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Title: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Philosofear on October 30, 2007, 08:00:57 PM I have heard from many Theists that we know their books are true because morality was given to them by God or that morality only exists if their is a God. It is absured to claim that morality requires a God. To back up their argument they will say things like "if their is no objective ruler to define what is right and wrong, then their is no ethics" or "if their is no punishment for wrong-doing their is no ethics." These claims and arguments misconstrue the very nature of what it means to be ethical.
Ethical behavior requires two things alone of concious beings. The first being free will, and the second being reason. If you have no reason you cannot distinguish what is positive and what is negative, and if you have no free will, your action isn't up to you anyway. Let us consider the golden rule "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." This is what many people (even most christians) consider the ultimate ethical principle, yet THEIR IS NO MENTION OF GOD in the Golden Rule. Their response will be "well Jesus said it," which is true but they forget that Confucious, Lao-Tzu, and Socrates all said it way before Jesus. Furthermore let us analyze the principles contents. Firstly it is a projection of ones own subjective experience on that of another person. If one does not one harm to come to him, one can easily imagine that another man does not want harm to come to him, and therefore we can deduce that if I don't want to be harmed, I should not harm. This is all using reasoning and the choice is dependent on the existence of free will, and my friends that is all ethics requires; free will and reason, no God. Furthermore, ethics doesn't require a final judgement. Christian apologetics often argue that if their is no judgement, their is no ethics; are not seeing the difference between the two concepts. Ethics defines what is right and wrong, while justice is that which carries out ethics, in other words punishes those who have done wrong and rewards those who have done right. (Just a note; If it is a fact that God wrote Leviticus, then surely God is malevolent and I want nothing to do with him. Read it and if you aren't horrified then perhaps you should look up what ethics means.) Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: allpoints on October 30, 2007, 08:22:32 PM I'm fine with the subject of ethics, it's the "Free Will" part that throws a bone in it for me.
The concept of Free Will requires a grantor and a grantee, and is thus trapped in the teleological need of cause. Occams Razor applies here. No God, no need for "Free Will". Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Technocrat on October 30, 2007, 08:59:40 PM It really doesn't matter when dealing with Theists to point out all the terrible things condoned by their religions, gods, etc, because they have the magic "get out of reality free card" wherein they can simply engage in special pleading to give their deity ultimate authority. He can do anything he wants, just because, and it's all good just because he says so. You might as well piss into the wind. They live in their own separate bubbles.
Murder is good because God say so...and it's not really murder, because it's not a wrongful killing! Why? He says so. How do you know? They say he says so. Who cares? He's the "ultimate authority." Who says so? He says so. It's all an appeal to authority. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Major Zee Lee on October 31, 2007, 03:39:44 AM In a certain way, we should not be obliged to follow any auhtority that can't enforce itself.... it's almost oxymoronic, an authority that can't manifest itself is not really an authority, but a concept of authority... and all concepts of authority are impossible to tell from a fabulation or a more mundane source of authority, like a fellow human being.
Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Philosofear on October 31, 2007, 04:45:31 AM I'm fine with the subject of ethics, it's the "Free Will" part that throws a bone in it for me. The concept of Free Will requires a grantor and a grantee, and is thus trapped in the teleological need of cause. Occams Razor applies here. No God, no need for "Free Will". Well I agree to you to an extent, however, it must be noted that even if God is required for free will to exist, that Ethics doesn't derive itself from that Deity, only the "attribute" that the deity had given. However, I don't think that God gives out free will like its some sort of magical essence, rather it is arguable that free will in an inherent quality of the soul, and possibly their is no need for God if all souls caused their own existence (some hefty metaphysics required, but no less hefty for that of God). Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Callum on October 31, 2007, 08:01:56 AM ... You might as well piss into the wind. They live in their own separate bubbles. For those with a multilingual sense of humour (and some experience of how Theists use logic), this calls to mind the old schoolboy syllogism: Le pistache Le moustache Donc, le pis mousse. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: allpoints on October 31, 2007, 10:39:26 AM I'm fine with the subject of ethics, it's the "Free Will" part that throws a bone in it for me. The concept of Free Will requires a grantor and a grantee, and is thus trapped in the teleological need of cause. Occams Razor applies here. No God, no need for "Free Will". Well I agree to you to an extent, however, it must be noted that even if God is required for free will to exist, that Ethics doesn't derive itself from that Deity, only the "attribute" that the deity had given. However, I don't think that God gives out free will like its some sort of magical essence, rather it is arguable that free will in an inherent quality of the soul, and possibly their is no need for God if all souls caused their own existence (some hefty metaphysics required, but no less hefty for that of God). No God, no soul. Much less need for "hefty metaphysics". Morality preceded gods. Gods are constructs of human morality, as are their "attributes". Morality is based on a genetic need to form groups for the survival of the gene. You can translate that as: "Morality is based on the human need to form groups". Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: IamMe on October 31, 2007, 12:14:29 PM The first being free will, and the second being reason. You seem to be implying here that if there is no free-will we are excused from having to act ethically. I disagree. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Dormouse on October 31, 2007, 03:24:29 PM No God, no soul. Much less need for "hefty metaphysics". Morality preceded gods. Gods are constructs of human morality, as are their "attributes". Morality is based on a genetic need to form groups for the survival of the gene. You can translate that as: "Morality is based on the human need to form groups". That's very good. :) Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Reasoned Faith on October 31, 2007, 03:48:42 PM No God, no soul. Much less need for "hefty metaphysics". Morality preceded gods. Gods are constructs of human morality, as are their "attributes". Morality is based on a genetic need to form groups for the survival of the gene. You can translate that as: "Morality is based on the human need to form groups". Yet you would be hard pressed to demonstrate that Morality proceeds God and is based on genetic needs. Surly you admit this is presupposition. Title: "Is the Pious loved because it is Pious, or Pious because it is loved?" Post by: allpoints on October 31, 2007, 05:15:18 PM No God, no soul. Much less need for "hefty metaphysics". Morality preceded gods. Gods are constructs of human morality, as are their "attributes". Morality is based on a genetic need to form groups for the survival of the gene. You can translate that as: "Morality is based on the human need to form groups". Yet you would be hard pressed to demonstrate that Morality proceeds God and is based on genetic needs. Surly you admit this is presupposition. Don't have to. Plato ("Socrates") showed the logical independence of morality and the gods in The Euthyphro over 2300 years ago. I notice your charge of presupposition includes the grandest of omnipresuppositions, are you just giving yourself a pass on the rule? :D Title: Re: "Is the Pious loved because it is Pious, or Pious because it is loved?" Post by: Reasoned Faith on October 31, 2007, 06:05:24 PM No God, no soul. Much less need for "hefty metaphysics". Morality preceded gods. Gods are constructs of human morality, as are their "attributes". Morality is based on a genetic need to form groups for the survival of the gene. You can translate that as: "Morality is based on the human need to form groups". Yet you would be hard pressed to demonstrate that Morality proceeds God and is based on genetic needs. Surly you admit this is presupposition. Don't have to. Plato ("Socrates") showed the logical independence of morality and the gods in The Euthyphro over 2300 years ago. You give him far too much credit when you make the extension you did. Quote I notice your charge of presupposition includes the grandest of omnipresuppositions, are you just giving yourself a pass on the rule? :D No, we are in the same boat. Title: Re: "Is the Pious loved because it is Pious, or Pious because it is loved?" Post by: allpoints on October 31, 2007, 10:18:54 PM No God, no soul. Much less need for "hefty metaphysics". Morality preceded gods. Gods are constructs of human morality, as are their "attributes". Morality is based on a genetic need to form groups for the survival of the gene. You can translate that as: "Morality is based on the human need to form groups". Yet you would be hard pressed to demonstrate that Morality proceeds God and is based on genetic needs. Surly you admit this is presupposition. Don't have to. Plato ("Socrates") showed the logical independence of morality and the gods in The Euthyphro over 2300 years ago. You give him far too much credit when you make the extension you did. Quote I notice your charge of presupposition includes the grandest of omnipresuppositions, are you just giving yourself a pass on the rule? :D No, we are in the same boat. Perhaps not. If morality is independent of the Wakan Tanka, and necessary and instinctive to every individual human being; would it not suggest something phenotypical is going on? Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Findeton on November 01, 2007, 02:40:31 AM I'm atheist, god doesn't exist. Yet i have very right and strong moral values. Morality doesn't come from something that doesn't exist at all.
Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Philosofear on November 01, 2007, 04:40:52 AM The first being free will, and the second being reason. You seem to be implying here that if there is no free-will we are excused from having to act ethically. I disagree. If their is no free will, one cannot act ethically because ones "choice" wouldn't then be a choice it would be just their nature. No free will no ethics, plain and simple. Just think of it like this; An apple falls from a tree due to many causes; the chief among them being the gravitational force. Now if you apply this same prospect to a human and assume that a human doesn't have free will, this means we are strictly controlled by A)our own nature determined by genetics and B)our experiences. Like the apple our choice to be unethical (to fall from the tree) wouldn't be a choice but a predetermined occurence. So if you think that human actions that are predetermined are unethical then you must also think that predetermined apples falling from the tree are unethical. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Reasoned Faith on November 01, 2007, 04:54:03 AM The first being free will, and the second being reason. You seem to be implying here that if there is no free-will we are excused from having to act ethically. I disagree. If their is no free will, one cannot act ethically because ones "choice" wouldn't then be a choice it would be just their nature. No free will no ethics, plain and simple. Just think of it like this; An apple falls from a tree due to many causes; the chief among them being the gravitational force. Now if you apply this same prospect to a human and assume that a human doesn't have free will, this means we are strictly controlled by A)our own nature determined by genetics and B)our experiences. Like the apple our choice to be unethical (to fall from the tree) wouldn't be a choice but a predetermined occurence. So if you think that human actions that are predetermined are unethical then you must also think that predetermined apples falling from the tree are unethical. I agree. I can find nothing to fault this argument. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Factinista on November 01, 2007, 07:10:52 AM If we have no free will of any kind then we must simply be objects who passivly observe the forces acting upon us. If we have NO will, free or not, then we are machines simply executing our predetermined actions.
IF this is true then morality doesn't exist. There is no morality enherant in cars or computers so it would be the same with us. Fortunatly I don't think this is the case :D I actually think that morality is the outgrowth of our evolutionary process. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Findeton on November 01, 2007, 08:24:58 AM The first being free will, and the second being reason. You seem to be implying here that if there is no free-will we are excused from having to act ethically. I disagree. If their is no free will, one cannot act ethically because ones "choice" wouldn't then be a choice it would be just their nature. No free will no ethics, plain and simple. Just think of it like this; An apple falls from a tree due to many causes; the chief among them being the gravitational force. Now if you apply this same prospect to a human and assume that a human doesn't have free will, this means we are strictly controlled by A)our own nature determined by genetics and B)our experiences. Like the apple our choice to be unethical (to fall from the tree) wouldn't be a choice but a predetermined occurence. So if you think that human actions that are predetermined are unethical then you must also think that predetermined apples falling from the tree are unethical. I agree. I can find nothing to fault this argument. Maybe what you call free will is not what free will is. It depends on the definition of that. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Callum on November 01, 2007, 09:40:11 AM Maybe what you call free will is not what is free will. It depends on the definition of that. This is a regular topic here, Findeton. You will find that most die-hard supporters will refuse to attempt a definition. The usual weaseling-out is 'its self-evident'. Those who do attempt one find that their definition is circular via ethics and responsibility. Philosfear may like to take up your challenge for definitions by explaining what he means by 'ethics' and 'morality' too. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Technocrat on November 01, 2007, 10:16:12 AM Morality is just a social construction that is designed to make a prosperous society, minimize unnecessary harm for it to function. It's a survival tool for society and an outgrowth of evolution and our social-animal pack nature. Even if there were no concept of free will as it is typically understood, it wouldn't matter one bit for morality, since the rules of protecting society would still apply. Whether someone intends to harm others is irrelevant to whether or not he is and what needs to be done about it.
Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Findeton on November 01, 2007, 10:17:25 AM Maybe what you call free will is not what is free will. It depends on the definition of that. This is a regular topic here, Findeton. You will find that most die-hard supporters will refuse to attempt a definition. The usual weaseling-out is 'its self-evident'. Those who do attempt one find that their definition is circular via ethics and responsibility. Philosfear may like to take up your challenge for definitions by explaining what he means by 'ethics' and 'morality' too. For any definition of free will, it's clear to me that we have to accept as premises that free will does indeed exist and we have it. We have to update the definition of free will as science advances so it fulfils thoses premises. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Dormouse on November 01, 2007, 11:41:42 AM It is perfectly resaonable to assert that Christian morality comes from the Christian God, just like Muslim morality comes from the Muslim God.
