IAP Political Forum

Couples of weeks ago we "celebrated" the 40th anniversary of the death of revolutionary icon Ernesto Che Guevara but in the end it wasn't so clear that he was a heroe and many of us, really thought that he was no more than an assesin.

Lefty people always believe that people like Che or Stalin, for sure had a reason to do what they did. It does not matter how many million were killed by Stalin.........."they probable did something to deserve that punishment"

As you know the use of the lie as a political weapon is part of socialisms/communism.

Yesterday the Pope beatified 498 slain in Spanish war in Rome.

Many of us do receive information regarding the Spanish II República that perhaps was not so true.

We all know that lot of people from out of Spain came across to fight Franco's fascism, the world famous "Brigadas Internacionales". These Brigadas were formed by americans, brits, polish, danish, french.... people from different parts of the world. Remember that befoere the war and duirng the war, the spanish republica area was full of Stalin's agents. Anyone who dare to show a non communists opinion, was sent to André Marty, a frenchman in charge of the Brigadas Internacionales, a true assesin that killed lot of brigadistas

But the reality is that the situation in Spain between 1931 and 18.07.1936 was unacceptable.

So in order to clarify a bit the way lefties worked in Spain back in those days, here you have a small list of priests killed just becuase their belief, some of them beatified yesterday by Ratzinger.

1931: May; lootering, riots and 100 churches burned in Madrid, Valencia, Alicante, Murcia, Sevilla y Cádiz. La Guardia Civil and fire fighter remained sat at their offices

Año 1932: 3000 jesuitas expelled from Spain. Lootering, riots and churches burned in Zaragoza, Córdoba, Cádiz (enero); Sevilla (abril); Granada (julio), Cádiz, Sevilla y Granada (octubre). 

Año 1934: Cup de etat commited by the socialist party of Spain.33 priests killed in Oviedo.

Año 1936, before Franco's cup de etat: 17 priests killed.

Del 18 de julio al 1 de agosto: 861 priests killed.

Agosto de 1936: 2.077 priests killed (more than 70 per día), included 10 bishops.

So yesterday, many spaniards at last, were recongized they were just killed because of their faith in the christian God. They were not fascists, they were not criminals.

But in Spain, back in those days you could be sent to jail just for wearing a suit and a tie.

In a local newspaper a man from Madrid says:

"I was sent to jail in 1936 because I didn't have callous in my hands, therefore those were the hands of a fascist. I've never been part of Falange. The truht is that they arrested me becase I was wearing a tie"

This is a lie and you know it, Jabato. There was no coup d'etat, but an armed revolt in Asturias. A revolt which was controlled by then General Franco, at the price of harrasing a good piece of Oviedo with artillery and murdering hundreds of citizens of the city who weren't involved in the revolt.

But then, everything goes, right, Jabato? Lie, deceive, cheat, swindle... all is good for your sort. >:(

Your sort is proud to wave the flag of the dead clergy, but you conveniently dismiss the "rojos" who were murdered in the same time, during the war, and AFTER the war! You conveniently dismiss the 100,000 children STOLEN from their "red" parents and sent to orphan houses -where 80% of them would die within 5 years. You conveniently dismiss the 53,000 people who where executed after the war because of THOUGHTCRIME... it's all about YOUR dead, right? And you mourn that now we pretend to look for the corpses of OUR dead, for OUR mass burials, for OUR memory, and you and vermin like you oppose the equal treatment of all victims. You want YOUR victims to hold the privileges they had durign Franco, and OURS to be kept forgotten, ignored, buried in hills and roads and by cemetery walls... else you claim, cynically, we are "opening wounds" by looking for them! Scoundrel!

For those interested about truth rather than partisan bullshit, have a link free of charge and bias:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Spanish_Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Spanish_Republic)

Major Zee Lee link wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Spanish_Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Spanish_Republic)

Major, every time you use wikipedia as your only source of knowlegde you just show me, that you haven't read a book in...................................¿your life?

Saludos

I provide ONLINE sources to DEBUNK your LIES... and you dare to crytizise them, mentiroso? :o

Why don't you produce some evidence for a change?

Why don't you apologyze for being a liar?

Why don't you stop spreading lies?

What balls you got, lieing shamelessly and still you dare to crytizise me when I produce evidence on how you are a liar! >:(

Major Zee Lee wrote:
I provide ONLINE sources
 
Sources? Why do you use plural? You havent provided sources. You only provided one source. The same source that says that catalonians are ethnically different than the rest of us.

