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Title: This crow tastes good... Post by: Abraxas on November 20, 2007, 07:38:46 AM One of the crowning arguments that Republicans like to use when debating Iraq is that Democrats *LOVE* bad news. No argument has ever made me more sick in my entire life. I mean seriously... how do you even argue with such a ridiculous statement?
I have ALWAYS said that I hope I'm wrong about Iraq. I hope it can stabalize and I hope we can leave without a big power vacuum or some calamotous implosion. Well, crow never tasted so good: Quote from: New York Times Baghdad Starts to Exhale as Security Improves BAGHDAD, Nov. 19 — Five months ago, Suhaila al-Aasan lived in an oxygen tank factory with her husband and two sons, convinced that they would never go back to their apartment in Dora, a middle-class neighborhood in southern Baghdad. Today she is home again, cooking by a sunlit window, sleeping beneath her favorite wedding picture. And yet, she and her family are remarkably alone. The half-dozen other apartments in her building echo with emptiness and, on most days, Iraqi soldiers are the only neighbors she sees. “I feel happy,” she said, standing in her bedroom, between a flowered bedspread and a bullet hole in the wall. “But my happiness is not complete. We need more people to come back. We need more people to feel safe.” Mrs. Aasan, 45, a Shiite librarian with an easy laugh, is living at the far end of Baghdad’s tentative recovery. She is one of many Iraqis who in recent weeks have begun to test where they can go and what they can do when fear no longer controls their every move. The security improvements in most neighborhoods are real. Days now pass without a car bomb, after a high of 44 in the city in February. The number of bodies appearing on Baghdad’s streets has plummeted to about 5 a day, from as many as 35 eight months ago, and suicide bombings across Iraq fell to 16 in October, half the number of last summer and down sharply from a recent peak of 59 in March, the American military says. LINK for more (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/20/world/middleeast/20surge.html?ei=5065&en=7e7d43064c067b63&ex=1196226000&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print) And it's from the NYT, no less. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: bringbackwigs on November 20, 2007, 08:05:09 AM I think some Democrats just want Iraq to not get better until after the elections, at which point it becomes a blooming utopia.
Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Dog Face 11B on November 20, 2007, 05:09:42 PM I think some Democrats just want Iraq to not get better until after the elections, at which point it becomes a blooming utopia. Does Kansas finally play a team this week or another second rate washed up team? Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Dog Face 11B on November 20, 2007, 05:15:42 PM One of the crowning arguments that Republicans like to use when debating Iraq is that Democrats *LOVE* bad news. No argument has ever made me more sick in my entire life. I mean seriously... how do you even argue with such a ridiculous statement? I have ALWAYS said that I hope I'm wrong about Iraq. I hope it can stabalize and I hope we can leave without a big power vacuum or some calamotous implosion. Well, crow never tasted so good: Quote from: New York Times Baghdad Starts to Exhale as Security Improves BAGHDAD, Nov. 19 — Five months ago, Suhaila al-Aasan lived in an oxygen tank factory with her husband and two sons, convinced that they would never go back to their apartment in Dora, a middle-class neighborhood in southern Baghdad. Today she is home again, cooking by a sunlit window, sleeping beneath her favorite wedding picture. And yet, she and her family are remarkably alone. The half-dozen other apartments in her building echo with emptiness and, on most days, Iraqi soldiers are the only neighbors she sees. “I feel happy,” she said, standing in her bedroom, between a flowered bedspread and a bullet hole in the wall. “But my happiness is not complete. We need more people to come back. We need more people to feel safe.” Mrs. Aasan, 45, a Shiite librarian with an easy laugh, is living at the far end of Baghdad’s tentative recovery. She is one of many Iraqis who in recent weeks have begun to test where they can go and what they can do when fear no longer controls their every move. The security improvements in most neighborhoods are real. Days now pass without a car bomb, after a high of 44 in the city in February. The number of bodies appearing on Baghdad’s streets has plummeted to about 5 a day, from as many as 35 eight months ago, and suicide bombings across Iraq fell to 16 in October, half the number of last summer and down sharply from a recent peak of 59 in March, the American military says. LINK for more (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/20/world/middleeast/20surge.html?ei=5065&en=7e7d43064c067b63&ex=1196226000&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print) And it's from the NYT, no less. A little butter and garlic might help you choke down that bird....... but wait, some moonbat liberals like jpn, freethinker or buzz will come in to whine and cry about how many troops were lost. But fail to tell you that they rejoice every time we lose another American because it helps the democrats chances in 08. They use the KIA count as a political tool and have since the beginning. They lie to your face telling you how much they support the troops. They support the deaths of the troops is more like it. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Abraxas on November 20, 2007, 05:26:00 PM Quote One of the crowning arguments that Republicans like to use when debating Iraq is that Democrats *LOVE* bad news. No argument has ever made me more sick in my entire life. I mean seriously... how do you even argue with such a ridiculous statement? But fail to tell you that they rejoice every time we lose another American because it helps the democrats chances in 08. ... They support the deaths of the troops it more like it. ... case in point. ::) Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Dog Face 11B on November 20, 2007, 05:58:58 PM Quote One of the crowning arguments that Republicans like to use when debating Iraq is that Democrats *LOVE* bad news. No argument has ever made me more sick in my entire life. I mean seriously... how do you even argue with such a ridiculous statement? But fail to tell you that they rejoice every time we lose another American because it helps the democrats chances in 08. ... They support the deaths of the troops it more like it. ... case in point. ::) Hide your head from the truth....no sweat off my balls...... Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Abraxas on November 20, 2007, 06:24:54 PM Do you have the necessary equipemnt?
