
And as for Bush. He isn't even a conservative. So that's a moot point.

If every politician was really a liberal or a conservative, the contry and economy would be doing great because both make reasonable choices. The problem is our government is run by Republicans and Democrats who don't practice ANY method they supposedly subscribe to... except for greed, corruption and the pursuit of more power.

Both parties suck. I'm getting tired of writing it.

Our government should be afraid of us, we have guns and strong points in the constitution against government tyranny. Unfortunately people are too stupid and don't know their rights and believe the government can do no wrong so they let them do what they want. Like with the neo-cons wire-tapping and going off on crusades over seas so the top 1% can put more oil in their planes and continue ripping off the american people with higher gas prices. Or on the other side of the coin when the neo-libs want to get rid of guns and create laws that violate freedom of speech like in New York by getting rid of words like "bitch" and the "n-word". People just don't care and let these things happen when it's a clear violation of the constitution and anyone who agreed to pass them should be in a jail cell with the worst of the worst. It's taking away human rights and all that we stand for.

The government is not a debtor to its own citizens, because it returns value to them in the form of vital public services that millions of people use. What the government must now do is increase taxes so as to balance the budget and be able to in fact increase spending. High spending is justified by high taxes, and society is made more stable as a result. 

How do you like that?  ;)

I couldn't disagree more.  We need to Eliminate 2/3rds of the Federal Government immediately.  Then Eliminate the income tax.  The notion that US citizens don't pay enough taxes in ridiculous.  Our government in is a criminal and fraudulent organization that steals and wastes our money.  We also need to end the unconstitutional central bank of the Federal Reserve.

WTF part of this is a bad thing??

Wow, someone who actually understands and supports the principles in the constitution.

I am shocked.

Notice how Irwin has not posted since he started this thread?

Notice how he ignored all of my questions?

Notice how most of the people who support more taxes have never bothered to research government waste?

Notice how Irwin talks about taxes, schools and healthcare, but people who wish to keep most of the money they earn are........."snotty hate-filled little brats"?

So, if I want to refuse to give the government money so that they can spend 50 billion a year on war on drugs, which does nothing but make every problem associated with drug use worse, then I am a snotty hate-filled little brat?

I guess if I don't want the government spending my money on illegal immigrants, especially when there are so many tax paying Americans who need help, I am a snotty hate-filled little brat?

I bet Irwin has no idea how much TAXPAYER money is spent on illegal immigrants, or the war on drugs, or wasted by hundreds of agencies, or the countless examples of fraud, and abuse. People like Irwin usually have good hearts, but they either do not understand what individual liberty means, or they do not support it.

People like Irwin fail to understand that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Because people like this are too lazy to research the documented abuses that have happened in the past, they fail to see why giving more money to the government is a bad idea.

These people live in an imaginary world and they have no clue as to what is going on in the world. It wouldn't be so bad if they would actually make an effort to educate themselves, but they fear the truth, so they refuse to research almost any topic.

Tis sad.

I think its sad that you think you have all the answers...

The American government is the people.  If there is something we should be afraid of, it should be ourselves.

Was a nice thought Gojira.  Even if it is a lie.  This government hasn't belonged to the people in a very long time.  It is the instrument of the Banking Elite and their special interests.

Only because we allow it...

I have to disagree.

The government does a great job of dismissing dissent as "ridiculous" and "silly", which leads to a population less inclined to disagree. Which is bad.

Yea, part of the problem is us... but a larger degree of blame rests with our leadership, in my opinion.

A lot of truth in that.

The American people have allowed many things we shouldn't have allowed.

Right now the majority of Americans favor medical marijuana and tighter border security, yet our government does not listen to us.

Yes, the people must accept their share of the blame, but that doesn't mean our government is without blame. They have sold us out.

A few brave Congressmen have tried to tell us the truth, but the people refuse to believe it. We only believe what we want to believe and we have allowed the "establishment" to tell us what to think.

As Congressman Larry P. McDonald told us......

"The Rockefeller File is not fiction. It is a compact, powerful and frightening presentation of what may be the most important story of our lifetime, the drive of the Rockefellers and their allies to create a one-world government, combining super-capitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control.

