IAP Political Forum

I find it interesting that there are 1000's of brands of Christianity and the range of beliefs within them varies greatly. There is everything from Fundi Christians that believe every word in the bible is the inspired word of God, to "Christians" that don't even believe Jesus was a historical figure. And of course they all think they know the truth.

You'd think God would have made it a little more clear what he wanted us to believe considering if we don't he's going to send us to hell? It's almost as if the Buybull was made up by men.  :o God had a second chance to clear things up when he sent himself down here to "die" for our sins. All he did was make things more confusing.

Shit, Christians can't even agree on what the ten commandments command.

So what do Christians agree on if anything? The buybull is a book with words in it? How can you guys expect people to buy into this shit when you all can't even agree on the basics?

If they all agreed on one thing, there would only be one brand of christianity.

Delta might want to check that out too.



Which group is this?

Wait, if I read this board then I must conclude that all Christians believe the exact same thing and it is atheists that are the beautiful unique flowers... now I'm confused... I wish the defectives on this board were consistent...

You know, Zuk once tried to show that Communism had a doctrine of killing people who didn't accept the system (he showed some vague and minor phrase).

Anyhow, considering the "bible" of communism wasn't written by god, you have to wonder if the words had that much wieght.

But Jesus, on the other hand, believed to be God by many (most?) Xians, had some very choice things to say of people who wouldn't accept the system. Death. Eternal, unrelenting pain and torture.

"Thou shall not suffer a witch to live"
"Kill false prophets"
"unbelivers will be tortured for eternity"

The weight of his words are enough that people are willing to accept that he walked on water, that all the animals in the world were shuffled onto a boat, that he was born of a virgin.

If people are irrational enough to accpt those lies, it is no wonder that Xians have killed and will continue to do so. It seems to me, that in between the calls for peace, they call for blood. (no doubt, they want people to treat them peacfully, while they kill the infidels).

in fact, God (aka Jesus) even PROMISES blood, death and destruction.


Is this what most Xians believe? It is the doctrine of the Bible. You can't be Xian without accepting the Bible and Jesus.

Uncivil, derogatory, inflammatory and posts not worthy of debate split to Inferno.

D9 first of all you cannot lump all people who believe in a God into the category of a Christian.

Secondly I agree that the bible has been interpreted by man, thus creating flaws in it.  I would be ignorant to not believe that. 

I think it would be safe to say that ALL who believe in a God believe in prayer and faith.

Being an optimist I must say that for me I would hope that it wouldn't matter so much on judgment day who you thought God to be, I would hope that there would be an opportunity to chose and to believe.  If all I have heard about God is to be true then this certainly could be an option.

But really I just don't know, and I don't know how to know. 

I believe in God, and Jesus, I believe in the concept of the Bible and that it's mostly true.  I also believe that I must have faith to see more than there is and that I must pray to achieve a greater understanding.

I still have my questions and my doubts and I still am not impressed with what I perceive man has done to it.

I might add: D9, there aren't 1000's of brands of xianity, there are TENS OF THOUSANDS (over 30,000 and counting).  there are also the ones that were violently suppressed by other so-called 'orthodoxed' (or 'true') churches.  for example, the gnostic texts are as valid as the ones that were voted into the bible, but the more powerful churches were able to suppress these texts and force them into hiding by branding the gnostics as heretics and themselves as spokesmen for god. thus is the birth of the catholic church.
btw, the gnostic texts are no more or less reliable than the other gospels. one must apply equal skepticism to all - but the gnostic texts don't mention a bodily resurrection (and many died as martyrs).
if you have two claims you need to consider the likelihood of both.

it is more likely, though highly improbable, that Jesus had a twin brother than that he rose from the dead. it is even MORE likely that he died and rose SYMBOLICALLY from the dead.

Isn't this like saying there are tens of thousands of brands of Coca Cola since no two people perceive the flavor quite the same?  Isn't it true that Christians are those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and the differences are in perception about what Christ's teaching are?




Really?  They are corroborated by historians of the time with direct lines back to the writers?