Major Zee Lee wrote:
to DEBUNK your LIES... and you dare to crytizise them, mentiroso?

Remember, Major, that you're a Global Moderator, some sort of "hasta el infinito y más allá" moderator(no se decirlo en inglés) and just because I do not share your points of views, it doesn't give you the right to insult me as a mentiroso. It is very bad that any of us insult antoher forumite, but when the insult come from a Global Moderator......it is not -globally talking- very nice at all. It isn't a good publicity for this superb forum. I'm not dropping by any spanish forum as I used to. This board fullfil all my requirements. ¡No lo jodas! It is simply a matter of respect.   

Major Zee Lee wrote:
Why don't you produce some evidence for a change?
It seems from your words that you did produce some evidence but you didn't. Wiki=nothing. 

Saludos..................moderator!

Why don't you backup your claim, Jabato? For a change?

Prove that there was a coup d'etat in 1934 in Spain.

That has nothing to do with me being a moderator. You made an asseveration and I ask you to back it up. I, accidentally, claim it is false and you know it to be false, and yet you spread it, which technically means you are telling a lie. And as it adds to a row of lies, this means you are a liar.

Yet the point is... you made an asseveration. Prove it true if you can. :police:



->BTW... if you dislike wikipedia.... here's an online book for you:

"A History of Spain and Portugal - Vol. 2", by Stanley G. Payne

http://libro.uca.edu/payne2/payne25.htm (http://libro.uca.edu/payne2/payne25.htm)

Major Zee Lee wrote:
Why don't you backup your claim, Jabato? For a change?
Prove that there was a coup d'etat in 1934 in Spain.

You don't really deserve me wasting my time, but anyway..............this is very difficult to translate for me. Your english is out of this world if you compare it with mine, so, ¡¡¡si tienes huevos, tradúceselo a nuestos compañeros foreros!! and let them know the way spanish left in general and the spanish socialists party in particular sent us to a civil war.

“Me declaro culpable ante mi conciencia, ante el Partido Socialista y ante España entera, de mi participación en el movimiento revolucionario. Lo declaro como culpa, como pecado; no como gloria. Estoy exento de  responsabilidad en la génesis de aquel movimiento; pero la tengo plena en su preparación y desarrollo.”

Indalecio Prieto Tura, en su libro Discursos en América. Con el pensamiento puesto en España, Editorial Tollocan, México, D.F., 1944

Este pájaro, Indalecio Prieto, lider del Psoe, es sorprendido por la Guardia Civil en la ría Asturiana de Pavía, de madrugada, dirigiendo la descarga de armas desde un barco, llamado Turquesa, hasta la Diputación de Oviedo controlada por el Psoe. El tipo tiene que huir a Francia en coche, esa misma noche, porque uno de los Guardias Civiles, cuando le dan el alto, y Prieto dice: "soy Indalecio Prieto", el picoleto le espeta "pero,...Indalecio Prieto, ¿el diputado nacional?" El mismo, contestó. Despistó a los civiles y salió por patas hacia Francia, con un empresario bilbaíno, que fue el que puso la pasta para las armas. Armas compradas creo, en Portugal. Hay un atestado de la Guardia Civil, Major, que recoge esta detención/incautación.
Este pájarop, junto con el otro Francisco Largo Caballero, fueron condenados a 70 años de prisión por la II República española, por levantarse en armas contra la II República española.
More:

“si los socialistas son derrotados en las urnas, irán a la violencia, pues antes que el fascismo preferimos la anarquía y el caos” (Largo Caballero)
 
“¿Concordia? No. ¡Guerra de clases! Odio a muerte a la burguesía criminal. ¿Concordia? Si, pero entre proletarios de todas las ideas que quieran salvarse y librar a España del ludibrio. Pase lo que pase, ¡atención al disco rojo!”. Indalecio Prieto
Ya para terminar una del fundador del Psoe

“El PSOE viene a buscar aquí (al Parlamento), a este cuerpo de carácter eminentemente burgués, lo que de utilidad pueda hallar, pero la totalidad de su ideal no está aquí. La totalidad ha de ser obtenida de otro modo. Mi partido está en la legalidad mientras ésta le permita adquirir lo que necesita; fuera, cuando ella no le permita alcanzar sus aspiraciones”

“Debemos, viendo la inclinación de este régimen por S.S, comprometernos para derribar ese régimen. Tal ha sido la indignación por la política del Gobierno del Sr. Maura en los elementos proletarios, que nosotros hemos llegado al extremo de considerar que antes de S.S. suba al Poder debemos ir hasta el atentado personal” (pag 439-443 Diario de Sesiones 7-7-1910).

