IAP Political Forum

I ran across this (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsible_drug_use"), and found it interesting. It is the Repsonsible Drug Use Oath.



What do you all think about this, and the philosophical ideas behind drug use?

Unfortunately when on drugs, this whole oath goes out the window.

I am not going to offer any rationalizations as to what "responsible" drug use is.  The only philosophy I have towards drugs themselves is that they work.

Got pain? Take some aspirin.  Runny nose? Take some syrup.  Want some Euphoria?  Smoke some pot.  Want to knock out your inhibitions? Drink some whiskey.  Want to expand your mind? Take some acid or some mushrooms.  Want to feel like a rock star? Snort some coke.

Whether or not your drug use causes any implications on others, is only determinate of the person who takes them.  Unfortunately, most who do use, are not the ones who care about their implications on others even though when sober they do.  It's the trade-off you end up with.  I wish most who do use, did have the rationalizations like your oath that could help end the most idiotic political struggle of our time: the war on drugs.

You're right, most drug users aren't the responsible ones. This more than likely stems from the fact that people grow up with "just say no" and are told forever that drugs are bad. It's a lot harder to teach responsibility, so they teach prohibition instead.

I think education promotes responsibility.  If it wasn't for my own curiosity looking on http://www.erowid.org/ (http://www.erowid.org/) I probably would have been screwed although it may have fueled my exploration but that was my choice.   

Criminalizing it is not the answer.  Teaching people about it is.  I remember one of the requirements in my health class was that a student had to go to an AA and NA meeting.  Not that I am advocating that kind of treatment but it is definitely a grim look into where people end up when they loose their inability to make responsible decisions. 

Instead of using the money to fight street crime caused by criminalization, it could be used on implementing better drug and sex education.  The best thing everyone needs to realize is that most people who are responsible know that drugs are not for them and I would conclude that would be the majority of people in the U.S.  So even if it is legal, no responsible person would rush to the store and demand heroine.  Its not the fear of prosecution, its the fear of irresponsibility.

I just responsibly smoked some weed.

I love weed, but alas, have not smoked for some time. I miss it like an amputee misses his limb....  :-(

In my opinion its way better than alcohol.  Its one of the best drugs period.

If you can't figure out a way to buy some, you should grow. 

The philosophical issues surrounding drug use are essentially a matter of ethics.  When under the infuence of 'recreational drugs' (I exclude palliative and therapeutic drugs from all the following), one loses ones normal values.  This has effects in two areas - personal and societal.

The societal effects range from the innocuous but inconvenient to the downright dangerous. (For the purposes of this post, I will have in mind the worst effects of drugs - just to make the points a bit more sharp).  If you believe that your contribution to society is to be disruptive in some way (ANY way, since you probably can't predict the way your distorted persona will act) then you are obviously 'disrespecting' your society.  But given the unfocused, unpredictable nature of your influenced actions, that 'disrespect' has no defence.  Anti-apartheid campaigners did to resort to drugs to combat the evil, they took organised action.  Your 'personal statement of protest' in resorting to mind altering drugs is blind unthinking rejection.  Why be surprised that your society may frown upon it?  Cue discussion of the relationship between individual and society.

From a personal standpoint, messing with your head can be a way of handling peaks of debilitating emotion.  But the obvious thing to do is to work to come to terms with the emotional problems in a rational way.  Self- or group-induced emotion is ersatz and valueless - emotions serve an evolutionary purpose, artificial ones are empty.

Gojira's point "Unfortunately when on drugs, this whole oath goes out the window" is deep.  It obviously points out the paradoxical nature of the 'oath'.  But it draws attention to the fact that a drug user is denying his own character - he is trying to change it, maybe temporarily maybe seeking a long term 'escape'.

This could lead us to a further question that borders the 'Free Will' debate (NO MORE please).  Trying to stay out of that trench warfare, put it another way - is the addicted personality to be judged in the same way as a 'normal' personality.

