IAP Political Forum

All the US government has to do is pass a law whereby criminal immigrants are legally required to turn themselves in for processing and deportation.

Once that law is established illegal immigrant criminals MUST turn themselves in voluntarily to be deported.

AND, if they don't... and ICE has to go out and find them... they automatically lose ALL possibility of EVER becoming a US citizen legally: They are forever banned from entering the USA to obtain citizenship.

This way illegal immigrant criminals have a chance to abide by US laws by willfully turning themselves in to ICE for processing and deportation.

Unless this law is passed, the burden will remain on taxpayers via ICE to physically find, arrest and remove every last one of the millions of illegal immigrant criminals.

Thank you,

blueskys

Great idea but will never happen....

Between the liberal ACLU and the democrats, oneday they will have these people voting without being legal citizens just because they pay sales taxes here.....they are counting on it for the future of the demcrat party and liberal power. And screw the laws of this country as long as they have power and office to get it.

I hate to burst your bubble, but I think the chances of this working are slim to none, even if it does get by that pesky democratic process.

Illegal immigrants are already disregarding the law by being here, I don't see where writing one more that just reaffirms the original will convince them to leave.

The threat of permanently denying citizenship might work as leverage, assuming that they're here to apply for citizenship and become Americans. This policy would be less effective on the ones that are just here to get some money and then go back.

If anything, you'd want it to be the other way around, more effective on the ones who just want to get money and go back.

wouldn't this violate the 5th amendment?

That's just a horrible, horrible idea.

#1 Ice isn't even big enough to handle something like this. They have enough trouble as it is
#2 Deport 12-20 million illegal immigrants? What are you going to do, throw them all on busses? You're out of your mind.
#3 You actually think they are going to turn themselves in? We already have a law that says they can't come here. They broke that. Passing a law saying "turn yourselves in" isn't going to jack. The reality is we ALREADY have enough on them to have ICE ship them out of here. But ICE doesn't have the man power, nor is it realistic to bus that many people out of the US. Again you're out of your mind.

The real solution is making stricter laws on the hiring process. If illegals can't get a job, they won't be able to stay here.

  Here's a much much better idea:
 How about an amnesty bill that exonerates all EMPLOYERS from prosecution and jail time if they fire all their illegal employees today and don't hire any more of them. If they don't comply they all go to jail and lose their business licenses. Without jobs the illegals will go home.

 BTW welcome to IAP Blueskys. Glad to have you aboard.

If they can't even enforce the laws we have NOW (laws that would dramatically curb illegal immigration) they would NEVER be able to enforce this one.

I agree with illy here. We won't stop bank robbers by charging them with robbery AND theft, either. The immigrants that are here should stay for our own good,(weed out the drug-dealers and other common ciminals) but this sends a horrible message telling people to continue chancing it. The flow must be stopped by military force. Illegal immigrants are going to get hurt and probably die....if not the life we all know and love most definatley will. The shameless, corrupt Mexican govt...one of the wealthiest nations in the world, sitting on a virtual ocean of natural resources must be held responsible, as well.

I must confess that you are one of the hardest people to understand. All of your replies, if they aren't off topic, are contadictory and incredible hard to understand.

Take the 2 bolded statements for instance.

I can't tell what the hell you're saying...

Must be that liberal mind control machine again because I can understand exactly what he is trying to say.

First he is stating amnesty for the illegals already here.....

Troops on the borders to stop any others from entering

Again with the mindless, ignorant, stupid partisan attacks. It's sad you are an adult even sadder they let the likes of you in the military... but whatever.

Anyway, Amnesty for those here would send a horrible message to those that want to come later. In fact, it would be contadictory.

I say we just start looking for buisness that higher illegal immigrants and punish those buisnesses... like the laws already say. We could fix a lot of harm by simply doing that.

Look at it like a trade.

The other side (illegal criminal immigrants) has nothing to lose now.

Therefore, they have zero risk.

Strategically speaking, since when do you open a trade when the guy on the other side of your trade has no risk and has nothing to lose?

In short, you don't because you'll get your sweet buns kicked.