I don't think anyone can rationally dispute this framework. But morality certainly has many sources. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Findeton on November 01, 2007, 12:16:51 PM It is perfectly resaonable to assert that Christian morality comes from the Christian God, just like Muslim morality comes from the Muslim God. I don't think anyone can rationally dispute this framework. But morality certainly has many sources. Yes, i accept that christian morality comes from the christian God,but as i'm atheist, i argue that the christian god is just something that mankind created, and therefore christian morality comes from mankind and not from any god. ;) Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Reasoned Faith on November 01, 2007, 03:15:26 PM Yes, i accept that christian morality comes from the christian God,but as i'm atheist, i argue that the christian god is just something that mankind created, and therefore christian morality comes from mankind and not from any god. ;) You can argue it all day long, but with just your presupposition it remains conjecture. As Callum indicates it should be self-evident to all of us that we are quite capable of freely choosing to get up and say flip the light switch on and off. furthermore I defy you to prove otherwise. This is not a problem of definition. It is more a problem of denial. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Findeton on November 01, 2007, 04:02:46 PM Yes, i accept that christian morality comes from the christian God,but as i'm atheist, i argue that the christian god is just something that mankind created, and therefore christian morality comes from mankind and not from any god. ;) You can argue it all day long, but with just your presupposition it remains conjecture. As Callum indicates it should be self-evident to all of us that we are quite capable of freely choosing to get up and say flip the light switch on and off. furthermore I defy you to prove otherwise. This is not a problem of definition. It is more a problem of denial. I do not doubt that free will exists and we have it. I do not doubt that no god exists. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Callum on November 02, 2007, 02:19:26 AM Yes, i accept that christian morality comes from the christian God,but as i'm atheist, i argue that the christian god is just something that mankind created, and therefore christian morality comes from mankind and not from any god. ;) You can argue it all day long, but with just your presupposition it remains conjecture. As Callum indicates it should be self-evident to all of us that we are quite capable of freely choosing to get up and say flip the light switch on and off. furthermore I defy you to prove otherwise. This is not a problem of definition. It is more a problem of denial. Firstly: the notions that 'christian moralirty comes from the christian god', 'muslim from muslim', etc rather points to the idea that it comes from something prior to all religions. Secondly: during my stay up here I've had the chance to read a lot of what my Dad had in his library and what he's written in his research and to get into IAP1 archive. I've in no way read all the stuff I want to: this isn't a simple subject. But I did come across him debating this very subject with you. Thats why I said about 'weaseling-out'. I think he more or less comprehensively showed your position to be very badly argued - well you didn't argue did you? Just banged the table like right now. "The earth is flat. It's self-evident. I defy you to prove otherwise. Evidence? Hearsay, not proven, conjecture, etc. Better explanation? No its not, it doesn't agree with what I want to believe.". I'll ask you something like the question he tried to answer. So just how do you see 'free will' operating within the way the mind works in general? I think your failure to respond adequately to that will be sufficient proof that your views in this are incoherent. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: IamMe on November 02, 2007, 12:27:20 PM The first being free will, and the second being reason. You seem to be implying here that if there is no free-will we are excused from having to act ethically. I disagree. If their is no free will, one cannot act ethically because ones "choice" wouldn't then be a choice it would be just their nature. No free will no ethics, plain and simple. Just think of it like this; An apple falls from a tree due to many causes; the chief among them being the gravitational force. Now if you apply this same prospect to a human and assume that a human doesn't have free will, this means we are strictly controlled by A)our own nature determined by genetics and B)our experiences. Like the apple our choice to be unethical (to fall from the tree) wouldn't be a choice but a predetermined occurence. So if you think that human actions that are predetermined are unethical then you must also think that predetermined apples falling from the tree are unethical. It is a choice, but not in the sense you mean. Yes we are predetermined to make the choice but it is on the basis of our own genetics and experiences that we make them - that we act - either ethically or unethically. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: allpoints on November 02, 2007, 02:11:17 PM Yes, i accept that christian morality comes from the christian God,but as i'm atheist, i argue that the christian god is just something that mankind created, and therefore christian morality comes from mankind and not from any god. ;) You can argue it all day long, but with just your presupposition it remains conjecture. As Callum indicates it should be self-evident to all of us that we are quite capable of freely choosing to get up and say flip the light switch on and off. furthermore I defy you to prove otherwise. This is not a problem of definition. It is more a problem of denial. Firstly: the notions that 'christian moralirty comes from the christian god', 'muslim from muslim', etc rather points to the idea that it comes from something prior to all religions. Secondly: during my stay up here I've had the chance to read a lot of what my Dad had in his library and what he's written in his research and to get into IAP1 archive. I've in no way read all the stuff I want to: this isn't a simple subject. But I did come across him debating this very subject with you. Thats why I said about 'weaseling-out'. I think he more or less comprehensively showed your position to be very badly argued - well you didn't argue did you? Just banged the table like right now. "The earth is flat. It's self-evident. I defy you to prove otherwise. Evidence? Hearsay, not proven, conjecture, etc. Better explanation? No its not, it doesn't agree with what I want to believe.". I'll ask you something like the question he tried to answer. So just how do you see 'free will' operating within the way the mind works in general? I think your failure to respond adequately to that will be sufficient proof that your views in this are incoherent. No one wanted to play ball with my postulate either. I had a great little exposition on the Euthyphro Dilemma, with a preemptive heading off of Aquinas' apologetics and Spinoza's rationalizations tied in with the naturalistic fallacy, but I guess everyone smelled that coming. :D Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Callum on November 02, 2007, 02:24:05 PM Yes, i accept that christian morality comes from the christian God,but as i'm atheist, i argue that the christian god is just something that mankind created, and therefore christian morality comes from mankind and not from any god. ;) You can argue it all day long, but with just your presupposition it remains conjecture. As Callum indicates it should be self-evident to all of us that we are quite capable of freely choosing to get up and say flip the light switch on and off. furthermore I defy you to prove otherwise. This is not a problem of definition. It is more a problem of denial. Firstly: the notions that 'christian moralirty comes from the christian god', 'muslim from muslim', etc rather points to the idea that it comes from something prior to all religions. Secondly: during my stay up here I've had the chance to read a lot of what my Dad had in his library and what he's written in his research and to get into IAP1 archive. I've in no way read all the stuff I want to: this isn't a simple subject. But I did come across him debating this very subject with you. Thats why I said about 'weaseling-out'. I think he more or less comprehensively showed your position to be very badly argued - well you didn't argue did you? Just banged the table like right now. "The earth is flat. It's self-evident. I defy you to prove otherwise. Evidence? Hearsay, not proven, conjecture, etc. Better explanation? No its not, it doesn't agree with what I want to believe.". I'll ask you something like the question he tried to answer. So just how do you see 'free will' operating within the way the mind works in general? I think your failure to respond adequately to that will be sufficient proof that your views in this are incoherent. No one wanted to play ball with my postulate either. I had a great little exposition on the Euthyphro Dilemma, with a preemptive heading off of Aquinas' apologetics and Spinoza's rationalizations tied in with the naturalistic fallacy, but I guess everyone smelled that coming. :D Yea I know. Much too wise our theist friends to either argue a case they know they will lose. Thus you get a dry "you give him too much credit" - why??? Or a simple side step or disregard. None of them will actually put forward a description of how morality is derived from god and promulgsted amongst the non-godly. Or an explanation of how they mind works such that 'free will' occurs in the account. So whats this about the Euthyphro? Sounds fascinating..... Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: allpoints on November 02, 2007, 03:12:40 PM Yes, i accept that christian morality comes from the christian God,but as i'm atheist, i argue that the christian god is just something that mankind created, and therefore christian morality comes from mankind and not from any god. ;) You can argue it all day long, but with just your presupposition it remains conjecture. As Callum indicates it should be self-evident to all of us that we are quite capable of freely choosing to get up and say flip the light switch on and off. furthermore I defy you to prove otherwise. This is not a problem of definition. It is more a problem of denial. Firstly: the notions that 'christian moralirty comes from the christian god', 'muslim from muslim', etc rather points to the idea that it comes from something prior to all religions. Secondly: during my stay up here I've had the chance to read a lot of what my Dad had in his library and what he's written in his research and to get into IAP1 archive. I've in no way read all the stuff I want to: this isn't a simple subject. But I did come across him debating this very subject with you. Thats why I said about 'weaseling-out'. I think he more or less comprehensively showed your position to be very badly argued - well you didn't argue did you? Just banged the table like right now. "The earth is flat. It's self-evident. I defy you to prove otherwise. Evidence? Hearsay, not proven, conjecture, etc. Better explanation? No its not, it doesn't agree with what I want to believe.". I'll ask you something like the question he tried to answer. So just how do you see 'free will' operating within the way the mind works in general? I think your failure to respond adequately to that will be sufficient proof that your views in this are incoherent. No one wanted to play ball with my postulate either. I had a great little exposition on the Euthyphro Dilemma, with a preemptive heading off of Aquinas' apologetics and Spinoza's rationalizations tied in with the naturalistic fallacy, but I guess everyone smelled that coming. :D Yea I know. Much too wise our theist friends to either argue a case they know they will lose. Thus you get a dry "you give him too much credit" - why??? Or a simple side step or disregard. None of them will actually put forward a description of how morality is derived from god and promulgsted amongst the non-godly. Or an explanation of how they mind works such that 'free will' occurs in the account. So whats this about the Euthyphro? Sounds fascinating..... http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/euthyfro.html "Is the Pious loved because it is Pious, or Pious because it is loved?" ie "Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God?" ? Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Reasoned Faith on November 02, 2007, 03:43:20 PM I'll ask you something like the question he tried to answer. So just how do you see 'free will' operating within the way the mind works in general? I think your failure to respond adequately to that will be sufficient proof that your views in this are incoherent. How does it follow that if you find my responses inadequate you have proved my view is incoherent? In order to answer though I must know what you mean by "the way the mind works", so please describe this for us. In general free will exists if any of ones actions involve contingency. Intentional contingency implies choice and thus free will. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Callum on November 02, 2007, 11:52:21 PM I'll ask you something like the question he tried to answer. So just how do you see 'free will' operating within the way the mind works in general? I think your failure to respond adequately to that will be sufficient proof that your views in this are incoherent. How does it follow that if you find my responses inadequate you have proved my view is incoherent? In order to answer though I must know what you mean by "the way the mind works", so please describe this for us. In general free will exists if any of ones actions involve contingency. Intentional contingency implies choice and thus free will. I will answer your first question when you provide something to talk about, other than "it's self evident". You don't need to have any further description of the question from me - its "self evident" that our minds 'do' something - what and how is what you are being asked to describe, such that you can justify your notion of 'free will'. You have an open field. Your use of 'contingency' is not one I recognise. I guess you are trying to say that one 'could do otherwise'. However, as RL Austen once said 'it all comes down to can, like a frog staring up at you from the bottom of the beer-glass'. The meaning of 'intention' and 'choice' are equally subject to investigation. Could you try to answer the question without more 'self-evident' terms? Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Callum on November 02, 2007, 11:56:02 PM Thanks allpoints. I've read Euthyphro. It was the....
I had a great little exposition on the Euthyphro Dilemma, with a preemptive heading off of Aquinas' apologetics and Spinoza's rationalizations tied in with the naturalistic fallacy, but I guess everyone smelled that coming. :D that was interesting me. :) Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Dormouse on November 03, 2007, 05:19:08 AM It is perfectly resaonable to assert that Christian morality comes from the Christian God, just like Muslim morality comes from the Muslim God. I don't think anyone can rationally dispute this framework. But morality certainly has many sources. Yes, i accept that christian morality comes from the christian God,but as i'm atheist, i argue that the christian god is just something that mankind created, and therefore christian morality comes from mankind and not from any god. ;) "Honor among theives" would be an example of a kind of morality that does not derive from any God or religion. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Reasoned Faith on November 03, 2007, 09:45:18 AM I'll ask you something like the question he tried to answer. So just how do you see 'free will' operating within the way the mind works in general? I think your failure to respond adequately to that will be sufficient proof that your views in this are incoherent. How does it follow that if you find my responses inadequate you have proved my view is incoherent? In order to answer though I must know what you mean by "the way the mind works", so please describe this for us. In general free will exists if any of ones actions involve contingency. Intentional contingency implies choice and thus free will. I will answer your first question when you provide something to talk about, other than "it's self evident". You don't need to have any further description of the question from me - its "self evident" that our minds 'do' something - what and how is what you are being asked to describe, such that you can justify your notion of 'free will'. You have an open field. Your use of 'contingency' is not one I recognise. I guess you are trying to say that one 'could do otherwise'. However, as RL Austen once said 'it all comes down to can, like a frog staring up at you from the bottom of the beer-glass'. The meaning of 'intention' and 'choice' are equally subject to investigation. Could you try to answer the question without more 'self-evident' terms? I wonder if it was necessary that RL Austen said what he said. I wonder if he had any choice to say it differently or not at all. I wonder, was I constrained to wonder about this or could I have chosen not to ponder it at all. Let's begin by identifying all the modes of explanation. There is necessity driven by physical law for example and there is contingency. Contingent events are events that did not have to happen but did. Within contingency we have unconstrained contingency otherwise described as pure chance events and constrained contingency that are influenced by other factors . Within constrained contingency we have contingency that is undirected but constrained or modified by natural law (evolution) and we have directed contingency. Directed contingency is an act that did not have to occur but did occur by purpose/intent. I will call this design. So I count up four modes of explanation (counting evolution as distinct though one can consider it a combination of necessity and chance). 1. Necessity 2. Pure Chance 3. Evolution 4. Design Your claim is that directed contingent events (design) don't exit. You may even claim that all events are determined and therefore there are no contingent events at all (only necessity). But I am getting ahead of myself and perhaps choosing to put words in your mouth. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Callum on November 03, 2007, 01:46:47 PM So just how do you see 'free will' operating within the way the mind works in general? Let's begin by identifying all the modes of explanation. There is necessity driven by physical law for example and there is contingency. Contingent events are events that did not have to happen but did. Within contingency we have unconstrained contingency otherwise described as pure chance events and constrained contingency that are influenced by other factors . Within constrained contingency we have contingency that is undirected but constrained or modified by natural law (evolution) and we have directed contingency. Directed contingency is an act that did not have to occur but did occur by purpose/intent. I will call this design. So I count up four modes of explanation (counting evolution as distinct though one can consider it a combination of necessity and chance).1. Necessity 2. Pure Chance 3. Evolution 4. Design Your claim is that directed contingent events (design) don't exit. You may even claim that all events are determined and therefore there are no contingent events at all (only necessity). But I am getting ahead of myself and perhaps choosing to put words in your mouth. Thank you for your views on 'modes of explanation'. Some do coincide with heuristic stances that give advantage to minds in certain circumstances. However, the ensemble is not a schema I would agree with, and the 'analysis' is something of a mish-mash of different terms and concpets . Luckily, this does not answer the question. If you are preparing ground - for example to explain the minds processing in terms of 'design', then it would be easier to follow if you actually addressed the question. I think I should add that I am aware of no serious current philosopher of Mind, cognitive scientist, neurophysicist or functional psychologist who would approach it in this way, so I am agog for your expose. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Reasoned Faith on November 03, 2007, 02:09:30 PM Please do then suggest corrections to the schema.
Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: allpoints on November 03, 2007, 03:14:24 PM It is perfectly resaonable to assert that Christian morality comes from the Christian God, just like Muslim morality comes from the Muslim God. I don't think anyone can rationally dispute this framework. But morality certainly has many sources. I'll give it a try... The Abrahamic faiths assert a divinely perfect Creator as the source of morality. "God is Good" God created all things, Alpha, Omega. God created "good". God is Perfectly Divinely Infinitely Good. Problem with that is God has no free will. He must always be Perfectly Good. His options in any contingency are limited to the set of perfectly good things. Can a Diety with no free will be considered Moral? Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Abraxas on November 03, 2007, 04:20:28 PM Well, I'm not gonna read the other 3 pages, but I'm just gonna share my thoughts.
Morality was once the result of theology. With religion and faith people had a reason to live and work, granted, it was mostly for the church's benefit, but it also gave the peasents of that time a purpose. It taught them how to work as a community and was a perfect way to keep them under a certain degree of control. Morality was the result. Treating people with respect was done because the church told you that you would go to heaven if you did and that you would burn in eternal damnation if you didn't. It was excellent motivation. However, now we live in a time where people don't respect their fellow man because God or Allah or what have you told them, but because it is simply the most productive way to live in a community. Just because I'm an atheist does not mean I am immoral. And just because another peorson is religious does not mean they are moral. It's an issue of personality, not religion. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Callum on November 03, 2007, 06:48:37 PM Please do then suggest corrections to the schema. OK. Point taken. Your intention is to delay and digress, you have no intention of answering the question. Free will is 'self-evident', but there is no way you can/will say how it operates within any framework of current psychology. You might get some insights into your (and ID's) leaning to elevate simple metaphor and heuristics into ontological certainty if you think about Dan Sperber's claim for massive modularity of the mind. I don't agree with his view, but the bringing together of topic-oriented 'modules' is interesting and suggests an analysis of how metaphor could work - and also how it can mislead. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Reasoned Faith on November 04, 2007, 03:37:35 PM Just because I'm an atheist does not mean I am immoral. And just because another peorson is religious does not mean they are moral. It's an issue of personality, not religion. I'm not going to argue about whether some is or is not moral. If morality is a real construct (I believe it is) then regardless of what your worldview, One necessarily must comport themselves to a one degree of morality or another. Instead I wish to return to the question of the source of morality. In Christian Theism (the one I understand best) the source of morality is understood. But as an atheist, who claims to accept morality and claims to be moral, by reason and logic there must be a source for this morality. For atheism to be a correct worldview reason demands an explanation for morality. So I would like to hear your explanation of the source of morality in an atheistic worldview. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Reasoned Faith on November 04, 2007, 03:50:59 PM Please do then suggest corrections to the schema. OK. Point taken. Your intention is to delay and digress, you have no intention of answering the question. Free will is 'self-evident', but there is no way you can/will say how it operates within any framework of current psychology. Just as the question of the source of morality in an atheistic worldview is an open question, so too is the question of free-will. You are correct that I will not say how free will operates or manifests in our consciousness, but this becomes the problem of the atheistic worldview which it seems will have a very difficult time explaining the source of free will. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Abraxas on November 04, 2007, 04:16:52 PM Instead I wish to return to the question of the source of morality. In Christian Theism (the one I understand best) the source of morality is understood. But as an atheist, who claims to accept morality and claims to be moral, by reason and logic there must be a source for this morality. For atheism to be a correct worldview reason demands an explanation for morality. So I would like to hear your explanation of the source of morality in an atheistic worldview. Quite simply, respect for myself and others. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Technocrat on November 04, 2007, 04:27:22 PM Um, no, Reasoned Faith, you have a misconception about what atheism is. This is obvious because you assume that, for Atheism to be correct as a world-view, it must have an explanation for morality. This is incorrect because:
A. Atheism isn't a world-view, but a rejection of a concept (theism) B. Atheism has nothing to do with moral systems, and it's not a metaethical theory. Claiming that atheism cannot be a correct view unless it has an explanation for morality is a complete non-sequitur. It's like saying trees are green because milk tastes funny. Christianity IS a worldview that incorporates a moralistic, nromative view. Atheism does not. This isn't a flaw, and atheism need not explain anything about morality any more than a rejection of leprechauns should. Atheists can be moral, however, by appealing to humanistic philosophy or secular ethical theories, such as Utilitarianism, Kantianism, Prima-Faci Deontology, etc. There's no "God" go hand it down for them, but that's not a problem, as there are more than enough adequate ethical theories based on human welfare maximization or adherence to rules that promote social harmony. Morality can be explained by psychology and sociobiology, however, since moral systems are ultimately an outgrowth of animal social nature. Humans are African primates--social creatures. Morality therefore evolved out of that social nature as a tool to keep society working, to prevent harm to the group...it's a survival strategy. It's part of the social-behavioural component of primate biology. Our more advanced forms of morality have moved beyond simply that and are based on our capacity to reason and abstract. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: illy on November 04, 2007, 04:30:59 PM Well, I'm not gonna read the other 3 pages, but I'm just gonna share my thoughts. Morality was once the result of theology. With religion and faith people had a reason to live and work, granted, it was mostly for the church's benefit, but it also gave the peasents of that time a purpose. It taught them how to work as a community and was a perfect way to keep them under a certain degree of control. Morality was the result. Treating people with respect was done because the church told you that you would go to heaven if you did and that you would burn in eternal damnation if you didn't. It was excellent motivation. However, now we live in a time where people don't respect their fellow man because God or Allah or what have you told them, but because it is simply the most productive way to live in a community. Just because I'm an atheist does not mean I am immoral. And just because another peorson is religious does not mean they are moral. It's an issue of personality, not religion. I agree more closely with the idea of morality being shaped by survival. For example, the prohibition in Judaism on eating pork traces back to abstaining from pork eliminating the possibility of eating the parasites it sometimes carries. A negative view of homosexuality traces back to times when it was highly desirable to increase the population. Safety in numbers against other cultures and disasters. The community needed to grow to thrive. I believe the use of morality for control came after, ever so slightly. On the most basic level, a society simply cannot function well if it's members are allowed to just go around killing each other. There have to be laws against murder. Morality at it's root arose as a defensive structure. It's understood that we can't just go around killing each other, so the next logical step is enforcement. TBH, I doubt it took early man very long to figure out that morality could be shaped in a way to better control the group, through enforcement of morality. This also is defensive in nature (in it's implications for the group). More unified control of the group presents a united front to enemies and obstacles, and a better survival rate. I believe the idea of morality predates the idea of god. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Reasoned Faith on November 04, 2007, 05:55:30 PM Instead I wish to return to the question of the source of morality. In Christian Theism (the one I understand best) the source of morality is understood. But as an atheist, who claims to accept morality and claims to be moral, by reason and logic there must be a source for this morality. For atheism to be a correct worldview reason demands an explanation for morality. So I would like to hear your explanation of the source of morality in an atheistic worldview. Quite simply, respect for myself and others. And what is the source for this respect? Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Reasoned Faith on November 04, 2007, 06:13:19 PM Um, no, Reasoned Faith, you have a misconception about what atheism is. This is obvious because you assume that, for Atheism to be correct as a world-view, it must have an explanation for morality. This is incorrect because: A. Atheism isn't a world-view, but a rejection of a concept (theism) B. Atheism has nothing to do with moral systems, and it's not a metaethical theory. Those who subscribe to atheism do indeed have a worldview. In order for a worldview to be correct, logically it must be able to explain the workings of the world. Since you concur morality is a component in this world, then you as an atheist with a worldview (and you do have one) must explain morality in the context of your worldview. Oh, I see you are attempting to explain it below, good then we agree. Quote Morality can be explained by psychology and sociobiology, however, since moral systems are ultimately an outgrowth of animal social nature. Humans are African primates--social creatures. Morality therefore evolved out of that social nature as a tool to keep society working, to prevent harm to the group...it's a survival strategy. It's part of the social-behavioural component of primate biology. Then morality extends to all animals? Quote Our more advanced forms of morality have moved beyond simply that and are based on our capacity to reason and abstract. Since you admit reason and abstraction you now have them to explain also in context with your worldview. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Abraxas on November 04, 2007, 06:18:16 PM Instead I wish to return to the question of the source of morality. In Christian Theism (the one I understand best) the source of morality is understood. But as an atheist, who claims to accept morality and claims to be moral, by reason and logic there must be a source for this morality. For atheism to be a correct worldview reason demands an explanation for morality. So I would like to hear your explanation of the source of morality in an atheistic worldview. Quite simply, respect for myself and others. And what is the source for this respect? Are you implying that religion is? If so, I disagree. A productive society that respects it's members does not murder fellow men and women. A productive society does not actively try to physically or emotionall harm its members. Respect is simply the best way to run a society. I have to agree with a lot of what illy said. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Technocrat on November 04, 2007, 06:31:45 PM Quote Those who subscribe to atheism do indeed have a worldview. In order for a worldview to be correct, logically it must be able to explain the workings of the world. Since you concur morality is a component in this world, then you as an atheist with a worldview (and you do have one) must explain morality in the context of your worldview. Oh, I see you are attempting to explain it below, good then we agree. Atheism is the rejection of a concept: God. Atheism itself doesn't provide, nor does it need to, an explanation of anything related to morality. It's not a rejection of morality, but of God. Now science can explain morality, but atheism needn't have some unique explanation for it. An atheist can USE science to explain morality as well as adopt secular ethics. Again, it's identical to a rejection of magic bunnies. A rejection of magic bunnies doesn't logically require an explanation of unrelated concepts, such as morality. Atheism isn't an ideology which seeks to explain anything. It's merely the absence or rejection of something. Christianity, on the other hand, is an ideology which seeks to explain. Quote Then morality extends to all animals? It's an extension of group survival of social animals. All social groups have behaviours that are influenced by their social nature, their biology. We see this in other primate groups, such as Bonobo. It's a proto-morality. This doesn't mean all other animals are intelligent enough to think about why they are doing it or take it to such an abstract level with defined rules, justifications. Morality evolved from the social behaviour necessary for a functional clan, tribe, group, etc. They were reinforced through natural selection on behaviour. A behaviour that encouraged all members to backstab each other would not widely spread, nor would it lead to group survival, and group survival improved individual survival on the whole. Thus cooperation (reciprocal altruism) developed as a behavioural strategy for mutual survival and benefit. Humans evovled from these primate groups, so we inherited the group-cohesion and behavioural drives. The more intelligent, however, primates became (humans) the greater ability they had to create rules that intelligently promote group survival and cohesion. We can most abstractly think than chimps. It's just more abstract and rule-based. Doesn't mean it's magically inspired. Quote Since you admit reason and abstraction you now have them to explain also in context with your worldview. I can explain them in the context of my worldview, yes, but Atheism isn't my worldview. Atheism is a part of my worldview, but not it itself. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: illy on November 04, 2007, 06:50:16 PM Instead I wish to return to the question of the source of morality. In Christian Theism (the one I understand best) the source of morality is understood. But as an atheist, who claims to accept morality and claims to be moral, by reason and logic there must be a source for this morality. For atheism to be a correct worldview reason demands an explanation for morality. So I would like to hear your explanation of the source of morality in an atheistic worldview. Quite simply, respect for myself and others. And what is the source for this respect? Trial and error. Groups that cannot work together as groups have less of a chance of continued existence. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Abraxas on November 04, 2007, 06:59:11 PM Instead I wish to return to the question of the source of morality. In Christian Theism (the one I understand best) the source of morality is understood. But as an atheist, who claims to accept morality and claims to be moral, by reason and logic there must be a source for this morality. For atheism to be a correct worldview reason demands an explanation for morality. So I would like to hear your explanation of the source of morality in an atheistic worldview. Quite simply, respect for myself and others. And what is the source for this respect? Trial and error. Groups that cannot work together as groups have less of a chance of continued existence. How's that for evolution and "survival of the fittest"? Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: illy on November 05, 2007, 06:04:54 AM I consider morality a product of evolution.
Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Reasoned Faith on November 05, 2007, 12:07:58 PM I consider morality a product of evolution. Yes, you technocrat and Abraxes seem to be unanimous on that point. I will come back to this when I have a chance. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: illy on November 05, 2007, 01:05:22 PM I consider morality a product of evolution. Yes, you technocrat and Abraxes seem to be unanimous on that point. I will come back to this when I have a chance. It's pretty easy to see how morality (a great deal of it anyway) is a survival mechanism. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: allpoints on November 05, 2007, 01:09:09 PM Thanks allpoints. I've read Euthyphro. It was the.... I had a great little exposition on the Euthyphro Dilemma, with a preemptive heading off of Aquinas' apologetics and Spinoza's rationalizations tied in with the naturalistic fallacy, but I guess everyone smelled that coming. :D that was interesting me. :) 8) :-X Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: allpoints on November 05, 2007, 01:10:52 PM I consider morality a product of evolution. Yes, you technocrat and Abraxes seem to be unanimous on that point. I will come back to this when I have a chance. It's pretty easy to see how morality (a great deal of it anyway) is a survival mechanism. Especially considering that 99% of morality is an unconscious thing. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Philosofear on November 05, 2007, 04:53:21 PM Especially considering that 99% of morality is an unconscious thing. And considering that 99% of your statement appears to be just an asumed to be true statement with no other facts or thought supporting it. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: allpoints on November 05, 2007, 05:04:58 PM Especially considering that 99% of morality is an unconscious thing. And considering that 99% of your statement appears to be just an asumed to be true statement with no other facts or thought supporting it. So you thought you'd make it better by applying the same logical flaw you accuse me of? I'm about 99% certain that I've already made my case wrt your op.... Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: illy on November 05, 2007, 05:54:55 PM Percentages are up for debate (I didn't really take the 99% statement in a precise or literal way), but the concept is very valid.