My own view (as someone who is currently quite probably alcohol dependent - I'm not claiming moral high ground) is that you deserve to treated with all the revenge, retribution and disdain that your actions would warrant if you performed them in your uninfluenced life. 

Individually: none of your business.

Societal: not applicable unless said drugs are being done in public. As you said and Gojira said, the oath only goes out the window while on the drug. If the drug is being done at home, under the right circumstances, then there is no problem.

Plus, I'm not sure the oath isn't valid while under the influence. The whole point is to use responsibly, which means not to take beyond what you can handle. For example, not taking 50 hits of acid.

Hi wigs

I know you have a very specific and focused interest here, but I was trying to get to the bigger picture.  And I'm still considering the extremes here....

"Individually: none of your business."  What is the principle you are invoking behind this?  If you saw someone, say, frenziedly mutilating themselves - would you just shrug and say 'O well, none of my business'.   If you saw someone just sitting in total depression staring at a wall while they dehydrated and starved 'O well, none of my business'. 

I made a distinction between private and public use with the society/individual distinction.  But did suggest a discussion of the relationship between the two would be useful.

'Not taking 50 hits of acid'....  Uh huh. So you can guarantee a level of control that would stop you doing that after the first?

Usually I don't like 'slippery slope' arguments.  But when dealing with mind-altering stuff I am inclined to believe that they have some more power.  This is because SS arguments are usually about public matters, and the mass of humanity can usually be counted on not to go to far to an extreme (usually, not always).  Individuals, however, have no more than their own mental resources, which are unreliable at the best of times, and more so when under the influence.

Hey, you make that your business. Plus, those are consequences of irresponsible drug use.


It's called being responsible. I can snort a few lines of coke, and just be done with it. If I couldn't, I wouldn't buy more than two lines. People that take drugs to get fucked up are different than those who just want to chill or have a good time every once and a while, and a lot different than the mind expanders.

weed is "better" than alcohol,,, because it's stronger and it's side effects are paranoia instead of vomiting and head aches... person taking drugs is escaping reality hence he/she cannot deal with personal life which is irresponsible by it's own...

now kids,,, i've used to do some of these and look what happened to me,,, ppl have no idea what i'm one about,,, my typing alike serial killer trademark and my nickname is taken from some pedobear fanboy,,,

No one has overdosed on Marijuana.  You never hear "paranoid sicophant pothead" kills friends because he thought they were going to eat him.  It is the most benign drug out there.

Paranoia is a side-effect caused by the user's own interpretations and has nothign to do with the drug itself.  However consider this a good thing as it can be a personal deterrent for many.   


They only escpae reality for a while.  The real abusers are those who try to escape indefinately but drug use is not the cause of the escape it is the person's own habitual addiction of "escaping."  People who overeat or masterbate too much conduct themselves on the same ramifications of escapism.


It was you choice to become all screwey.  I like screwey, but like I said, it was your choice. 

I wouldn't say its stronger.  Some bad strains can cause paranoia in some people. I smoke the finest weed on that planet. No paranoia.


For some people that is true. The same sort of thing can be said for lots of things like guys that spend all their time fishing or playing golf.

show me guy who could not stop fishing or playing golf and  i will show you some few hundred thousand those guys who couldn't not escape coke

Once again, that is talking about irresponsible drug use. Not what I'm talking about.

wasn't talking to you

But it means nothing concerning the topic of the thread, which is about responsible drug use.

14, this is a public forum. your posts are fair game for anyone. If you want to keep it secret, PM the person.

You are saying 'drug use', but what you mean is 'recreational and sometimes illegal drug use' because you're talking about having a good time with substances, my guess is you're not talking about prescription drugs for mood altering like Xanex or Prozac.

With some drugs, taking any at all is irresponsible, like Methamphetamine (especially the kind made in a toilet), Heroine, PCP, ecstacy that you cannot be sure is really ecstacy, etc...

For alcohol, it's sometimes difficult for an abuser (whose personality does a 180 degree turn after drinking) or alcoholic who cannot stop after one drink to even realize they have a problem. Denial is the easiest choice for most people.