Right now illegal criminal immigrants have nothing to lose therefore they have ZERO motivation to comply with any border/immigration rules and laws - they win by doing nothing.

The US Government must inspire them somehow.  Inspire them, encourage them, motivate them.

That's the core equation to the trade structure problem.

But, how?

It is within the full means of the US government to set its own citizenship requirements and immigration laws.

When you create a scenario where the other side suddenly has something to lose substantially you balance the equation.

The illegal criminal aliens know they have nothing to lose by staying in the USA illegally, so that's what they're doing.

Essentially, they're saying, "Come get us, gringo, we ain't goin' anywhere."

Under this environment even if 1000 criminal aliens were found, arrested, processed and deported every day it would take several LIFETIMES to put a dent in the numbers of them now here in the USA illegally.  Most of them would live, grow old and die in the USA before ICE ever caught up with them.

Additionally, every man-hour ICE clocks in for doing its job comes directly out of legal US citizens' tax money - right out of our pockets.

That is a major losing scenario.

In essense, currently you've got up to or more than 20 million illegal criminal immigrants embedded in the US with zero motivation to comply with any US laws.

Structurally, that must change.  Most of the  illegal criminal aliens claim they are abiding by US laws.  Now, with this new law of auto-compliance, we can give them the opportunity to do exactly what they are claiming they are doing.

What else do we have to work with?

The denial of any and all future options, rights and potential to become legal US citizens is a powerful measure with long lasting effects and impact.

Right now they see themselves as citizens by (physical) occupation - they're occupying the USA, that makes them "citizens," legal or not is a mere detail the US government needs to work out.

However, the denial of any and all future options to become legal US citizens is a sobering realty.  It will send the message home.

With this new law you're giving them something to think over.

They either comply (if/when the law is passed)... or they permanently lose ALL future rights to US citizenship resulting in a permanent ban to EVER enter the US and to EVER apply for US citizenship.

Is it the perfect, magic bullet?  Perhaps not.  But, it's something.

Right now the US has nothing.

Passing this law gives it some teeth.

Thank you,

blueskys

 Blueskys look at it like this: (This is an metaphor BTW)
 Illegal employment is like a drug...illegal immigrants are coming into our neighborhood to get the drug...the illegal American employers are the drug dealers.
If you want to stop the situation, is it smarter to try and arrest each and every user who comes into the neighborhood? Or would it be smarter and more efficient to round up and punish the handful of dealers?
 Without the source of their needs the users have no reason to enter.

For conservatives illegal immegration is really, really, a huge problem.

For the rest of us, not so much.

It keeps food prices lower, for one thing.

I think ALL drugs should be legalized.

Principally, when I wrote the basis for this law, I hold firm beliefs, that is why I offered this solution.

1. South-of-the-borders, specifically Mexicans, are good people.

2. The time has come for them to change their mother nation, Mexico and the other sotb nations.

We live in a different era now.  This is not the 1950s when they first started coming over in masses.

They have been exploited in the USA and enslaved in the USD and oppressed in the USA.

As a whole, these people deserve positive change and owe it to themselves to make that change in their own nation(s) even if they are forced to.

We need to create a "legal circle" in which these good people can function, not just be seen as the "criminal aliens" they are.

This new law will give them view, dignity and immunity to being permanently banned from the USA.

I think it is strong motivator for them to "do the right thing" instead of just being seen as "criminal immigrants."   They're doing no good for themselves by being in the USA.

Mexico needs deep social and political change.  Their hiding out in the US as illegal criminals isn't going to bring that needed change about.

They gotta get outa here and change their own country to make it a better place.  That's the bottom line.

These people live in a world of hurt.  In the USA or sotb.  The changes need to occur for them to better their lives IN their own country first THEN worry about becoming legal US citizens IF they want to.

It isn't a problem for "the rest of us"? Try telling that to all of the workers who have been laid off due to illegal immigrants. I don't think you can say they were all conservatives.

You obviously haven't done the leg work on the issue if that's your opinion. But reguardless, your opinion makes it obivous that you're arrogant and selfish.

You make a pretty good case here. I've often thought that Mexico could be a much better place if their young and able weren't coming here. They have large problems in their government though.