For more than one hundred years, since the days when John D. Rockefeller Sr. used every devious strategy he could devise to create a gigantic oil monopoly, enough books have been written about the Rockefellers to fill a library. I have read many of them. And to my knowledge, not one has dared reveal the most vital part of the Rockefeller story: that the Rockefellers and their allies have, for at least fifty years, been carefully following a plan to use their economic power to gain political control of first America, and then the rest of the world.

Do I mean conspiracy? Yes, I do.

I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent. You will find the truth-often surprising, sometimes unpleasant, always vital-in the pages that follow. Gary Allen has done a masterful job of combining the hundreds of scattered facts and hidden clues of the Rockefeller puzzle until one unmistakable pattern emerges."--Congressman Larry P. McDonald from the introduction to The Rockefeller File by Gary Allen

Can you elaborate?

I think you got it right on Abraxas. Half the problem is bad leadership and the other half is the sheep of society or the people who just let things happen and don't care as well.

Well, look at our 2 party system, for instance. It's extremely limiting and makes anyone with an alternative or mixed view point to become a minor party. Dissesnt becomes a minorty which means policy comes in 2 flavors and often times they both taste like shit.

Another problem is people in this country just let politicians run everything because Americans feel no responcibility to understand the issues. The more a politician can complicate a problem the better chance we have of not understanding it. It becomes worse when the media starts doing it too.

Americans have a responcibility to understand what is goin on in this country and MANY don't have a clue... especially the youngns' who can vote.

As far as I can see, the failure of this country rests with her people AND her leaders.

Your right.  Our party system is balls.  (No metaphor intended)  Why is it that we reverted to such a 2 party system these days?  It wasn't always like that.


...AND social instititions AND business AND beuacracy AND non-profos AND communities.

   

Actually the problems are extremely complicated.  Sometimes so complicated as such as it is impossible to see who benefits and who doesn't after certain implementations of policy.  Social scientists will come out with studies that come around both sides, and one begins to think that maybe there was an agenda behind them, so now we have to try and figure out if such a study is even done in good faith.  Miracle Econometrics, as I am currently learning, can yield two different outcomes to support two different theories on the same data set.  It is all depending on what kind of method you chose or how you model your initial theory. 

So no, I do not believe it is the politicians that are ruining America like you so speak, and many others speak, may I conclude.  It is actually all run by agenda, and the only thing that brews Agenda are those who speak it and the people who perpetuate its growth. 

Politicians are just one peice of the whole puzzle of trying to implement certain agendas on the general American public and it pains me to say that many plainly do not pay attention.   Like it was never in their own benefit.  Its the Federalist Papers gone awry.

Madison would be rolling in his grave...


I have sat on this one for a while now after much reflection, all I can say is that the only thing Americans have the responsibility for is to pay taxes, shut up, get fat and watch football.  >:( 

My cynycism at its greatest...
 

The American people are so clueless, most don't even know that the US has been in a State of National Emergency since 1933.

What is worse, is that if you tell someone about this, they still do not care, as they do not see how it affects them, so they are simply not interested.

Any person who actually cares about liberty and cares about the future of this country would wonder why the US has been in a state of national emergency for so long and why it isn't reported by the media.

Um...What? ??? Explain please.

The USA has been in a declared state of national emergency since 1933.

There were a few years where there was no declared national emergency during the 70's, but it didn't take long for the national emergency to be reinstated.

From Senate Report 93-549

War and Emergency Powers Acts,

 "A majority of the people of the United States have lived all of their lives under emergency rule. For 40 years [now 66 years], freedoms and governmental procedures guaranteed by the Constitution have, in varying degrees, been abridged by laws brought into force by states of national emergency. The problem of how a constitutional democracy reacts to great crises, however, far antedates the Great Depression. As a philosophical issue, its origins reach back to the Greek city-states and the Roman Republic. And, in the United States, actions taken by the Government in times of great crises have - from, at least, the Civil War - in important ways, shaped the present phenomenon of a permanent state of national emergency."

The Foreword to the Report states in part -

    "Since March 9, 1933, the United States has been in a state of declared national emergency. In fact, there are now in effect four presidentially proclaimed states of national emergency: In addition to the national emergency declared by President Roosevelt in 1933, there are also the national emergency proclaimed by President Truman on December 16, 1950, during the Korean conflict, and the states of national emergency declared by President Nixon on March 23, 1970, and August 15, 1971.