El Presidente del Congreso le invita varias veces a retirar sus palabras, pero Iglesias se niega y se reafirma en ellas. 15 días después, Manuel Posa, de 18 años, disparó 3 tiros contra Maura, que salió gravemente herido.

Muchas calles de España llevan aún el nombre de Pablo Iglesias

And more:
1. Los jóvenes socialistas deben acostumbrarse a las movilizaciones rápidas, formando militarmente de tres en fondo.

2. Cada nueve (tres filas de a tres) formaran una década añadiéndole un jefe, que marchará al lado izquierdo…

4. Es necesario manifestarse en todas partes… Manifestarse militarmente, para que todas nuestras acciones lleven por delante una atmósfera de miedo y respeto…

7. Ha de acostumbrarse a pensar que en los momentos revolucionarios la democracia interna en la organización es un estorbo. El jefe superior debe de ser ciegamente obedecido…

8. La única idea que hoy debe de tener gravada el joven socialista en su cerebro, es que el socialismo solamente puede imponerse por la violencia y que aquel compañero que propugne lo contrario, que tenga todavía sueños democráticos, sea alto, sea bajo, no pasa de ser un traidor, consciente o inconscientemente…

10. Y, sobre todo esto: armarse. Como sea, donde sea y por los procedimientos que sean. Armarse. Consigna: Ármate tú y al concluir arma si puedes al vecino, mientras haces todo lo posible por desarmar al enemigo. M. Parra Celaya, Juventudes de vida española, Madrid, 2001, p.188. .

It is very interesting point number 8:

The only idea that a young socialist must have in his brain is tha socialism can only be achieve through violence and any tovarich who dare to say the opossite, any tovarich with democratic dreams, is just a traitor, consciously or unconscious 

THE SOCIALIST PARTY OF SPAIN, SINCE IT'S FOUNDATION, HAS BEEN ALWAYS A FASCIST PARTY

 

You STILL are a liar. You said it was a coup d'etat, and it was not. It was an armed rebellion in Asturias.

Can't you tell the difference between an armed rebellion and a coup d'etat?

Or the difference between Madrid (where the Governemnt lies) and Asturias (300 kilometers away)?

How, in heavens, you make a coup d'etat 300 kiometers away from the government...?

Seriously. You know it was a lie. You know that "a coup d'etat" rings better than "an armed rebellion in a far and isolated province" (we shall remember that, back then, Asturias had no road connection with Madrid). But it's not the truth. The truth is, there was an armed rebellion in Asturias.... period. Not a coup d'etat.

And you know too that the PSOE was re-founded not once but twice since that revolutionary era... that it abandoned Marxism in 1977 (just 20 years earlier than britain's own Laborist Party, go figure!)... and that it has won 5 of the 9 democratic elections held since 1977!. But still it's not democratic enough to you... ::)

Jabato, how did u manage to come up with the phrase "people like Che or Stalin" ? One was a guerilla fighter, another a head of a 200 million state. Che was never a head of state. Why the hell should Che ever be even compared to Stalin. Because both were Marxists? Sameness of ideology justifies any comparison? If all Marxists are same, all anti-Marxists are same, right? Why not compare Christian Democrats with the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda (a notoriously brutal rebel group fighting under Christian slogans) on the basis that both are Christian movements?

Or because both were assesins

As Lee Harvey 0swald... ;D

I guess you mean they where damned reds and murderers as all damned reds are either mentally ill or mentally weak... :P ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_terror

how about Duces, Fuhrers and Caudillos? How about Christian assassins?

Oh yes those you mention too, but, man, people killed under socialism are many, many more, than people killed for those you say. And it is not a matter of saying which one killed more, but I just can't understand people giving Stalin/Che some sort of "romantic revolutionary justification" for what they did, as I told you, much worse than what the other did.

It is clear you don't have huevos enough to translate things like this:

Me declaro culpable ante mi conciencia, ante el Partido Socialista y ante España entera, de mi participación en el movimiento revolucionario. Lo declaro como culpa, como pecado; no como gloria. Estoy exento de  responsabilidad en la génesis de aquel movimiento; pero la tengo plena en su preparación y desarrollo.”

<cough>

To avoid talking about the balls (or just moral meanness) it takes to lie and blame others of exposing your lies...