You have to compare the evidence for both to see which evidence is stronger.  In the case of the gnostic text, we can't find any corroborating evidence.  We have nothing but the text itself.


I am curious what numbers you apply to conclude these likelihoods.  What logic are you using?  Is this your subjective intuition or is this the way you apply your brand of "reason"?

This is untrue. You stated all people who believe in a God believe in prayer and faith. Well I believe in the existence of a God and do not believe in prayer or faith (faith in the way it was used in the sentence.) Most other deists would probably agree with me on this point. Unfortunately (though it is to no fault of your own) I fear that religion has hijacked the concept of God and any time God is ever used it is never used in any other way other then in a religious sense which angers me greatly.

Imagine how it angers me and I'm an Atheist.  The very fact that we're even talking about "God" pisses me off.  I'm not interested in being part of anyones make believe magic world.  It's 2007 for fucks sake. 

my guess is that you D9 never had children.... and if you did they obviously thought that they were bad b/c they never got a visit from the tooth fairy, the easter bunny or santa claus, I am also guessing they never got to go trick or treating either.  *sigh* or maybe just maybe you weren't allowed to as a child.

Either way you're bitter about Christianity and think it's make believe, maybe you're right though, just maybe it is all make believe and all made up but really, I don't push my beliefs down your throat nearly as much as you try to throw yours at me.

I'm not pushing my "beliefs" down your throat.  You are free to believe anything you like.  I'm not threatening you in any way.   You are free to skip over my posts. No one is forcing you to read them.   

Its the Christians who are pushing their beliefs down peoples throats.  They have a long history of it and you know it.  In god we trust on the money, 
Ten commandments in government buildings.   
One nation under god in the pledge. 
Trying to overturn R v W. 
Against stem cell funding.
Advocating for ID to be taught in science class.
Against right to die. 
Showing your religious symbols all over the place. 
Missionaries traveling our country and the world trying to convert whoever they can.
Billions spent on influencing political leaders.
A massive Christian  TV and radio network.

Those are just things off the top of my head.  I haven't even touched on Christianitys horrible past. Think where science would be today if you guys hadn't screwed everything up for 700 years.

Every time I turn around I hear or see something having to do with Christianity.   It is huge in this country.  Much of it can be ignored but I shouldn't have to put so much effort into trying to avoid it. 

You still going to try and tell me how I'm forcing my beliefs on you?

All the shit-talking is a little much, IMO, but the basic concept of the thread isn't bad.

I've seen crazy, and sane brands of Christianity.

When I was young, my mother took us to a "non-denominational" (read:fundamentalist) baptist church. The church was independent, and somewhat backwards. I attended a book burning at the age of six. The texts being burned were NIV, NKJ and other Bibles beside the King James (OG in the hizzy!), as well as some children's picture books (based on that abominable NIV) and your garden variety *heretical* novels (anything that didn't praise the name of god on every other page). Women were banned from playing volleyball (not supposed to be wearing pants, or shorts, can't jump up and down in a skirt).

The methodist church where my father's mother played piano was quite sane though. They had some nice church picnics, and the sermons gave me the impression that the people there were much more happy about their faith than the book-burners.

The idea that I took away from that experience is that I don't have any right to tell someone what is proper to hold as beliefs, or what to call themselves. Based on chain of events that led to two church split-ups that led us to the fundamentalists, I would say it is a bad thing to be ideologically rigid.

I do not call myself a Christian. I think the teachings of Jesus Christ are relevant and very useful to a large degree, and I see great benefit that can come from heeding them. I do not believe in a virgin birth and I do not believe that Jesus Christ was the son of god any more than I am (under the concept of "god" that makes sense to me). On a very basic level, I would assert that no-one has the right to dictate to someone else what they need to believe to be considered a Christian.

The way I define it though, I am not. Belief in the divinity of JC and the resurrection story, etc were what I learned as the cornerstones of the faith. That, and acceptance of JC was what I was taught all Christians agree on.