Where I differ with you is to say screw Mexico. It's people will make a fine addition to our society. My solution would be to let them come in legally and tax them. I would greatly increases the numbers of those allowed to come in legally. If we give them workers protections and make sure that their labor is taxed like American labor it will take away some of their "advantage" over American workers in the job market.

More workers isn't necessarily a bad thing. They need places to live, food to eat, there's a lot of potential for economic growth. IMO, the focus should be on finding ways to help them learn English. If the goal is to stay here for a few years to make money and go home, I say they pay a higher tax rate and SS payment. Those who learn English and become citizens can pay normal rates.

A lot of people think this is a fairly crazy idea, but IMO it's much more realistic than most of the ideas I've heard to address the problem.

Blueskys, there is one problem with your policy:

They don't want to leave.

Thanks, I appreciate your opinion.
Oh, have any data on the number of legal US residents who have been laid off due to illegal immigrants?

You know, we take no reservation in helping Iraq - country across an ocean - build a stable government, so why can't we invest some time in Mexico?

Why can't we make their economy a little more conducive to their people instead of allowing US buisnesses to provoke illegal immigration with shady buisness practices?

I will look for this article I can find it..

Last Nov. NSI raided a local chicken factory and arrested with over 300 illegals working there. The factory over the next couple days put up signs and ran newspapers ads for employee's....The first day of hiring they had over 500 people show up, the next day over 300....These people were American citizens or here legally.....so your liberal rant of "Jobs Americans won't do" is BS......

Also, I happen to be in the grocery business and can say first hand you don't know shit about grocery/produce.....the market and weather are the two leading factors in prices. Not labor because labor cost stays about the same as the are paid by how much the pick not by the hour.

Stick with your conservative bashing, because facts isn't your good suit...........

Still waiting for data on the number of legal US residents who have been laid off due to illegal immigrants...

Look at it this way...The ship in which you are sailing has a GAPING hole in its hull. Do you plug the hole, or waterproof the inside of the ship?

You plug the whole and push out the water.

5uperChicken, that is actually a good analogy, unfourtantely the hole is too big and cumbersome while the tools you use to waterproof the inside of the ship just doesn't stick.

That's very unlikely that criminal immigrants will willingly give up and turn themselves in and then try to ban them from the country, even though they can just hop right over the border and get back into the country under a different name.

I guess we can re-arrange the deck chairs by going back to the government selling us out to the Chicoms, as opposed to the Mexicans, or we can strike up the band and enjoy the sunset.  :-\

I agree plugging the holes is an important thing to do. Securing the borders and having the resolve to punish illegal employers are the two best assalts on the problem.
 Arresting illegals and deporting them is the least effective of these three tactics. It's like shoveling shit against the tide.

But so called advocacy groups don't even want THAT as is illiustrated by the recent story of S.S. sending out reportds of no match on socials that a Fed Judge shut down.

No Oswald that's not what I am saying at all. I'm all for shoveling shit. But right now that is all we are doing and damned little of that. The laws are there to diminish the problem greatly. We just need to get tough on the SOURCE of the problem. American citizens who run business' with lazy or nefarious hiring practices are the greed driven root of the invasion. Until the federal government stops looking the other way and cracks down on them anything else will be a band aid,expensive and less than effective solution.

That ruling needs to be overturned and the powers of investigation returned to ICE. The real advocacy problem is advocating illegal hiring by letting it happen with impunity.

I agree with those sentiments entirely. The business owners who hire illegals should be arrested and their assets seized.

OswaldTheOsprey

I don't care what advocacy groups wants... They are wrong.
The bottom line is this will solve the issue.

Totino, there's an issue I see with your argument.

Do you think that an American based business should be allowed to be as profitable and successful as possible?  I assume your answer is yes.  Let's say that business is a grocery distributor.  Should the grocery distributor be allowed to buy food from any supplier, be it an American or foreign supplier?  I'll assume that your answer to that is yes, because as a conservative you likely support free trade.

Now, put your feet into the shoes of an American farmer.  Would you use only American laborers who demand higher wages, even if it meant that you would be selling food product at higher prices than competitors in other countries?  The answer to that could only be no.