P.S. I posted the original article, so I don't get the whole "hide from the truth" thing. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: gommi on November 20, 2007, 07:06:21 PM This is great news, hopefully the increasing peace is sustainable.
Quote She is one of many Iraqis who in recent weeks have begun to test where they can go and what they can do when fear no longer controls their every move. Is this a reference to life during the war or under Saddam's regime? Or perhaps both? It is exciting to think of the positive changes their country will experience, provided stability is established and real democracy is allowed to flourish. Initially entering the war I was very un-supportive of the American invasion, however if it is truly able to improve the lives of Iraqi citizens then at least it can be respected to some degree. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Dog Face 11B on November 21, 2007, 02:13:07 AM Do you have the necessary equipemnt? P.S. I posted the original article, so I don't get the whole "hide from the truth" thing. Bigger than your anyways......see it take a real man to fight for his country....you sissy ass liberals wouldnt understand.....its a man thang.... Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Biker Dude on November 21, 2007, 05:04:13 AM Do you have the necessary equipemnt? Bigger than your anyways......see it take a real man to fight for his country....you sissy ass liberals wouldnt understand.....its a man thang....P.S. I posted the original article, so I don't get the whole "hide from the truth" thing. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: bringbackwigs on November 21, 2007, 09:07:02 AM I think some Democrats just want Iraq to not get better until after the elections, at which point it becomes a blooming utopia. Does Kansas finally play a team this week or another second rate washed up team? I think it's fantastic that everywhere I go, even the internet, people ask me about KU. I love it, even if it's off topic. We play #4 MU, by the way. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Citizen4Progress on November 21, 2007, 10:34:21 AM I would LOVE to see security in Iraq improve to the point where there is no longer a plausible rationale for keeping US combat troops and permanent military bases in the country. Then perhaps we'll see if there was ever any intent to leave.
Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: freethinker on November 21, 2007, 10:46:04 AM I would LOVE to see security in Iraq improve to the point where there is no longer a plausible rationale for keeping US combat troops and permanent military bases in the country. Then perhaps we'll see if there was ever any intent to leave. There never was, or will be an intent to leave Iraq. We will be spoon fed just enough feel good stories to make the occupation supporters feel good about the waste of life there.Bush and Cheney are succeeding in their mission in Iraq, That is to say Iraqi oil is staying under the sand and off the market so Texas and the Saudis stay happy. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: neue regel on November 21, 2007, 10:51:41 AM Quote There never was, or will be an intent to leave Iraq. We will be spoon fed just enough feel good stories to make the occupation supporters feel good about the waste of life there. Bush and Cheney are succeeding in their mission in Iraq, That is to say Iraqi oil is staying under the sand and off the market so Texas and the Saudis stay happy. A post completely devoid of meaning. So now....your story is, it was a war for oil but only to keep it off the market? THAT'S the story now? You sit at YOUR plate of crow (although good news from Iraq is nothing for ANY of us to crow about...that is left to the Iraqis themselves) and refuse to eat? Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: freethinker on November 21, 2007, 11:51:59 AM Mr new rule ;that has been THE story all along.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,450939,00.html Read this and take a little history lesson about Iraq and Iraqi oil. http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/37371/ Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: neue regel on November 21, 2007, 02:43:34 PM Quote Keeping Iraq's Oil In the Ground By Greg Palast, AlterNet. Posted June 14, 2006. Greg Palast? Hmmm...VERY objective indeed!! ::) The fact that this comes out in a 2006 book DOESN'T make it 'THE story all along.' It just makes for another crackpot theory. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: freethinker on November 21, 2007, 03:36:31 PM OK mr new rule, challange and refute any historical reference made there by Palast. If its a crackpot theory then what he says is all made-up right?
Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Patton on November 21, 2007, 04:29:34 PM I would LOVE to see security in Iraq improve to the point where there is no longer a plausible rationale for keeping US combat troops and permanent military bases in the country. Then perhaps we'll see if there was ever any intent to leave. The intent to stay or ever leave being "planned" in advance is a stretch in my humble opinion as inept and disastrous the rest of the planning had been.....a democratic western Christian superpower being hailed as "liberators" in the Middle East? This flies in the face of the regions entire history...a reasoned plan for invading a Middle Eastern nation should have taken this into account...... Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Citizen4Progress on November 21, 2007, 05:20:41 PM I would LOVE to see security in Iraq improve to the point where there is no longer a plausible rationale for keeping US combat troops and permanent military bases in the country. Then perhaps we'll see if there was ever any intent to leave. The intent to stay or ever leave being "planned" in advance is a stretch in my humble opinion as inept and disastrous the rest of the planning had been.....a democratic western Christian superpower being hailed as "liberators" in the Middle East? This flies in the face of the regions entire history...a reasoned plan for invading a Middle Eastern nation should have taken this into account...... To better evaluate their intent, one should pay attention to the PNAC agenda (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm) shared by the architects of the invasion in the Bush administration. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: jpn of Seattle on November 21, 2007, 07:24:16 PM I think to get back to the topic of the thread, which is that the so-called liberal media often doesn't live down (or up) to the conservative stereotype, it's fitting to post the picture that went with this very hopeful report:
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/11/20/world/20iraq2-600.jpg) Women walk through Baghdad's Zawra Park Oh, that liberal media. It NEVER reports good stuff about Iraq!!! p.s. Hey Patton. Haven't seen you around for awhile. Hope all's well. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Patton on November 22, 2007, 05:22:26 AM I would LOVE to see security in Iraq improve to the point where there is no longer a plausible rationale for keeping US combat troops and permanent military bases in the country. Then perhaps we'll see if there was ever any intent to leave. The intent to stay or ever leave being "planned" in advance is a stretch in my humble opinion as inept and disastrous the rest of the planning had been.....a democratic western Christian superpower being hailed as "liberators" in the Middle East? This flies in the face of the regions entire history...a reasoned plan for invading a Middle Eastern nation should have taken this into account...... To better evaluate their intent, one should pay attention to the PNAC agenda (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm) shared by the architects of the invasion in the Bush administration. That being said...referring to an earlier post of mine on another thread: Regardless of the reason for invading....the single reason we cannot leave is oil...but they will NEVER tell you this which in my mind makes them ALL worthless. http://www.itsallpolitics.com/forum/index.php?topic=909.msg22854#msg22854 It doesn't really matter what the reason is we invaded at this point, I'm done with the "blame game"...I am most concerned with how to extricate ourselves from an occupation that will continue to chew through economic resources like a buzzsaw....everyone is all relieved that the killing is down to what it was a year and a half ago...which is still alot of killing...and the primary factor in this is our presence...does ANYONE believe it will stay this way if we pull out COMPLETELY?...or are you all happy with a PERMANENT presence in the most inhospitable region to a democratic western Christian superpower on the planet? To better clarify....if PNAC was the impetus responsible for going to Iraq...and the Democrats win the White House and sweep Congress...publically denounces anything to do with PNAC....and ferrets out anyone ever associated with PNAC from our government....it doesn't change the fact the Democrats WILL NOT leave Iraq either because of oil. NO ONE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT will tell you...the American taxpayers, citizens and voters of this reality... Our government...PNAC OR NOT...will not leave the worlds second largest oil reserves up for grabs...and the ONLY way to ensure that does not happen is to keep American soldiers sitting on them. Why is it the ones YOU support for President do not tell you this? I am disgusted with the lot of them.....regardless of political affiliation. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Patton on November 22, 2007, 05:27:02 AM I would LOVE to see security in Iraq improve to the point where there is no longer a plausible rationale for keeping US combat troops and permanent military bases in the country. Then perhaps we'll see if there was ever any intent to leave. The intent to stay or ever leave being "planned" in advance is a stretch in my humble opinion as inept and disastrous the rest of the planning had been.....a democratic western Christian superpower being hailed as "liberators" in the Middle East? This flies in the face of the regions entire history...a reasoned plan for invading a Middle Eastern nation should have taken this into account...... To better evaluate their intent, one should pay attention to the PNAC agenda (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm) shared by the architects of the invasion in the Bush administration. That being said...referring to an earlier post of mine on another thread: Regardless of the reason for invading....the single reason we cannot leave is oil...but they will NEVER tell you this which in my mind makes them ALL worthless. http://www.itsallpolitics.com/forum/index.php?topic=909.msg22854#msg22854 It doesn't really matter what the reason is we invaded at this point, I'm done with the "blame game"...I am most concerned with how to extricate ourselves from an occupation that will continue to chew through economic resources like a buzzsaw....everyone is all relieved that the killing is down to what it was a year and a half ago...which is still alot of killing...and the primary factor in this is our presence...does ANYONE believe it will stay this way if we pull out COMPLETELY?...or are you all happy with a PERMANENT presence in the most inhospitable region to a democratic western Christian superpower on the planet? To better clarify....if PNAC was the impetus responsible for going to Iraq...and the Democrats win the White House and sweep Congress...publically denounces anything to do with PNAC....and ferrets out anyone ever associated with PNAC from our government....it doesn't change the fact the Democrats WILL NOT leave Iraq either because of oil. NO ONE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT will tell you...the American taxpayers, citizens and voters of this reality... Our government...PNAC OR NOT...will not leave the worlds second largest oil reserves up for grabs...and the ONLY way to ensure that does not happen is to keep American soldiers sitting on them. Why is it the ones YOU support for President do not tell you this? I am disgusted with the lot of them.....regardless of political affiliation. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: 5uperChicken on November 22, 2007, 05:27:38 AM I don't think Democrats love bad news.
