IAP Political Forum

I always find it interesting to wander into the P&R forum, so many varying people and points of view, so much passion.  We're so much alike in so many ways as we debate the existence or lack there of, of a God.

Yes it's comical in some ways as it always seems to boil down to

God ~ as in the Christian version of God
Agnostic & 
Atheism

we don't seem to spend much time discussing other religions, it's always where you sit in the field.

Are you in God's court, or the Atheism court OR are you on the fence meaning you haven't decided but really you have because by not deciding there is a God it means you have chosen the other camp, whether you believe it or not. 


And for what it's worth it NEVER EVER EVER seems to matter what the topic title is as it will always be the same people and it will always boil down to the same thing.  A new spin of words but essentially they are the same.

So really then if it's always the same then why the debate?  Have you found some new information?  Are you wanting new information?  hhhmmm that would mean you would actually be looking for knowledge, yet that I have hardly seen in these parts.  It's all seems to boil down to your freedom of speech.  It all boils down to what you think you need to say to back your stance (it doesn't matter what camp you belong to as you're all the same).  Like you have a right to share even when people don't want that they are looking for something new.

I have to wonder if ever someone will actually sit back and take in what they read, meditate on it for a bit before they spew their pre recorded response.  I some how doubt this.  I so wish that we as a mature and educated people would take in what others have to say and consider it before they actually react.

Just my thought.  So why are you here I ask?  Is it for knowledge and understanding or is it for your right to share whatever you please regardless of what others have to say about it?

Oh no Tara, haven't you read what that new kid wrote?  There is no such thing as agnosticism.  And he even knows how pissed I am that he is correct!!

I think this is a pretty apt description for some of the political forums as well as P & R.

I generally find that many of the posters post to try and prove a point, argue with the opposition view, or try and win a debate and claim a trophy.

For me, all of the above, has limited appeal and limited value. In fact none at all.

I post, because I value many of the posters opinions here, many of which have specialist knowledge, and I try and use their view, or their information, or the way they look at things, to improve my knowledge, and to improve myself as a person.

Sorry, if this is a fairly generic answer, not specific to the P & R section. But I think my answer can relate to the P & R section as well.

 

Just acouple points:
>Any forum that is open for anyone and any POV, will contain both wheat and chaff so to speak.  You have to go through alot af chaff to reach any wheat, sadly.
>Any time a human expresses himself, a part of what he seeks is validation.  That applies to you, me and anyone in between.  For some that's validation as a rebel or iconoclast, for others as conventional, or liberal, or radical, or as I read more and more postings, nutcase.
>Most people are not ready to actively think to form an opinion, so they spout the responses their "training" (upbringing and experience) avail to them, rather than any creative insight.  That's why it is so easy to pigeonhole one another.  I am gaining insights thru these that I wouldn't have had otherwise and I find that of great value to me, and I suspect that you do as well, or you would have stopped writing here.  Your question, and many others I've encountered, do make one think, and formulate a statement of belief.  That's a good thing.  For some posters it seems like it's just a reason not to think but to rant.
>One of things you seem to have addressed is the lack of a true examination of the rationale behind what one has said or believed in.  That's probably true.  But it's also true that traditions and customs can be adopted in a benevolent way as a means of getting through your day, without being turned over and over for justification.  In other words, I say "hello" to the people I meet without needing to understand that I've said it so they are not hostile.  People follow religious rituals with almost the same automatic response.  Certainly, many people find comfort in religion.  That triggers a negative response in many who don't share that religion, including atheists presumably without an ax to grind.  If you're helped by worshipping fire, light up.  I guess the other point is that we have an experience as mankind that collectively unites us, but as a man individually collides with the guy next to us.  The things that make you, you, are different from the things that make me, me.  But all of this is what makes mankind, mankind.  So we posit these questions in each life that someone sitting at the mouth of a cave came up with, only now in this generation our experinces don't resonate with the rhythms and comprehension of nature.  So our questions are newly relevant, and we look for Buddha on the internet instead of under the banyan.

*Applaud.* Thanks for posting what obviously needs to be said.

I think I saw Abraxas and many others say the same thing over and over and over and over...

And so others consitently try to challenge over and over and over and over...

I learned that if a thread has God, Agnosticism, Athiesm or Theism in the title, it is not worth reading.  It's the same crap over and over and over and over and over...

I am here to learn.  Sometimes people on the P&R get so caught up in their convictions it's ridiculous trying to pontificate whether if the poster really understood your post or not.  Personally, I subject myself more to Buddhist teachings because it allows for one fundamental principle: an open mind begets understanding which is the precusor for embracing change.  Not embracing change is why we fight, hate, anger, disgust... 

The fundamental reason for why we suffer.

I refuse to validate that.


That's true.  Sometimes a forum can get a critical mass of wheat so that the chaff becomes a less than ordinary obstacle.

What do you do if someone keeps taking a grumpy in the wheat?  It is a universal problem of moderation to strike a balance between killing the fun that draws people and letting defectives have the run of the place.

I would switch metaphors here to that of a bar and bouncer.  If a bar gains a reputation for tolerating undesirables, it will both draw more undesirables and fewer of the patrons it would have preferred.

Yes BD I did happen to read that.  It was actually part of my inspiration for this thread.

we have some newbies around these parts and well nothing seems to be new or fresh or even relevant anymore.  It seems like no one is free to believe what they believe without having something else crammed down their throats.

I am always reminded of a conversation within a thread at IAP 1.0 that Barnes and I had.  We each have very different ideas yet we walked away with greater understanding and respect for one another.  It was very refreshing for the P&R section.