D9 I can provide just as many if not more instances of agnostic or atheist influence on a society.  All I have to do is turn on a television, computer or go to a theater and there I can see so much against God and the bible.  It goes both ways.

But really how do you justify putting all who believe into one category, how can you be so bias and racist to assume that all who believe are the same.  You claim to hate christianity yet you out of everyone spend more time in here pouring through the posts and spewing crap towards those who believe.

You have no idea who any of us are, you see we believe and you just spit your words at us, and yell that we're corrupting and condemning you and your right to chose and your beliefs.  You have no idea.  Yet you hate, you hate so much.

If there's so much influence of atheists, then why are they the most hated, distrusted minority, even lower than Muslims? Why do I not have an atheist television network, while Christians have dozens?

speak for yourself I am Canadian eh... we are the most multicultural country in the world......  we have zero christian radio stations and I think maybe 1 christian tv station.

Truth be told I don't hate atheist or agnostics or those who believe differently than I, for who am I to judge?  who am I to think that I know so much and know better?  I am not, yet I hate being lumped into a category b/c you don't know me... you just know that I believe that there is something out there that created us and this world.  And you judge me and my choice to believe that.  It hurts b/c you didn't take the time to get to know me.

And you put up walls of anger and frustration and make claims about who you think I am and what you think I will do. I am not like that.  I have enough questions and concerns of my own, I have enough doubts and a bit of knowledge to think that maybe just maybe you're on to something and maybe just maybe you have it right.

Also I have fear for those who ask questions and get information and then scoff at it.  I have fear that if there really is a god (I  do believe there to be one) then what happens to me if I shared info with someone and it was wrong or if I didn't do it right and now that person has knowledge.  That freaks me out to be honest.  The bible states we will be judged on what we know.  Well if we know about God and there is a God and we chose to deny him then what??? really then what?  Where does it put everyone that learned and turned their back, and where does that put me if I played a part in that?  That scares me. 

But then if God is full of mercy and grace and can redeem all things... that is if there is a God then we should all be good right? 

I suppose we will never know for certain until the day comes and we leave this earth.

Well I think in this particular case his indignation for Christianity can be fully justified, for that matter all indignation towards Christianity can be justified. Why do you feel the need to inveigh against his stance regarding religion anymore than you do for his stance regarding politics? You seem to be giving religion an abnormally thick wall of respect in which does not deserve.   


People are able to predicate there judgments based on what you believe, If I were to believe that massacring thousands of people would help me achieve salvation then you would come to the logical conclusion that I am an insidious person. What I am saying is that if your are susceptible to a particular set of beliefs then it may be easier to make a judgment based on that.

   You then try to rationalize you beliefs based on Pascal’s wager, which is such a ridiculously outdated argument that I’m not even going to consider it. 

Two way street.

If you feel someone is trying to "force" their belief on you...ignore and walk away.


Welcome to America...democracy in action...where decisions are made in the ballot box....don't like the concept of representative democracy?

I guess you could always move.

In a private survey conducted in 2001, 76.7 percent of American adults identified themselves as Christian, down from 86.4 percent in 1990.-WiKi

Wow. 3 out of 4 are Christian.


If you advocate that 3 out of 4 Americans are to disavow their faith and how they believe government should have the hand of God upon it, then yes.

They don't have to disavow their faith. It would just be nice if they could keep it to themselves rather than desperatly trying to gain power and control. This country wasn't set up to be a "Christian nation".  Did you notice that the constitution doesn't even mention "God"? 

What "group" or "affiliation" or "ideology" IS NOT "desperatly trying to gain power and control" in American politics?

I do not believe your issue is with groups, affiliations and ideologies "desperatly trying to gain power and control"...it's just that Christians do a better job at it than your "group", "affiliation" and "ideology"


It wasn't set up to expunge God from our society either.

The Constitution makes no mention of lots of things....since there is no specific reference to Gay Rights, should we ignore them?....anyway...many founding documents refer to a "Creator" or "God"...they just insert those words as "fluff?"...or did they believe what they wrote?