I think that they just pretend to care about America, but really just wipe cheetos-dust off of their stomach and play "gotcha" on the internet 'till the wee hours of the morning. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Patton on November 22, 2007, 05:28:47 AM I would LOVE to see security in Iraq improve to the point where there is no longer a plausible rationale for keeping US combat troops and permanent military bases in the country. Then perhaps we'll see if there was ever any intent to leave. The intent to stay or ever leave being "planned" in advance is a stretch in my humble opinion as inept and disastrous the rest of the planning had been.....a democratic western Christian superpower being hailed as "liberators" in the Middle East? This flies in the face of the regions entire history...a reasoned plan for invading a Middle Eastern nation should have taken this into account...... To better evaluate their intent, one should pay attention to the PNAC agenda (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm) shared by the architects of the invasion in the Bush administration. That being said...referring to an earlier post of mine on another thread: Regardless of the reason for invading....the single reason we cannot leave is oil...but they will NEVER tell you this which in my mind makes them ALL worthless. http://www.itsallpolitics.com/forum/index.php?topic=909.msg22854#msg22854 It doesn't really matter what the reason is we invaded at this point, I'm done with the "blame game"...I am most concerned with how to extricate ourselves from an occupation that will continue to chew through economic resources like a buzzsaw....everyone is all relieved that the killing is down to what it was a year and a half ago...which is still alot of killing...and the primary factor in this is our presence...does ANYONE believe it will stay this way if we pull out COMPLETELY?...or are you all happy with a PERMANENT presence in the most inhospitable region to a democratic western Christian superpower on the planet? To better clarify....if PNAC was the impetus responsible for going to Iraq...and the Democrats win the White House and sweep Congress...publically denounces anything to do with PNAC....and ferrets out anyone ever associated with PNAC from our government....it doesn't change the fact the Democrats WILL NOT leave Iraq either because of oil. NO ONE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT will tell you...the American taxpayers, citizens and voters of this reality... Our government...PNAC OR NOT...will not leave the worlds second largest oil reserves up for grabs...and the ONLY way to ensure that does not happen is to keep American soldiers sitting on them. Why is it the ones YOU support for President do not tell you this? I am disgusted with the lot of them.....regardless of political affiliation. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Patton on November 22, 2007, 05:30:16 AM I would LOVE to see security in Iraq improve to the point where there is no longer a plausible rationale for keeping US combat troops and permanent military bases in the country. Then perhaps we'll see if there was ever any intent to leave. The intent to stay or ever leave being "planned" in advance is a stretch in my humble opinion as inept and disastrous the rest of the planning had been.....a democratic western Christian superpower being hailed as "liberators" in the Middle East? This flies in the face of the regions entire history...a reasoned plan for invading a Middle Eastern nation should have taken this into account...... To better evaluate their intent, one should pay attention to the PNAC agenda (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm) shared by the architects of the invasion in the Bush administration. That being said...referring to an earlier post of mine on another thread: Regardless of the reason for invading....the single reason we cannot leave is oil...but they will NEVER tell you this which in my mind makes them ALL worthless. It doesn't really matter what the reason is we invaded at this point, I'm done with the "blame game"...I am most concerned with how to extricate ourselves from an occupation that will continue to chew through economic resources like a buzzsaw....everyone is all relieved that the killing is down to what it was a year and a half ago...which is still alot of killing...and the primary factor in this is our presence...does ANYONE believe it will stay this way if we pull out COMPLETELY?...or are you all happy with a PERMANENT presence in the most inhospitable region to a democratic western Christian superpower on the planet? To better clarify....if PNAC was the impetus responsible for going to Iraq...and the Democrats win the White House and sweep Congress...publically denounces anything to do with PNAC....and ferrets out anyone ever associated with PNAC from our government....it doesn't change the fact the Democrats WILL NOT leave Iraq either because of oil. NO ONE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT will tell you...the American taxpayers, citizens and voters of this reality... Our government...PNAC OR NOT...will not leave the worlds second largest oil reserves up for grabs...and the ONLY way to ensure that does not happen is to keep American soldiers sitting on them. Why is it the ones YOU support for President do not tell you this? I am disgusted with the lot of them.....regardless of political affiliation. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Patton on November 22, 2007, 05:45:32 AM p.s. Hey Patton. Haven't seen you around for awhile. Hope all's well. Alot of trauma call with folks out sick and awaiting orders to a new Reserve unit...once that is done...it is time for serious discussions on re-deployment. Thanks for asking. Happy Turkey Day... Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Abraxas on November 22, 2007, 01:49:06 PM Well, I never actually doubted the US military's ability to stop the violence... although the hard part begins. Getting the Iraqi parliment to agree on something and keeping the sectarian seperation from destroying the government.