I guess I just need something refreshing, something new that is all I suppose.

Yes this was something that had to be said.  *sigh* I must admit that my initial draw to IAP was the P&R section.  Now a days though you can't get a thought or a word out without someone telling you it's wrong because they believe something else.  It's all about religion now, the philosophy seems to have vanished.  *sigh*

You obviously had quite an impact on him ;)

Tara, if you want people to have conversations you need to get rid of the trolls.  It's not that hard of a concept.

trolls yes yes.... maybe we should start a troll thread in the inferno ;)  (did I just type that?)

and JIMP regardless of how Barnes is with you I have always gotten a great deal of respect from him :P

Keep telling yourself that :)

That assumes a bit much.

IAP affords any window licking asshat with a keyboard an avenue to spew drivel.


I'm living proof of that.

now now 2.DOH you are a lot of things..... but I don't think I would go so far as to call you a window licking asshat..... 

can I for a moment live in my la la land and believe as I look through my rose coloured glasses that there are educated people here?

I appreciate that, Tara.

While I may lack Barney's humility, D9's incisive wit, chemart's integrity , zuk's warmth,
and JIMP's sense of style & rugged good looks, I do have a realistic grasp of
my limitations.

It's like watching a game. The two teams involved are trying to prove to each other that they are right, silently giving themselves the win in specific threads. And the same two teams have to be involved in every single thread.

I seriously doubt any of the regulars are looking for anything other than a fight.

Thanks 2.doh, now please stock licking the windows at my house while you admire my rugged good looks and matching socks. :D

Applaud for that b/c you made me laugh.....

To be honest Targo, part of the philosophy section transferred to the lobby over a year ago.

The lobby seems to have a wider readership and is less intense.You can state your view there without being hit with a hammer.

I better get over there and do something about that.   :laugh:

yah I know....

but it's more 'playful' there and not quite so deep there.  It's good and fun and great for building community

I'm glad you guys have that section. 

Sections like this one should be reserved for people who want to do battle.   

D9 the P&R section of IAP is not for doing battle.  Actually none of IAP is for battling.  It's a forum built for discussions.  Battling and fighting is against our posting rules and guidelines and you know that D9 so if that is something you would like to do here I can happily show you the door.



hhhmmm if people really want a place for 'fight club' they can ask chovy if that is something he would be willing to add to high society.   

I find there is a lot of serious debating going on though in many of the threads.

A lot of serious mass debating.

No wonder the forum has so many stickies  :P


Seriously, the topic of religion is an individual one and a personal one. I can't see the point of attacking someone elses belief or trying to change their mind. The whole thing seems pointless to me. As long as people arn't doing harm to others, what does it matter what people believe in.  :)

Oh yeah?

WTF is that supposed to mean?

The regulars of P&R.

Knowledge. Cause knowledge is power!
(http://www.postdiluvian.org/~gilly/Schoolhouse_Rock/pix/rocky.gif)

(http://www.billsaddiction.com/images/smilies/jam.gif)

Yes you're right there is power in knowledge, yet I am certain that you are one of the few that come in here specifically looking for it.

Indeed.  The conversation will assume the standard that the moderators tolerate.  If this back and forth is accepted that is what you will get.  I understand complaints from participants.  I don't get it that an administrator would make such a complaint.

If you want broad and rounded free flowing conversation, then you might insist the participants contribute the same and escort out those who misbehave.  It is easy to see who those are as their Karma scores are generally quite low.

(http://my.opera.com/Eddie_Lopez/homes/blog/The_More_You_Know.jpg)

What's the purpose of any debate tara?

Should we just close down IAP because people are debating rather than 'meditating' on other people's POV?

For me, the purpose of debating here is to test my beliefs against other people's ideas as well as just for the sake of debating.

the purpose of a debate is to state your facts and make them believable (I suck at debating)

I think a healthy debate is good.  Yet here there is nothing healthy about the debate b/c they are not debating facts they are attacking ideas.  If they want to debate then good on you, but where is a good debate here?  Specifically here in the P&R forum.

Where are the facts to back your claims? 

IamMe I like your reasoning for as to why you debate or share or whatever. 

Debates aren't always about facts. The best ones are always about ideas.


My claim? What's my claim? that there's no evidence to support the existence of God. The evidence would be the absence of evidence.


Thanks.

oh sorry my comment about facts wasn't directed at you it was directed at this forum (P&R specific)

I was just frustrated with it all.


I suppose you're correct in your debate of ideas and of course P&R would be more so a debate of ideas.

And what happens when someone says their ideas are actually facts and the only facts acceptable?

Edited-Patton

Edited-Patton

Then you have a religion.

Ya I know. 

then I personally would want to have proof inorder to back these so called facts

What about faith?

can you have facts for faith?  there are no facts for love, it's just a feeling.  Truth is we all have faith, where we chose to use and direct our faith is a different story.  But when I drive I have faith that those in the other lane aren't gonna cross over the double yellow and hit me.  I have faith that when I am out walking someone isn't gonna run me over.

But can I really base my beliefs on faith and faith alone?  By that logic one could potentially state that those who are atheist or agnostic also have a level of faith to believe what they would.

Or are you saying that faith is only for those that believe that there is a God and a bible and Jesus?

For more on "beliefs"...I would refer you to the "Atheism: the real beef" thread.

there are some people who feel change is heresy. that change is evil. some people feel that a 2000 year old book tells them that u are a mouthpiece for Satan when u suggest we open our minds to anything but their version of god.

try having a conversation with them and see if u can have a fruitful end to it.