With pot, yes it is a somewhat benign drug with great benefits and should be legalized for very sick people, especially those with upset stomache, but there are some problems with it, too, mainly how long it stays in your system and how it impairs your ability to do certain things because of how it slows your reaction time.

So I suppose my point is it depends on the drug and the level of denial in the person using, which varies.

relax i'm not Jesus,,, my remark was only because i was sure Satanists think i'm speaking to him,,, and not some try to shut him up...

You're a strange little person in a strange little world.

And this topic needs some major clarification. There is no fine line between responsible drug use and irresponsible drug use, responsible and irresponsible are too subjective to be used meaningfully in a discussion of this nature. Secondly, as 2112 pointed out, it is 'irresponsible' to take some drugs no matter the environment they are taken in or the motivation one has for taking the drug.

As to Gojira's comment that this oath goes out of the mind of the user when he is on 'drugs', you REALLY need to clarify 'drugs' in this statement. Sure, when on a high dose of LSD one is not likely to remember the oath and frankly, not even care about it, but to claim that the average marijuana smoker cannot control their habit because they are inhibited is ludicrous. Just because a drug is mind altering, does not mean it is mind numbing.  :police:

You can't simply "teach" someone responsibility. You have to learn by doing. And it wouldn't be a good idea to let kids "learn from doing" with drugs. You'd just end up with a bunch of ODs.

The ability to "teach responsibility" would solve alot of issues currently going on with American culture/society (IE: Bastard children). But it simply isn't possible.

My comment was about the responsibility of recreational drug use.  That is, any drug that is used for purposes that exceed its intended use for recreational purposes. 

Drawing this line with hard drugs is difficult.  For medicinal drugs it's easy. 

People take Vicadin for its intended purpose; to relive physical pain.  When someone decides to step over the line and take the drug for purposes other than physical pain, dependence begins.  But that didn't stop me from convincing my hamstring broken friend to give me a few pills for the fun of it.  If you need to know, I am not addicted to Vicadin but I did exceed its intended use for recreational purposes and in that instance I -- if you could entertain BBW's thought -- that I was responsible. 

In relation to your following comments, it is not that me, or you, or anyone else is not responsible when taking drugs for recreation, it is that drugs in many times blur the lines of rationality and responsibility, in order to feed some sort of need that is beyond the scope of taking a drug beyond its expected use for different purposes instead of recreation.

That was covered under the part about researching OD limits.

Haha, you don't think teens would push it to if not past the limit? Get with the program wigs.

That's why, when you are sober, you purchase the least amount possible or only have that amount with you.

Teens do it anyways, so there's no harm in trying to teach this.

... and then after swilling it, out of your head, go driving to the nearest booze store to top yourself up....

I don't really know anyone who "purchases the least amount possible". Reguardless of the vice....

And Callum is 100% right.

I wonder why they don't...

Speaking of Vicodin, I currently have a little predicament with it. This doesn't fall into the category of 'recreational' but it's based on responsibility.

Doc's have been shoving Vicodin down my throat for the last 2 months since I injured my knee. The first week, it helped with the pain slightly. I've complained about it not being effective for quite some time, but they will not prescribe anything stronger. They will give me as many prescriptions as I request (the most I requested was 3 refills of 40 each in a week, which they readily agreed to), but will not change to something better. I am taking them for the pain, but how many is too many?

Immediately following a long day of surgeries on it they prescribed me Percocets, which worked wonderfully (I was taking about 1/3 - 1/4 as many as the Vicodins I had been taking), but alas, as soon as I run out and request more they give me the line, 'We are not able to prescribe anymore, but I can call in Vicodin to the pharmacy of your choice'. And once again, I am stuck in the same boat I was in before surgery. Massive pain and a painkiller that isn't effective, -- is it irresponsible to exceed the recommended dose by 2 or 3 times to receive relief?