The constitution doesn't need to mention gay rights. It says all men were created equal. It's only an issue because religious wackos want it to be. Once again, Christians forcing their beliefs on everyone else.

We could argue all day about what the founding fathers thought about God.  This thread is supposed to be about what Christians agree on. Like I pointed out before, most of them agree that gays are not equal. Thats the club you're in buddy.

I see you refer to the original content of the Constitution.

What about this from Article I Section II:

Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.

Who was 3/5ths a person?  Sound equal to you?

What about Women...could they vote?  Sound equal to you?

Seems when this was written, all men WEREN'T equal.

Somehow the Constitution fixed it's oversight of rights conferred to certain groups...and all but ignores others, doesn't it?


Your right, we could...but something even you cannot dispute is that mentioning Him in founding documents must have meant something to them or else why mention Him at all?


You make it sound like you cannot be pro-choice and be Republican...or anti-gay marriage and be Democrat...you REALLY believe that?

You're right about not all men being equal. The Christians used the buybul to justify the ownership of slaves. After all, Jesus didn't have a problem with it. He could have done and said all sorts of things to try and stop slavery. He did nothing. This is a guy who you worship, sad.

It was mostly Christian conservatives that tried to keep Women from voting. Read your history. The buybul was written by men to give men more power. Anyone who can read can understand that.

It was and mostly still is Christian conservatives who are racists. Take a drive through the south some time. Racism is alive and well with Christians leading the way.

Thats the club you're in buddy. Your brothers in Christ. I would never join a group with such a horrible past, I'm better than that.

What a load of crap.

Because some who claim to be Christian are bigot, you think that makes you somehow better than Patton and other Christians. Why should Patton answer for bigoted people he's never met, somewhere in the south.

TBH, I find your dogmatic us vs them mentality to be just as corrosive and divisive as anything I've seen from Christians. You should check out that church I used to go to. You all could have a great time burning bibles together.

Classic D9.

Treat him like an adult and he resorts to insults and misrepresentation of facts.


Stark contradiction to what you stated earlier.


Perhaps you can demonstrate this?


Seems He had more important things to do with the limited time he had...tell me how one man stands against all of Rome?



Oh...I wonder why many think it was about the history of the Jewish people and how to obtain salvation...


You should count the votes on the Civil Rights Act sometime.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That has got to be the most pathetic Christian excuse I've ever heard. Absolutely f'ing pathetic.

Somehow I think GOD could have found time to deal with the slave issue.

I guess kicking the money lenders out of the house of god was a better use of time than trying to stop slavery.  :laugh: :laugh: Those damn money lenders!!! Who cares about humans owning humans.

Your excuse is lame on so many levels. Maybe when God was talking to Paul during one of his personal revelations, he could have mentioned something about owning humans? I guess that would have been too much for God. Too many other things to talk about. Important stuff like how to worship him.

You are pathetic. Look at what ridiculous excuses you'll make for your hero savior.

I'm sorry you seem confused, befuddled and bewildered about the purpose of Christ on Earth...I noticed you zero in on slavery and money lending...I'm surprised you didn't mention eradicating all disease, ending all war, dispensing with prostitution and destroying gay bath houses....I guess there was alot He didn't do with His time here.

I will say this once....if you cannot remain an adult when responding, you can choose to not reply, if you continue with this behavior...you can just read this forum and lose the ability to post.

At NO MOMENT did I EVER insult or degrade your belief or lack thereof.

If you have a question about what civility is, read the sticky.

Thinking you can treat ANYONE this way with no consequence is a mistake.

Perhaps if you approached the topic with respect instead of putting 12 laughing faces on the thing and calling it pathetic they might listen to what you have to say. But insulting them and such will only further the frustration.

Now I think its a bit ridiculous as well, I mean if Jesus was the son of God you think he would've preached about many things (slavery, world hunger, moral issues, quantum mechanics) and solved more problems. Their are many things about christian beliefs that make me angry as well, but seriously this ranting isn't the way to approach it.