    These proclamations give force to 470 provisions of Federal law [hundreds more since 1973, particularly in the Clinton administration since Jan 21, 1993]. These hundreds of statutes delegate to the President extraordinary powers, ordinarily exercised by the Congress, which affect the lives of American citizens in a host of all-encompassing manners. This vast range of powers, taken together, confer enough authority to rule the country without reference to normal Constitutional processes.

    Under the powers delegated by these statutes, the President may: seize property; organize and control the means of production; seize commodities; assign military forces abroad; institute martial law; seize and control all transportation and communication; regulate the operation of private enterprise; restrict travel; and, in a plethora of particular ways, control the lives of all American citizens."

http://www.barefootsworld.net/war_ep.html

/////

I am not sure what year the national emergency was reinstated, but I know that Reagan declared at least one national emergency.

Under Clinton, the National Emergency was continued every year he was in office.

Now, under Bush, the National emergency must be continued every 6 months.

Some of the reasons given for continuation of the national emergency were pathetic.

For instance, under Clinton, one of the excuses to continue the national emergency was the threat of terrorism from Libya.

While Clinton was in office there were actually 12 different national emergencies that were continued.

Despite Congress' effort, a dozen or so national emergencies have been declared and renewed annually, and are right now in effect. These are premised upon problems with Iran (every year since 1979), Libya (since 1986), Iraq (since 1990), Yugoslavia (since 1992), proliferation of weapons of mass destruction (since 1993), UNITA (Angolan anti-communists, since 1993), Middle East terrorism (since 1995), Colombian drug dealers (since 1995), Cuba (since 1996), Burma (since 1997), and Sudan (since 1997). Even the expiration of a statute, the Export Administration Act of 1979, caused President Clinton to declare and renew a state of national emergency (since 1994).

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=16932

Yeah, I see Burma as such a threat that we need a declared state of national emergency.

If you want to read more, just type into google "CLINTON NATIONAL EMERGENCY" OR "BUSH NATIONAL EMERGENCY"

Wow.  This is news to me.  So what your saying is that the president, when announcing that the State is in a National Emergency, are able to overreach their constitutional powers?

Explains the patriot act...

However, I do not like your sources.  I have a historian friend who may be able to confirm what you say and elaborate on what this means. 

But thanks for the explanation! Much interesting. Will do research...

While it is good to question sources, over the last 10 years I have never seen a false government document on the web.

The link from Barefoots world has another link to a copy of the actual Senate report. Don't expect to find the report from any government website, as the government has very few documents scanned from before 1994. Of course there is a document at the Department of State's website from 1961. Gee, I wonder what makes that document special enough to be found at a government website?

Hmmm, what could it make it so significant?

FREEDOM FROM WAR 1961

http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/arms/freedom_war.html

The info on the national emergencies is easy to find. The Whitehouse issues the continuations.

Here is one such example from the STATE Department's website.....

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2003&m=July&x=20030731181136namfuaks0.694668

One from the Whitehouse.....

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/09/20070912-2.html

Ah! I am convinced. Thanks!

This new information irks me.  But such is the convoluted intricacies of the American Government...

It was news to me when I first learned about it as well. What really ticked me off is the fact that the Whitehouse issues press releases every time a national emergency is continued, but the media does not report it.

It took a long time for me to admit that the mass media in this country is controlled. Not 100% controlled, but enough to further the agenda of the powers that be.

Are you sure all media outlets doesn't report it? I am sure public radio and broadcasting might have had a share in mentioning it.  However things like this is not profitable to the rest so it will not be mentioned. 

I can't decipher whether its important or not.  Maybe this is just an accepted practice of presidential power since its inception during the Great Depression.   

Pond Scum is right, not only can the president do this but members of the FEMA organization can do it as well. With each and every year government gets bigger and bigger. More organizations are made (hint CIA,FEMA,FBI etc, etc.) and more unconsitutional acts are permitted to the government (war powers act, patriot act, etc.). And guess what, after each crisis at the time is over they don't return the power. My guess is guns and freedom of speech will be the next things under attack under the Good Society Act led by the CSA (Clean Society Agency). Oh wait guns and freedom of speech are all ready under attack what am I saying?   