You should also be able to take heavier doses of ibuprofen or some other type of pain reliever with the Vicodin, that could help. Of course, ask your doctor before mixing anything, but it's better than Vicodin alone if they won't give you anything stronger.

Several issues could be in play...

You have developed a tolerance, which is normal and typical for those with chronic pain issues...tolerance for the respitory depression associated with narcotics is less than for the pain tolerance, so you must be careful to not "overdose"...typically, more narcotic is needed over time to achieve the same level of relief you got at a lower dose.

People on pain meds like Vicodin can become addicted.

Keep in mind what I am saying is not DIRECTED at you..I will provide a little information and you must honestly assess whether it pertains to you or not.

Do you feel you "need" the Vicodin?

Do you have a "mental timetable" you go by to take the Vicodin...ie: "It's been 3 hours...time for Vicodin" whether you "hurt' or not?

Do you feel more "at ease' or "normal" when taking it?

You need to honestly assess the "need"....narcotics are POWERFUL...and psychological addiction is just as strong as physical addiction...my opinion is you may have both.

This is a deep hole, and you are on the precipice...recognizing there "may" be a problem IS GOOD...at this point you have not fallen in...but over time...questioning whether it is "right' or not will disappear...and at that point, you have fallen in.

I think you may not have an attentive or well versed physician with regards to pain issues.

You may want to consult your Primary physician and have a frank discussion on what you are going through...you may need to see a Physician who specializes in Pain management...usually an Anesthesiologist with special training...peripheral nerve blocks...epidural steroids, etc...may give you enough time to wean off the Vicodin, and then if it is still needed at a later date...it will be as effective as the first time you took it.

2 questions:

Is the one prescribing and throwing prescriptions at you your surgeon?

What was the nature of your surgery...a Total Knee Replacement?

I'm not addicted to them, I would LOVE to stop taking them. To tell you the truth I hate taking them, but at this point Vicodin is the better of the two evils at play in my situation. Because of this I am not too worried about a psychological addiction forming. I am well educated to the potential for physical addiction to higher level narcotics but I've always perceived Vicodin as being too weak to affect me the way other narcotics do.

My surgeon is the one prescribing them to me now, before him it was an orthopedist. I've heard very high opinions of this surgeon from everyone who has had work done by him, including my physical therapist. He is a sport's medicine specialist at the University I'm being treated at and seems to have quite a good reputation around this area. I'm not sure if he is the one actually deciding what to prescribe me though, as it is a University hospital with tons of student staff. It's next to impossible to get in touch with him personally so every time I call I just get transferred to one of the intern students.

I had a few surgeries done, including an MPFL repair, 2 arthroscopic surgeries, and a Fulkerson osteotomy that hit a nerve and left my leg partially numb, though unluckily enough in the wrong spots. I believe I could deal with the pain from the ligament repair and arthroscopic surgeries without pain pills but the osteotomy is another story entirely.  I had it done in an outpatient facility but went into shock from the pain later that night after the nerve block wore off and ended up spending the night in the ER out of my head with fentanyl and morphine. A few hours after I was dismissed the next morning, I was in pretty much the same predicament. It's eased up since then a bit, but the pain is still intolerable without medication.

With all due respect, what you posted was not a "philosophy of drug use". 

It looks rather more like a 'code of behavior for recreation drug users'.

Nothing in the article addressed the philosophy behind why one might indulge the usage of recreational drugs, only responsible behavior in so doing.

I see nothing to critique in that 'code' of responsible use of recreation drug use.  Indeed, that 'code of behavior' seems applicable to all kinds of things.  Could just as easily apply to 'responsible' use of alcohol or gambling or guns.

 ???

I thought ethics was philosophy...

I just tried to put something different in here. Don't hate.

A noble endeavor indeed.

It's a good point that was raised though. The same ethics are universal to many things. I don't see why drugs are special in this regard.



TBH, when I first saw this thread, I thought it was going to be about the door in the back of your mind.

You know the one...

Let's go with that one then.

No I don't know the one.

Perhaps we should go ask Alice... I think she'll know...