"I pledge myself guilty before my conscience, before the Sociaalist Part and the entire Spain, of my taking part in the revolutionary movement. I declare this as a fault, as a sin; not as glory. I am exempt of responsability on the origin of such movement; but I have it plentyfully on its readying and development"

So the Secretary general of the PSOE in 1934 agrees he had responsability in the revolutionary movement in Asturias... but, WHERE IS THE COUP D'ETAT YOU CLAIMED, JABATO?


So? Where is the coup d'etat? It is YOUR quote, YOUR claim, and it is FALSE, it is a LIE. You told a lie and it has been proved it was a lie. And yet you bitch about how I don't translate statements which too prove how you told a lie? Man, you are cynical... :o

Thanks a lot!

"I pledge myself guilty before my conscience, before the Sociaalist Part and the entire Spain, of my taking part in the revolutionary movement. I declare this as a fault, as a sin; not as glory. I am exempt of responsability on the origin of such movement; but I have it plentyfully on its readying and development"

This man, Indalecio Prieto, was a socialist MP. This "revolutionary movement" you called it, was promoted by..............members of Parliament, Major. The socialist party of Sapin has got the lamentable honor of being the promoters of the only cup deetat non commited by the army in our country, but for MP. What a bunch of traitors!

Don't be silly. This was simply a failed cup de etat. Socialism in Spain has always meant fascism, in the socialist way, but fascim at the end. 'Till 1976 that they refuse socialism, because is just a piece of s**t as an ideological corp.

And again... ::)

A revolt in Asturias is NOT a coup d'etat. A revolt is a revolt. And a coup d'etat is a coup d'etat. They are not mutually interchangeable expressions and they describe very different political events.

You still claim that a revolt was a coup d'etat and this still is a lie. Back to square 1 again. But, I should know. My signature used to be "there is no way to win a  debate with a liar". And this whole discussion is becoming a case in point... ::)

For you is a revolt, for me is a cup de etat.
But anyway, how could you call a revolt, whose promoters are MP's?
And why they were sentenced to 70 years be3hind bars then?

Call it as you want to, that's your privilege... but be aware that it was not a coup d'etat no matter how much you stretch the definition of coup d'etat...

- Coup d'etat: The sudden overthrow of a government, differing from a revolution by being carried out by a small group of people who replace only the leading figures

Golpe de Estado.

1. m. Actuación violenta y rápida, generalmente por fuerzas militares o rebeldes, por la que un grupo determinado se apodera o intenta apoderarse de los resortes del gobierno de un Estado, desplazando a las autoridades existentes.

Now, how is a revolt 300 kilometers away from the Government (and in a poorly connected province), an attempt to "overthrow the government" or "apoderarse de los resortes de un estado"? No way! ::)

Call it like you want to, but the 1934 revolt in Asturias was not a coup, putsch or how you want to call it. It was a revolt, period. :police:


(BTW, there's an unanswered question at the "Socialism=idiotims" thread)

Golpe de Estado.

1. m. Actuación violenta y rápida, generalmente por fuerzas militares o rebeldes, por la que un grupo determinado se apodera o intenta apoderarse de los resortes del gobierno de un Estado, desplazando a las autoridades existentes.

And what is the part you don't understand?

Major wrote:
BTW, there's an unanswered question at the "Socialism=idiotims" thread)

Oh my God, sure?, an unanswered question at the "Socialism=idiotims" thread? I can't believe it. I think I'm gonna have problems to get asleep tonight Major

I understand it perfectly...

What I don't understand is why you call "coup d'etat" to a local revolt in Asturias. Maybe it's because you are a liar.

Major Zee Lee wrote:
I understand it perfectly...

I'm sorry to disagree with you. You understand, nothing Major.

Major Zee Lee wrote:
What I don't understand is why you call "coup d'etat" to a local revolt in Asturias.


What I do not understand is how you're so ignorant and why you don't feel shy showing everybody your enormous amount of ignorance.
Why do I call it cup d'etat? because it was a cup d'etat Major. A coup d'etat carried out by memeber of Parliament. Are you old enough -in mental terms- to understand that when a Revolt -as you romantically call it- is carried out by MP's it is not a revolt, Major. Once again, get a book a read it. And stop doing el ridículo

Vaalee, aceptamos pulpo como animal de compañía... ::)

As always my forum hero Lee Zee dominates! I love the conversation!

Was the purpose of this thread to uncover the lies of socialism not those of the moderator and the forumite?

As far as I could tell, the original purpose was to regurgigate standard revisionist mumbo-jumbo about the SCW. You know, we got our own brand of David Irving, just here the dude is a former terrorist, which adds him a boost in respectability...  ::)