Weren't they always under attack?

Not like now, where in New York you can't say certain words like "bitch" or the n-word. Not saying I condone those words but there's a million other words that mean the same thing. You can't just outlaw words like that, it's unconstitutional. Guns are always under attack true, but I was just saying you see a trend in the government gaining power all the time and it's not good.

You can't say bitch in New York? I love that word! What if it was in context in describing your dog?  It would be a shame to be fined...

But I get your point, if we keep this up, sooner or later we will be living like the people from Demolition Man, getting charged for every curse and having Virtual Sex! Oh no!  If I was put in that situation, I would so be eating rat burgers...

It was always 2 parties pretty mush, they just had different names.

Back then though it was always States Rights vs. Federal Rights. Now, however, our federal government is so bloated it's come down to pretty much abortion and healthcare that distinguishes the parties anymore.


All those people are made up of Americans.

I was just being REALLY general.


I can see your points.

But sometimes issues come up that ARE so clear cut, but the media and opponets and supporters cloud everything up on purpose. It's those problems I'm talking about.


Shame. I wish it was sarcasm.

I have to disagree with that, then.

Americans choose their leaders and if they aren't aware of the issues than how are they going to pick who's best? What scares me is that too many people have your mentality and I think that is part of the problem...

But that's just me...

It kind of was.  Bad choice of emoticon.

What scares me is that choice of cynicism unfortunately reigns true.  The only way we can ever get things to change is if people CHANGE that mentality.  It frustrates me when so much blame is placed on politicians who were put there by the American people in the first place...

Middle class America voting Republican...oh how much that supports my idea that agenda has so much more power over any people's mindset.  Problem is, our mindset needs to be changed.  Not an easy thing to do. 

Suggestions?  Pistol whipping maybe?  ;D

Voter turnout in the country makes me sick...  >:(

Oh, you said cynicism so I thought you were just being brutally honest.


I just wished people had to write their checks to the IRS... or pay a surtax for the war in Iraq... or be forced to read the annual budget. Well, maybe not the last one, cause that would KILL me... but you get the point. No one seems to have a clue and the less responcibility a politician can give an American citizen, the happier they seem to be.

Of course, ruining future generations is all in a days work...

SS, healthcare, alternative energy, the economy...

My generation is fucked.

*shakes head* 


Don't EVEN get me started on that...

The national emergencies are almost totally ignored by the mass media. Usually only alternative media sites carry the stories.

For example, a continuation of a national emergency was just issued September 13, but go ahead and look for the story at google news, or any other news search.

Here it is from the Free Market News Network......

Bush Continues 'National Emergency'
Thursday, September 13, 2007 - FreeMarketNews.com

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
September 12, 2007

Notice: Continuation of the National Emergency with Respect to Certain Terrorist Attacks

http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=48865&fb=1

//////

Good luck finding this story at any large media outlet.

OUR generation is fucked. 

Sorry. Thought you were older.

No 22.  ;D

I look like I am 30. (i.e. balding)

Your replies sound much more mature and are very well thought out. That's why I figured you were older.

Well thank you! It takes one to know one...  :)

Maturity and age have been mathmatically proven to never equal each other.

Expected Maturity will never equal Actual Maturity.  Law of large numbers n' such.

Oh, the old rhetorical question argument. I'm supposed to be afraid of the government because of government waste? Maybe you should get a bigger picture of things, huh? Maybe you can give me a percentage of government waste as a part of the over all budget. Or maybe you could stay on topic. Or maybe you could make an argument that is not a question?

I love this argument, the most conservative president in history is a liberal. Excuse me?

It was always a lie that conservatives cut spending and make government smaller.

No, they just start wars, which need more government and spend everything on weapons and tax cuts.

We get the leadership we deserve. If we are infantile and selfish and lazy and greedy and cynical. Our government will be too. The stae of the government is nobody's fault but the people. But god forbid anyone take responsibility and do something about it instead of whining...

It's like the boss complaining about his employees being worthless when he hardly shows up at the office and doesn't bother to know what he is doing. We are the boss.

Again, that was not a law but a SYMBOLIC law. It was not intended to be enforced or enforceable. Like flag codes.