Is there something about psychedelics that can tune you in to things you didn't know about before? Is the perception real, or is it just in your head?


I can say that at low doses of psychedelics, my hand eye coordination improves, as do my reaction time and visual acuity.


I think psychedelics can be a good thing for intellectual stimulation. I don't claim it's safe or responsible, just that you surely will learn some very useful things.


Personally, I have found that wandering into the wilderness (literally and figuratively) with a head full of LSD has always given me a new angle on things, and a new understanding.

The thing is though, and some people don't realize this (for a while I didn't), but that once that door is open, you don't really have to keep opening it...

Ok, let's tune in, turn on, and drop out.


For me, taking lsd or mushrooms CAN be a learning experience. Granted, sometimes I just get royally fucked up, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But other times it can really make you question what is or what is not real. For example, if a small chemical reaction can make trees dance the Macarena, then is the fact that they don't really real, or is it just the default program of the brain?

As Keanu would say: woah.

Not something to be taken lightly.

Recreational use is in error, IMO.

Not wrong, in a moral fashion so much.

When I see people using these powerful tools for recreation, it makes me cringe like when someone uses a skilsaw in an unsafe manner.



There is however, much to be learned and much understanding to be gained for those who seek it.

I've just been reading this thread, and not commenting on it, bnut I figured what the hell.

I don't really see it or understand it as I haven't taken a drug that did anything to me.  My system is VERY difficult to medicate, even with prescription drugs.  Very little phases it.  So I am wondering what I've missed.  But then I still have all the money I might have spent on drugs!

I never spend money on drugs - that is what friends are for.

Your system may be hard to break, but trust me, I can find something that will have you chasing the dragon forever. Everyone can be broken.

It doesn't really hold much interest to me.  I don't really even drink all that much.  I think some of it comes from being a parent.  It's not something I am real willing to model in front of my son.

But the whole difficulty thing is something I wouldn't mind getting rid of.  I am used to having my teeth drilled without Novocaine.  The shots aren't fun, and they never worked, so I did away with them.  And the doc never listened that I could still feel it.  Stuff like that my whole life.

Psychedelics, and LSD in particular are a different animal than many other types of drugs. The danger, IMO, comes not from risk of dependency (very, very weak physical addictive properties) or spending too much money, but from things people aren't prepared for in their own subconscious.

IMO, much of the same knowledge can be gained in other ways, psychedelics are a kind of short cut.

In what other ways?

Meditation, extreme hardship (physical or mental), education, travel, and adventure, or even intensive reasoning.

These are a few of the ways.

From what I have read, many Buddhists criticize use of psychedelics in the pursuit of spiritual truths precisely because it is a shortcut from meditation, and the knowledge gained isn't as complete.


I would consider much of my own use of psychedelics to have components of meditation, intensive reasoning and mental hardship. The way I see it, the chemicals facilitated the process. Generally speaking, I don't shun shortcuts in this sense, especially if the path is to be traversed repeatedly. You get a better lay of the land if you wander off the beaten path here and there, IMO.

Or knowledge that befuddles.


I just think it is dangerous and not worth the risk.  I have taken the risk and lucky to get out, sometimes regretting that I ever did.  However, some people have been permanently psychologically scarred.  Psychedelics can really change someone for the worse.

I prefer meditation.  It's benefits are limitless.  The only cost is time.

So, taking psychedelics is like a quick enlightenment that never sticks. Interesting.

In buddhism enlightenment never really sticks.

So it's the same?

In buddhism you take an active role in your meditation.  With psychedelics they just happen.

I'll agree. Using psychedelics can be dangerous. Not only in risk of poor decisions while under the influence, and monetary cost, but also in the long term effects. There is no denying that the massive use of psychedelic chemicals from my youth has had a profound effect on the way I think. Some effects are negative, but I see a net positive. I don't claim it's safe, or for everyone. For me they have outlived their usefulness as tools.