Non violence is the "moral" way to act. For the vast majority of people (99% of them ;D), they don't even consider being violent with the people they walk past on the street. The moral action (not being violent) is the default behavior in this case . Usually, the immoral action isn't even considered. Likewise, most people (lets just call it 99% of them) walk into a store expecting to pay for their purchase in full. Again, stealing would be the immoral action, and the idea of stealing doesn't even occur to most people. In many cases, "moral" action is the default. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Dormouse on November 06, 2007, 11:06:10 AM It is perfectly resaonable to assert that Christian morality comes from the Christian God, just like Muslim morality comes from the Muslim God. I don't think anyone can rationally dispute this framework. But morality certainly has many sources. I'll give it a try... The Abrahamic faiths assert a divinely perfect Creator as the source of morality. "God is Good" God created all things, Alpha, Omega. God created "good". God is Perfectly Divinely Infinitely Good. Problem with that is God has no free will. He must always be Perfectly Good. His options in any contingency are limited to the set of perfectly good things. Can a Diety with no free will be considered Moral? 2. The ways of God cannot be judged by any mere mortal. Ergo, it is untenable to assert that an "always perfect God" has no free will. To some super omnipotent God, that point might be moot (or it might not). The point is that no human can make such a claim regarding the nature of God. 3. The morality of God is not at issue here. The point is that God's commands create morality. Even if God didn't make a moral choice, doesn't mean that his commands are not moral commands. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Callum on November 06, 2007, 01:05:25 PM Please do then suggest corrections to the schema. OK. Point taken. Your intention is to delay and digress, you have no intention of answering the question. Free will is 'self-evident', but there is no way you can/will say how it operates within any framework of current psychology. Just as the question of the source of morality in an atheistic worldview is an open question, so too is the question of free-will. You are correct that I will not say how free will operates or manifests in our consciousness, but this becomes the problem of the atheistic worldview which it seems will have a very difficult time explaining the source of free will. The source of morality is totally open for a theist since 'god' is a fantasy concept. Without the ancient visions of deranged old men, the ideaof morality can be considered in a more realistic 'mode' (I realise you think ths is a cool word, so I'll borrow it :) ). However we were discussing in this sub-thread the question of free will. For some monists its simple - free will does not exist, is a null concept, is a part of dualist mumbo-jumbo; others may simply explain it away by analysing the concept into non-mysterious equivalents (the springs of action-initiation can be found in early development, strong emotional memories, genetic pre-programming, memtic influence, etc). No difficulty in explaining it, no need to deny that the sciences of psychology or cognitive science are non-starters, no need to deny that the manifestly 'self-evident' applicability of the work of countless research departments is empty. This is of course the charitable interpretation of your refusal to say 'how free will operates or manifests in our consciousness'. Either your underlying concepts cannot do this (i.e. are neither consistent with reality, or are incoherent), or they are such that they deny what has already been established (and therefore have an alternative explanation of the way the mind works). Either way, your silence is instructive. Particularly with the clumsy attempt at a tu quoque argument! (edit: the onus is on you to justify your idea of free will by explaining how it operates within our minds. I can guess you will attempt once more to try to pass the parcel over to me. However that doesn't give any indication that those who champion free will have the slightest idea of what they are talking about. To date, you maintain this impression). Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: allpoints on November 06, 2007, 01:07:45 PM It is perfectly resaonable to assert that Christian morality comes from the Christian God, just like Muslim morality comes from the Muslim God. I don't think anyone can rationally dispute this framework. But morality certainly has many sources. I'll give it a try... The Abrahamic faiths assert a divinely perfect Creator as the source of morality. "God is Good" God created all things, Alpha, Omega. God created "good". God is Perfectly Divinely Infinitely Good. Problem with that is God has no free will. He must always be Perfectly Good. His options in any contingency are limited to the set of perfectly good things. Can a Diety with no free will be considered Moral? You may wish to reconsider the truth value of your statement... "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, Yahueh appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." Gen. 17:1 "Thou shalt be perfect with Yahueh your God." Deut. 18:13 "The Rock, his work, perfect: for all his ways judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right, he." Deut. 32:4 "God, his way is perfect; the word of Yahueh is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him. For who is God, save Yahueh? And who is a rock, save our God? God is my strength and power: And he makes my way perfect." II Sam. 22:31-33 "Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is [/b]perfect[/b] in knowledge?" Job 37:16 "The law of Yahueh, perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of Yahueh is sure, making wise the simple." Psa. 19:7 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt. 5:48 "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." Luke 6:40 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:20-23 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Rom. 12:2 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." I Cor. 13:10 "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." Heb. 5:8,9 "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption." Heb. 9:11,12 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17 Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Reasoned Faith on November 06, 2007, 05:40:17 PM I consider morality a product of evolution. Yes, you technocrat and Abraxes seem to be unanimous on that point. I will come back to this when I have a chance. It's pretty easy to see how morality (a great deal of it anyway) is a survival mechanism. Yes, I am still interested in making a response. I am looking for some thoughts I have misplaced. Will get back to this. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Dormouse on November 07, 2007, 08:26:26 AM You may wish to reconsider the truth value of your statement... Scripture and ancient languages are beyond my expertise and are notoriously fuzzy issues, not known for clear-cut agreement about the nature and definition of the translated terms."And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, Yahueh appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." Gen. 17:1 "Thou shalt be perfect with Yahueh your God." Deut. 18:13 "The Rock, his work, perfect: for all his ways judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right, he." Deut. 32:4 "God, his way is perfect; the word of Yahueh is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him. For who is God, save Yahueh? And who is a rock, save our God? God is my strength and power: And he makes my way perfect." II Sam. 22:31-33 "Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is [/b]perfect[/b] in knowledge?" Job 37:16 "The law of Yahueh, perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of Yahueh is sure, making wise the simple." Psa. 19:7 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt. 5:48 "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." Luke 6:40 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:20-23 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Rom. 12:2 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." I Cor. 13:10 "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." Heb. 5:8,9 "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption." Heb. 9:11,12 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17 On that basis, I'll withdraw critique point#1. My critique points #2 and #3 that you have not addressed are unaffected by this. To put it briefly, I don't think it is logically tenable to assert that God must be subject to his own moral commands - or rather, it is untenable to assert that humans can judge this. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: allpoints on November 07, 2007, 07:55:36 PM You may wish to reconsider the truth value of your statement... Scripture and ancient languages are beyond my expertise and are notoriously fuzzy issues, not known for clear-cut agreement about the nature and definition of the translated terms."And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, Yahueh appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." Gen. 17:1 "Thou shalt be perfect with Yahueh your God." Deut. 18:13 "The Rock, his work, perfect: for all his ways judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right, he." Deut. 32:4 "God, his way is perfect; the word of Yahueh is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him. For who is God, save Yahueh? And who is a rock, save our God? God is my strength and power: And he makes my way perfect." II Sam. 22:31-33 "Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is [/b]perfect[/b] in knowledge?" Job 37:16 "The law of Yahueh, perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of Yahueh is sure, making wise the simple." Psa. 19:7 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt. 5:48 "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." Luke 6:40 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:20-23 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Rom. 12:2 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." I Cor. 13:10 "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." Heb. 5:8,9 "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption." Heb. 9:11,12 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17 On that basis, I'll withdraw critique point#1. My critique points #2 and #3 that you have not addressed are unaffected by this. To put it briefly, I don't think it is logically tenable to assert that God must be subject to his own moral commands - or rather, it is untenable to assert that humans can judge this. In order to answer those questions, I would have to play along long with with the same fantasies I have just called inconsistent. I can't give any authority to a concept I don't believe is valid. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Technocrat on November 07, 2007, 09:09:06 PM If God is so perfect, why is he such a terrible edited when it comes to designing creatures? 90% of his designs have either failed, rebelled, and many of which he supposedly killed off in disappointment.
Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Dormouse on November 08, 2007, 08:20:29 AM In order to answer those questions, I would have to play along long with with the same fantasies I have just called inconsistent. I can't give any authority to a concept I don't believe is valid. Indeed. That's why I said above that I don't think anyone can rationaly dispute this framework. It is difficult (but not impossible) to apply rigorous logic to ideas that one believes may be illogical in the first place. ;)Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Dormouse on November 08, 2007, 08:22:52 AM If God is so perfect, why is he such a terrible edited when it comes to designing creatures? 90% of his designs have either failed, rebelled, and many of which he supposedly killed off in disappointment. It is unreasonable to apply human standards of logic to God who is not-human by definition.If God exists, God cannot be known by humans. Thus such a God's motives, purposes or undertakings cannot be reasonably judged by any human. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Delta Nine on November 08, 2007, 09:23:13 AM If God is so perfect, why is he such a terrible edited when it comes to designing creatures? 90% of his designs have either failed, rebelled, and many of which he supposedly killed off in disappointment. It is unreasonable to apply human standards of logic to God who is not-human by definition.If God exists, God cannot be known by humans. Thus such a God's motives, purposes or undertakings cannot be reasonably judged by any human. I love that part of religion. Humans are too dumb to understand God so don't even try. :laugh: :laugh: What a crock of shit. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Technocrat on November 08, 2007, 10:40:50 AM It's not unreasonable at all. What's unreasonable is the religious tactic of eliminating any possible criticism by shielding itself outside the realm of logic and reasoning. It has a veritable "get out of thinking free card." Whenever something is wrong or found to be edited retarded, it just goes: "Godz be MySteRious, yO, Fo-shure! CAnna Applay HumaAN Reasn!" That makes God meaningless and we shouldn't even be talking about it then, if that is indeed the case.
Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Dormouse on November 08, 2007, 11:43:13 AM I love that part of religion. Humans are too dumb to understand God so don't even try. :laugh: :laugh: What a crock of shit. Huh? My argument is entirely epistemological. It has nothing to do with the "stupidity" of humans, rather the inherent nature of knowledge and the inherent nature of God. Please feel free to offer your epistemological argument as to how and why humans could (theoretically) know God. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: daedalus 2.0 on November 08, 2007, 12:35:02 PM I'd like to add a recent scientific study that explains the selective advantage for morality, especially altruism, which theists love to use as a misguided attmpt to undermine Evolution.
it turns out that there is NO selective advantage for ONLY altruism or ONLY war-makingM but combined they create anm excellent evolutionary advantage. by being altruitic to your "brother" (or clan) and competing against other "clans" you have a better chance of winning the battle for fittness.. we have evolved to be altruistic AND competative against people not of our group. seems obvious, but it has now been tested. I am sure the theists will then claim that this is why atheism is wrong - because itsz not ideal, but I would say "who are you, the clay, to critisize the maker (evolution and the universe)? IS is not OUGHT. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Callum on November 08, 2007, 03:19:12 PM It is unreasonable to apply human standards of logic to God who is not-human by definition. If God exists, God cannot be known by humans. Thus such a God's motives, purposes or undertakings cannot be reasonably judged by any human. This is utter tosh. There is no empirical evidence for god. The only way anything can be said about the idea is by inference. The only rigorous rules of inference are those of deductive logic (ampliative logic is nobut judgement, and accepted as falsifiable by all who use it with sincerity). If, as you warble, we cannot use 'human' logic then we have no basis whatsoever for 'knowing' even the concept. If god cannot be known, then all talk about it - even its existence is just nonsense. So talking about whether it is moral or not, or 'has free will' or makes moral judgements, or commands.... ALL is empty of meaning. Remember an old signature - a nothing will do as well as a something about which nothing can be said. (I'm off down south for a week or three. Maybe by the time I get back we may have a reasoned response from reasoned on free will, infinity, etc... I'll not hold my breath) Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Patton on November 08, 2007, 03:48:24 PM There is no empirical evidence for god. The only way anything can be said about the idea is by inference. Couldn't the same thing be said about love? Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Abraxas on November 08, 2007, 05:16:43 PM There is no empirical evidence for god. The only way anything can be said about the idea is by inference. Couldn't the same thing be said about love? Yes... but how does that change the argument? Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: daedalus 2.0 on November 08, 2007, 05:32:52 PM exactly. its not that love doesn't exist, but it exists as a self-defined emotion within the person experiencing it. the love for your mother is different than mine, or hers.
likewise, god is a self-defined emotional experience that can be induced by chemical qpplication. God exists, true, but just as an emotion. A phantom feeling like an amputated arm. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Patton on November 09, 2007, 03:40:31 AM God exists, true, but just as an emotion. A phantom feeling like an amputated arm. Not a very good example.... "Phantom pain (or feeling)" comes from a very real, prior existing connection between the limb and the central nervous system. Those born with no limbs never have this phenomena. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: daedalus 2.0 on November 09, 2007, 05:06:03 AM you are right, my example doesn't make my point. I suppose it COULD be true though.(A Deist conception of god, in a way). We'll never know, I suspect.
Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Dormouse on November 09, 2007, 11:06:50 AM It is unreasonable to apply human standards of logic to God who is not-human by definition. If God exists, God cannot be known by humans. Thus such a God's motives, purposes or undertakings cannot be reasonably judged by any human. This is utter tosh. There is no empirical evidence for god. The only way anything can be said about the idea is by inference. The only rigorous rules of inference are those of deductive logic (ampliative logic is nobut judgement, and accepted as falsifiable by all who use it with sincerity). If, as you warble, we cannot use 'human' logic then we have no basis whatsoever for 'knowing' even the concept. If god cannot be known, then all talk about it - even its existence is just nonsense. So talking about whether it is moral or not, or 'has free will' or makes moral judgements, or commands.... ALL is empty of meaning. Remember an old signature - a nothing will do as well as a something about which nothing can be said. (I'm off down south for a week or three. Maybe by the time I get back we may have a reasoned response from reasoned on free will, infinity, etc... I'll not hold my breath) Indeed, I'd like to call to your reply "tripe" (to go with your "tosh") but that's uncivil and not condusive to reasonable discussions. Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: daedalus 2.0 on November 09, 2007, 12:15:11 PM mouse,
Aren't you saying "if a god exists that is undetectable by humans and has x characteristics..." Obviously, there is no rule that a god is undetectable by humans. In fact, many people claim that a god is very present and detectable. So, "if" you god is undetectable, then you will have no emperical evidence so why make the claim? It is entirely possible that not only is god detectable but completely knowable. perhaps god is as simple as e=mc2? Title: Re: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ) Post by: Reasoned Faith on November 10, 2007, 05:37:00 AM Please do then suggest corrections to the schema. OK. Point taken. Your intention is to delay and digress, you have no intention of answering the question. Callum has a problem with attributing intent. He has been challenged to correct what he calls error, then runs from the challenge. My free-will argument stands on the firm foundation that, as a mode of explanation, intentional constrained contingency (design) is a valid mode. As it stands, Callum has stipulated that design is valid but continues to claim that free-will is not. However, since design involves choice and is intentional, free will becomes a necessary component. |