Al Maliki is losing support AND Sunni members of his government. It won't be considered legitimate unless ALL sides get a piece of the pie, and this includes the Kurds. p.s. Hey Patton. Haven't seen you around for awhile. Hope all's well. I'm sorry... did I miss something? What happened? Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Citizen4Progress on November 22, 2007, 07:00:22 PM I would LOVE to see security in Iraq improve to the point where there is no longer a plausible rationale for keeping US combat troops and permanent military bases in the country. Then perhaps we'll see if there was ever any intent to leave. The intent to stay or ever leave being "planned" in advance is a stretch in my humble opinion as inept and disastrous the rest of the planning had been.....a democratic western Christian superpower being hailed as "liberators" in the Middle East? This flies in the face of the regions entire history...a reasoned plan for invading a Middle Eastern nation should have taken this into account...... To better evaluate their intent, one should pay attention to the PNAC agenda (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm) shared by the architects of the invasion in the Bush administration. That being said...referring to an earlier post of mine on another thread: Regardless of the reason for invading....the single reason we cannot leave is oil...but they will NEVER tell you this which in my mind makes them ALL worthless. It doesn't really matter what the reason is we invaded at this point, I'm done with the "blame game"...I am most concerned with how to extricate ourselves from an occupation that will continue to chew through economic resources like a buzzsaw....everyone is all relieved that the killing is down to what it was a year and a half ago...which is still alot of killing...and the primary factor in this is our presence...does ANYONE believe it will stay this way if we pull out COMPLETELY?...or are you all happy with a PERMANENT presence in the most inhospitable region to a democratic western Christian superpower on the planet? To better clarify....if PNAC was the impetus responsible for going to Iraq...and the Democrats win the White House and sweep Congress...publically denounces anything to do with PNAC....and ferrets out anyone ever associated with PNAC from our government....it doesn't change the fact the Democrats WILL NOT leave Iraq either because of oil. NO ONE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT will tell you...the American taxpayers, citizens and voters of this reality... Our government...PNAC OR NOT...will not leave the worlds second largest oil reserves up for grabs...and the ONLY way to ensure that does not happen is to keep American soldiers sitting on them. Why is it the ones YOU support for President do not tell you this? I am disgusted with the lot of them.....regardless of political affiliation. We don't seem to be in disagreement here regarding the current situation and the real reasons for our prersence in Iraq. I also share your disgust with the politicians in Washington. If the United States of America truly wants to be an example to the world of a representative democracy founded upon the informed consent of the governed, then citizens must not be misled and continually lied to by their own government. If the truth is essential now, it is also essential to shed light on how we got into this situation. Can you expose the lies keeping us in Iraq without also exposing the lies that took us there? I don't think the American people can be fully empowered with self-government and prevent debacles like this in the future if we are kept in the dark about how and why we were misled into Iraq. Nor can we hope to resolve the current situation if the public continues to believe a false premise. Unfortunately, none of this can be extricated from partisan electoral politics. If everything surrounding this mess were as fully exposed as one could hope for, politicians would take advantage of it any way they can. It's the nature of politics. But if we are ever to change politics in this country for the better, we need an informed citizenry and elected representatives who are held accountable for their actions. By the way, the two presidential candidates for whom I have the most respect are Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul, both of whom are not perpetuators of the lies that took us into Iraq or advocates of a long term presence there. They are also polar opposites on domestic policy and have practically zero chance of winning their party's nomination. I don't support ANY candidate yet, but will, as always, vote for the lesser of evils in the general election. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Abraxas on November 22, 2007, 09:20:40 PM I don't support ANY candidate yet, but will, as always, vote for the lesser of evils in the general election. It really is sad to be talking about our future leader like this... but it's always the case. I mean, this isn't your class treasurer or anything... this is the leader of the most powerful country on the planet... and we're picking the "lesser of 2 evils"? I feel like that Indian that cries at the end of that movie (that I can't think of). Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: bringbackwigs on November 22, 2007, 09:22:10 PM Wayne's World 2?
Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Abraxas on November 22, 2007, 09:34:01 PM No. At least I don't think so. It was a serious movie
Someone throws trash on the ground and the camera pans over to the Indian who has a tear going down his cheek. "The Simpsons" made fun of it in one of their episodes. Regardless, I'm going OT. While I'm here I want to share an opion piece that was in the NYT yesterday that really struck me as profound. Quote from: Thomas Friedman Watching Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice making repeated trips to Israel to try to broker some kind of deal between Israelis and Palestinians, while Iraq remains politically unresolved, leaves me feeling like my house is burning down and the fire department has decided to stop along the way to get two cats out of a tree. At one level, I just don’t get it. It’s clear that the surge by U.S. troops has really dampened violence in Iraq. So don’t we now need a surge in diplomacy to finish the job? It often feels to me as if Secretary Rice just wants to keep Iraq at arm’s length and hope that it will somehow end up on someone else’s report card. If you were President Bush and your whole legacy was riding on the outcome of this war, wouldn’t you be sending your top diplomat to Baghdad to work with Iraqis and their neighbors to broker a political settlement and not let them grow complacent that they have an open-ended commitment from the American people? (It makes you glad Democrats are still banging their drum.) But then I talk to people in Baghdad and look at what is really evolving there and I say to myself: “Maybe you’re missing something that Secretary Rice knows — that there isn’t going to be any formal political reconciliation moment in Iraq, grand bargain or White House signing ceremony. The surge has made Iraq safe, not for formal political reconciliation yet, but safe for an ‘A.T.M. peace.’ ” THE REST (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/21/opinion/21friedman.html)... if you're interested. I just think he does a good job of not asserting any opinion, but rather asks legitmate questions about the future... and kinda exposes how we're all working "without a net". Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Patton on November 23, 2007, 07:37:25 AM Patton, If the truth is essential now, it is also essential to shed light on how we got into this situation. Can you expose the lies keeping us in Iraq without also exposing the lies that took us there? I don't think the American people can be fully empowered with self-government and prevent debacles like this in the future if we are kept in the dark about how and why we were misled into Iraq. Nor can we hope to resolve the current situation if the public continues to believe a false premise. I would much rather focus on the present and future for the time being...I don't want any resources we have at playing the "blame game" that could be used on "where to go from here".....what I want most is for those running for President tell us why we will never leave Iraq. By willfully ignoring the "Elephant in the room"....they present to a largely uninformed public that we will eventually leave...they play on the complacency of the largely uninformed public...after all, since those running ON BOTH SIDES don't speak of this, then there must be no problem, right?...the debates demonstrate they all present this "carrot" to the public, the "carrot" being that we will "eventually" leave Iraq...and because NO ONE presents the questions I pose to them, they do not understand we will never leave, most likely can't leave (because of oil) and eat the "carrot"...... Quote Unfortunately, none of this can be extricated from partisan electoral politics. If everything surrounding this mess were as fully exposed as one could hope for, politicians would take advantage of it any way they can. Which is why ALL of them are quiet on the reality of never being able to leave Iraq... Wouldn't you think those running for President would exploit the most negative aspect of the war in Iraq (the failed policy of an unpopular President), the fact we can never leave, if it benefitted them? How would telling the American people the truth... "My fellow Americans, we cannot chance the worlds second largest oil reserves to fall into the hands of those who would do America harm, therefore we must remain in Iraq indefinitely to preserve American security intrests" How would saying this benefit anyone running for President? That's why they don't say it.....ANY of them. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Patton on November 23, 2007, 07:44:15 AM I feel like that Indian that cries at the end of that movie (that I can't think of). Probably because it was before you were born. It wasn't a movie, it was a public service ad on littering. Iron Eyes Cody is the "crying indian"...... http://www.aef.com/exhibits/social_responsibility/ad_council/2278 Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Patton on November 23, 2007, 07:55:44 AM While I'm here I want to share an opion piece that was in the NYT yesterday that really struck me as profound. Quote from: Thomas Friedman Watching Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice making repeated trips to Israel to try to broker some kind of deal between Israelis and Palestinians, while Iraq remains politically unresolved, leaves me feeling like my house is burning down and the fire department has decided to stop along the way to get two cats out of a tree. At one level, I just don’t get it. It’s clear that the surge by U.S. troops has really dampened violence in Iraq. So don’t we now need a surge in diplomacy to finish the job? It often feels to me as if Secretary Rice just wants to keep Iraq at arm’s length and hope that it will somehow end up on someone else’s report card. If you were President Bush and your whole legacy was riding on the outcome of this war, wouldn’t you be sending your top diplomat to Baghdad to work with Iraqis and their neighbors to broker a political settlement and not let them grow complacent that they have an open-ended commitment from the American people? (It makes you glad Democrats are still banging their drum.) But then I talk to people in Baghdad and look at what is really evolving there and I say to myself: “Maybe you’re missing something that Secretary Rice knows — that there isn’t going to be any formal political reconciliation moment in Iraq, grand bargain or White House signing ceremony. The surge has made Iraq safe, not for formal political reconciliation yet, but safe for an ‘A.T.M. peace.’ ” THE REST (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/21/opinion/21friedman.html)... if you're interested. I just think he does a good job of not asserting any opinion, but rather asks legitmate questions about the future... and kinda exposes how we're all working "without a net". If you take this in context with all my other posts, you can see how the diplomatic front is "smoke and mirrors"......that is why the US is not aggressively applying the thumb screws to the Iraqis to get their act together on the "benchmarks".....Condi knows we are not leaving, and whatever shred of dignity she has she wants to protect from this eventuality....after all, she enters the "real world" in a year or so..... IF the US leaves Iraq, whatever "stability" vanishes...centuries old sectarian hatred rises in the vacuum of our dust and the "Middle Eastern War Over The Worlds Second Largest Oil Reserve" begins. Those running for President have already figured out how to avoid this war......we stay....only they will not tell you this....ANY of them. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Citizen4Progress on November 23, 2007, 03:21:10 PM I would much rather focus on the present and future for the time being...I don't want any resources we have at playing the "blame game" that could be used on "where to go from here".....what I want most is for those running for President tell us why we will never leave Iraq. Well, I don't see how the public can be informed about why we are really in Iraq and at the same time be kept in the dark about how we got there. I don't think we lack the "resources" to do both, and I also think it is critically important to hold our elected leaders accountable if we want our representative democracy to function as intended.Quote from: Patton By willfully ignoring the "Elephant in the room"....they present to a largely uninformed public that we will eventually leave...they play on the complacency of the largely uninformed public...after all, since those running ON BOTH SIDES don't speak of this, then there must be no problem, right?...the debates demonstrate they all present this "carrot" to the public, the "carrot" being that we will "eventually" leave Iraq...and because NO ONE presents the questions I pose to them, they do not understand we will never leave, most likely can't leave (because of oil) and eat the "carrot"...... I don't buy the argument that we CAN'T leave Iraq because of the oil. Oil is a commodity. Oil-producing nations need to sell their commodity and we are a big customer. It's a matter of who controls the oil and profits the most from it. IMO our people in uniform are dying in Iraq not for our vital national interests but for the interests of BIG OIL and for the grandiose ambitions of PNAC neocons who belive we can and should remake the political landscape of the Middle East through the application of unchallengable US military power.If we spent as many taxpayer dollars on energy conservation and alternative fuels as we're spending in Iraq we'd be well on our way to ending our dependence on Middle East oil. Quote from: Citizen4Progress