I won't argue with the befuddlement, but there is much to learn from that befuddlement. Clarity and noise are relative. I personally have derived great value from utter confusion, it gave me a reference point to clarity.

I see the similarity between meditation and tripping as peering into yourself. Gaining a better understanding about how you, and your mind interact with reality. Both lead to questioning of the status quo, and both have come under fire at different times (although, legally it's much easier to justify a ban on psychedelics) from the established system.

Ultimately, meditation is a much more sustainable way, but I would not discount the value of the psychedelic experience.

Reminds of me the quote, "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."

HST, I thought of posting that one myself actually.

He had a tendency to tell it like it was, I have a lot of respect for that. I really appreciate his writing because he doesn't overlook danger, and realizes the inherent value and comedy in it.

What have you learned, if anything, through psychedelics?

Interesting question, one I'm not sure I'm fully prepared to answer, but I'll try.

One thing I've learned is that when it comes down to it, I ultimately only have myself to rely on, and that I am reliable if I can get over my apprehensions. I typically would go into the woods at night. Once I found myself far out from camp in a fairly heavy blizzard. I never could resist the temptation to get intentionally lost in those situations, and I had done it this time. I was far enough out that my loudest yells to hear return shouts were futile. The alternative to trusting my navigational ability was hypothermia or worse.

Before I had resolved the question to myself if it was an innate ability I had to get back, or if the things I had learned that let me know how to do it, I came up on the campfire.



I tended to get really introspective, and that plays on the ego dampening characteristics of the experience. I saw things about my own personality that I had never seen before. A different view of my own thoughts showed me how selfish and arrogant my mindset was. TBH, I think this accounts for a great deal of the "weird feeling" that many people find and dislike with psychedelics. There are ugly thoughts in the recesses of my mind (I don't think I'm alone in this respect), and I am happy that I am more fully aware of them.

You went into the woods on psyches?

As a rule, yes, buildings of almost any sort are too confining.

The crappy experiences (I'm not really sure how we're defining a bad trip) almost always happened indoors, or in some sort of built landscape.

Well, one of the best trips I had was into a snow storm. Just a beautiful night.

Usually I like to be indoors, alone, and with a hundred albums at my disposal. Hopefully some sort of musical instrument as well.

Yes, music would be the primary exception to that rule for me (painting or drawing as well). There have been times when I've locked myself in a room with a guitar...

That particular night we happened to have a few guitars, a clarinet and a djembe. If nothing else, you could say we were dedicated. We got a pretty good late-late-night jam going.

Heat is essential, houses can be a nice thing to have nearby if it's cold. The same can be accomplished with a fire though. We had a really good setup with tents circled around a fire in a semi circle, with a very good tarp setup (we were professionals). A small wall of firewood reflected ground level heat back into the camp area. As in any other situation that involves extreme elements, I'd advise some level of caution. You need to be prepared.

Here's something to think about.

I remember one night when me and a few friends took some shrooms, we decided to jam out. We set up all of these awesome effects pedals and stuff like that to get the trippiest music possible.

Well, after a while we got bored, when one of our non-musician friends picked up the guitar (tripping as well). He's played a little guitar, the usual two Nirvana songs and the first :15 of Stairway. Anyways, the music he was playing was simply awesome. A little primitive and easy, but he was following scales and writing songs that you could easily hear on the radio. We recorded it, so it's not like we were just thinking that way.

I wonder if there's been any tests showing that people can do this on psychedelics. He basically didn't play guitar at all, but was just on another planet where he understood music beautifully. Odd.

I don't know of any empirical tests, but I did once see a guy learn mandolin (at least enough to jam) in the span of about an hour. He only had a very limited understanding of guitar (hadn't really learned many chords yet even).

IMO, there is something inherently musical about the experience.

I'm gonna go on a search to see if a test like this has been done.

I doubt an accurate and/or independent empirical study has been conducted that had anything to do with reality and hallucinogens. Hallucinogens are a door to a world that had not been officially "investigated" or "explored". The human brain is more the 'frontier' of my generation than space.