In fact, illegal immigrants keep America's farmers competitive when they otherwise would not be.

If your concern is preserving American jobs, I'd suggest that you be more concerned about outsourcing technology jobs to China and India, which not only drive hardship on a productive segment of the American population, but also uses American dollars to grossly improve the technical aptitude in general unstable parts of the world.

Actually... I have a serious question that will probably ilicit a partisan responce, but I'm prepared to look over it for something more intelegently derived.

Why DON'T we punish the companies that hire illegal immigrants?

I mean seriously... why is it Washington can't just start ENFORCING the laws they write? A serious chunk of illegal immigration can be fixed by just using the laws we already have... but we don't enforce them.

Please tell me it's more than lobbyists. Please...

I do not support outsourcing, hiring of illegal immigrants, or anything of the like. Will you make more money by outsourcing or hiring illegals? Sure. But don't you realise you're ruining America and our economy by doing so? The reality is you only have the ability to do what you're doing because of the country you're in, people need to take that into account. I'm all for free trade within the US and other countries. But like anything else, there is a line you shouldn't cross..... You can still be a rich entrepreneur reguardless of who you hire.
As far as farmers and such. Plenty of people around here in NY (4th largest illegal population) don't hire illegal aliens. Are Americans willing to work for 3 dollars? Absolutely not. That's asinine. But you can still find Americans (especially young people) to work these jobs. Hell, if you want to, do like they did back in the day. More kids = free help :D.
You can say my position is unconservative if you like. But I have to disagree. It's a matter of sacrificing a little bit so that this country, which provides you with the opportunity to be an entrepreneur, can continue on for years to come.

Am I concerned about outsourcing? Absolutely. But at the moment our streets are infested with millions of criminals. That needs to be dealt with ASAP.

Because Bush is an idiot: He's on the amnesty wagon.

Thank you Tot well said (applause).

Coming from you, it doesn't sound so patisan I guess...

"Why DON'T we punish the companies that hire illegal immigrants?"

One-word answer? Clinton Appointed Judges.
They're smacking down immigration reform from sea to shining sea.


"In an expected result, US District Judge James Munley ruled against the city of Hazleton's Illegal Immigration Relief Act in the case of Lozano v. City of Hazleton. The case was over the constitutionality of an ordinance that would fine landlords who rented to illegal aliens and businesses that hire them."

"Whatever frustrations ... the city of Hazleton may feel about the current state of federal immigration enforcement, the nature of the political system in the United States prohibits the city from enacting ordinances that disrupt a carefully drawn federal statutory scheme," Munley wrote.

"Even if federal law did not conflict with Hazleton's measures, the city could not enact an ordinance that violates rights the Constitution guarantees to every person in the United States, whether legal resident or not," he added.

These are the same towns that have noise ordinances...the Constitution is not a human rights document,it is the law of our land. It does not extend to those who are not Americans.

As much as you'd like to blame Clinton (will it never end?), the judge simply ruled as any sane judge would rule that a local ordinance will never stand up against a federal law.
Who writes federal laws? Congress.

Blame Congress. Don't blame judges who rule that Federal law supercedes local laws. That question was settled almost  200 years ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCulloch_v._Maryland).

The question may have been settled 200 years ago, but not correctly, IMHO.

OswaldTheOsprey

I guess it's a combination of amnesty-loving judges and a lack of will to pursue the offending companies (be it cause of there lobbiests in Congress or the resulting blow to the economy or losing the Hispanic vote or...). And I guess it doesn't help when the president himself is a fan of amnesty.

You can't blame judges persay. Congress needs to make laws about this. The federal government as led by Bush easily has the power to ENFORCE our current laws. They are choosing not to (although I do believe short-staffing plays a small role).

Which law? What part of the Constitution? Why not consult Hazelton, Pa.?

Shameless, Activist Judge. Apply the Constitution to illegals? Paradox. Does not compute. If I get an undocumented car into my garage, shouldn't they have to licence and register it, and let me drive it? what if I just drive off in yours? I'm not stealing it, I just interpret it as mine.