Unfortunately, none of this can be extricated from partisan electoral politics. If everything surrounding this mess were as fully exposed as one could hope for, politicians would take advantage of it any way they can. Quote from: Patton Which is why ALL of them are quiet on the reality of never being able to leave Iraq... Dennis Kucinich (http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/63036/) has been saying it for years. So has Ron Paul (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul303.html), but the political and mainstream media establishments have marginalized them to such a degree that they may as well be talking to a brick wall. These questions asked by Ron Paul (http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr091002.htm) before we invaded Iraq should have been the subject of vigorous debate on the House floor, but were essentially ignored.Wouldn't you think those running for President would exploit the most negative aspect of the war in Iraq (the failed policy of an unpopular President), the fact we can never leave, if it benefitted them? How would telling the American people the truth... "My fellow Americans, we cannot chance the worlds second largest oil reserves to fall into the hands of those who would do America harm, therefore we must remain in Iraq indefinitely to preserve American security intrests" How would saying this benefit anyone running for President? That's why they don't say it.....ANY of them. Patton, I'm not sure exactly where you stand on the issues of staying in Iraq and publicly acknowledging why. You state that we CAN'T leave (implying we SHOULDN'T leave) because of national security interests related to oil, while expressing disgust at our government officials for not admitting it's about the oil. What do you think such an admission would do for what little support remains for continuing to sacrifice lives and treasure in Iraq? What would be the diplomatic impact of an official policy of war for oil? If you really think we NEED to stay in Iraq for the oil, then you also need to recognize the political reality that the current official rationale (defeating terrorism and spreading democracy) have to be maintained. It would be interesting to see what would happen if our government leaders officially stated we are in Iraq for the oil. My guess is it would hasten our departure. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: freethinker on November 23, 2007, 03:56:42 PM C4P said:
Quote IMO our people in uniform are dying in Iraq not for our vital national interests but for the interests of BIG OIL and for the grandiose ambitions of PNAC neocons who belive we can and should remake the political landscape of the Middle East through the application of unchallengable US military power. APPLAUD!If we spent as many taxpayer dollars on energy conservation and alternative fuels as we're spending in Iraq we'd be well on our way to ending our dependence on Middle East oil. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Abraxas on November 23, 2007, 06:44:06 PM While I'm here I want to share an opion piece that was in the NYT yesterday that really struck me as profound. Quote from: Thomas Friedman Watching Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice making repeated trips to Israel to try to broker some kind of deal between Israelis and Palestinians, while Iraq remains politically unresolved, leaves me feeling like my house is burning down and the fire department has decided to stop along the way to get two cats out of a tree. At one level, I just don’t get it. It’s clear that the surge by U.S. troops has really dampened violence in Iraq. So don’t we now need a surge in diplomacy to finish the job? It often feels to me as if Secretary Rice just wants to keep Iraq at arm’s length and hope that it will somehow end up on someone else’s report card. If you were President Bush and your whole legacy was riding on the outcome of this war, wouldn’t you be sending your top diplomat to Baghdad to work with Iraqis and their neighbors to broker a political settlement and not let them grow complacent that they have an open-ended commitment from the American people? (It makes you glad Democrats are still banging their drum.) But then I talk to people in Baghdad and look at what is really evolving there and I say to myself: “Maybe you’re missing something that Secretary Rice knows — that there isn’t going to be any formal political reconciliation moment in Iraq, grand bargain or White House signing ceremony. The surge has made Iraq safe, not for formal political reconciliation yet, but safe for an ‘A.T.M. peace.’ ” THE REST (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/21/opinion/21friedman.html)... if you're interested. I just think he does a good job of not asserting any opinion, but rather asks legitmate questions about the future... and kinda exposes how we're all working "without a net". If you take this in context with all my other posts, you can see how the diplomatic front is "smoke and mirrors"......that is why the US is not aggressively applying the thumb screws to the Iraqis to get their act together on the "benchmarks".....Condi knows we are not leaving, and whatever shred of dignity she has she wants to protect from this eventuality....after all, she enters the "real world" in a year or so..... IF the US leaves Iraq, whatever "stability" vanishes...centuries old sectarian hatred rises in the vacuum of our dust and the "Middle Eastern War Over The Worlds Second Largest Oil Reserve" begins. Those running for President have already figured out how to avoid this war......we stay....only they will not tell you this....ANY of them. Couldn't agree more. I guess I should pay attention and find out what you and C4P are arguing about. And thanks for that other info. About the commercial. I would much rather focus on the present and future for the time being...I don't want any resources we have at playing the "blame game" that could be used on "where to go from here".....what I want most is for those running for President tell us why we will never leave Iraq. Well, I don't see how the public can be informed about why we are really in Iraq and at the same time be kept in the dark about how we got there. I don't think we lack the "resources" to do both, and I also think it is critically important to hold our elected leaders accountable if we want our representative democracy to function as intended.Since the blame game only creates further confusion and division here at home, and asking for ANYONE to actually hold accountability is a pipe dream, in my opinion. No, they'll never win any argument about blame, but they don't have to. They just have to keep us all VER confused for 15 years and then quetly die... or let us forget. I'm with Patton. I'm more concerned with the guy that gets stuck with the check at the end of the dinner and how they're going to pay it... not the guy that set up the invitations. I'd like to continue, but I have to go. Tomorrow I'll finish. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Citizen4Progress on November 24, 2007, 07:11:42 AM Quote from: Patton I would much rather focus on the present and future for the time being...I don't want any resources we have at playing the "blame game" that could be used on "where to go from here".....what I want most is for those running for President tell us why we will never leave Iraq. Quote from: Citizen4Progress Well, I don't see how the public can be informed about why we are really in Iraq and at the same time be kept in the dark about how we got there. I don't think we lack the "resources" to do both, and I also think it is critically important to hold our elected leaders accountable if we want our representative democracy to function as intended. Quote from: Abraxas Since the blame game only creates further confusion and division here at home, and asking for ANYONE to actually hold accountability is a pipe dream, in my opinion. No, they'll never win any argument about blame, but they don't have to. They just have to keep us all VER confused for 15 years and then quetly die... or let us forget. "blame game"? What about transparancy in government and being honest with the public?I'm with Patton. I'm more concerned with the guy that gets stuck with the check at the end of the dinner and how they're going to pay it... not the guy that set up the invitations. If you are pleased with what has transpired in Iraq since March 2003 and don't have a problem with the costs in blood, treasure, national reputation, and division at home, then by all means let's keep the American people VERY confused. That's how a representative democracy is supposed to work, right? You must have a lot of faith in the politicians in Washington and are impressed with the competent job the current administration has done if you think our national interests are best served by a confused, ignorant public and giving free reign to the architects of the current policy and the monied interests behind them. If this adventure in Iraq epitomizes the kind of government and foreign policy you want in the future, then go ahead and turn a blind eye to how we got into this mess. You get the government you deserve, and you can pretty much guarantee a steady stream of young Americans getting killed and maimed for Big Oil and for delusions of Pax Americana (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Pax_Americana). Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Abraxas on November 24, 2007, 10:53:14 AM Quote from: Patton I would much rather focus on the present and future for the time being...I don't want any resources we have at playing the "blame game" that could be used on "where to go from here".....what I want most is for those running for President tell us why we will never leave Iraq. Quote from: Citizen4Progress Well, I don't see how the public can be informed about why we are really in Iraq and at the same time be kept in the dark about how we got there. I don't think we lack the "resources" to do both, and I also think it is critically important to hold our elected leaders accountable if we want our representative democracy to function as intended. Quote from: Abraxas Since the blame game only creates further confusion and division here at home, and asking for ANYONE to actually hold accountability is a pipe dream, in my opinion. No, they'll never win any argument about blame, but they don't have to. They just have to keep us all VER confused for 15 years and then quetly die... or let us forget. "blame game"? What about transparancy in government and being honest with the public?I'm with Patton. I'm more concerned with the guy that gets stuck with the check at the end of the dinner and how they're going to pay it... not the guy that set up the invitations. Nothing would make me happier then to imprison ANYYONE responcible for what's happened... but there simply isn't enough support among the public, too many influential charecters in Congress to prevent action and simply not enough knowledge among the people involved. Again, it's a pipe dream, at it hurts me to say this and realize how disgusting our government has become... but it's true. Any attempt at acton will be stalled for decades and all we'll have done is wasted time, money and credibility. Quote from: C4P If you are pleased with what has transpired in Iraq since March 2003 and don't have a problem with the costs in blood, treasure, national reputation, and division at home, then by all means let's keep the American people VERY confused. That's how a representative democracy is supposed to work, right? You must have a lot of faith in the politicians in Washington and are impressed with the competent job the current administration has done if you think our national interests are best served by a confused, ignorant public and giving free reign to the architects of the current policy and the monied interests behind them. If this adventure in Iraq epitomizes the kind of government and foreign policy you want in the future, then go ahead and turn a blind eye to how we got into this mess. You get the government you deserve, and you can pretty much guarantee a steady stream of young Americans getting killed and maimed for Big Oil and for delusions of Pax Americana (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Pax_Americana). Don't play me to be the villain here. I'm not. I'm just a realist... or a pessimist. But nowadays it's hard to know the difference anymore. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Patton on November 24, 2007, 12:01:21 PM Well, I don't see how the public can be informed about why we are really in Iraq and at the same time be kept in the dark about how we got there. I don't think we lack the "resources" to do both, and I also think it is critically important to hold our elected leaders accountable if we want our representative democracy to function as intended. I think the American people will hold Republicans "accountable" and they will pay for Bush and his policies for some time to come...isn't that how our representative democracy functions as intended? If Democrats fail to take the White House and more seats in Congress, they will only have themselves to blame. Quote I don't buy the argument that we CAN'T leave Iraq because of the oil. Oil is a commodity. Oil-producing nations need to sell their commodity and we are a big customer. It's a matter of who controls the oil and profits the most from it. IMO our people in uniform are dying in Iraq not for our vital national interests but for the interests of BIG OIL and for the grandiose ambitions of PNAC neocons who belive we can and should remake the political landscape of the Middle East through the application of unchallengable US military power. If we spent as many taxpayer dollars on energy conservation and alternative fuels as we're spending in Iraq we'd be well on our way to ending our dependence on Middle East oil. This is "pie in the sky" or "ivory tower" thinking in my opinion.....which does absolutely nothing for the immediacy of the problem. Do we leave now in the hope we will accomplish this? How long are we to wait for "energy conservation and alternative fuels" directed at "ending our dependence on Middle East oil?" What happens in the interim while we wait to be "energy independent" from Middle East Oil? Do we just leave it to "chance" that everything will work out in our favor why we wait to be "energy independent?" The hard fact is we are dependent on Middle Eastern Oil and will likely remain so for a very long time...you have far more confidence we will wean ourselves from it than I do. Quote from: Citizen4Progress Patton, I'm not sure exactly where you stand on the issues of staying in Iraq and publicly acknowledging why. You state that we CAN'T leave (implying we SHOULDN'T leave) because of national security interests related to oil, while expressing disgust at our government officials for not admitting it's about the oil. What do you think such an admission would do for what little support remains for continuing to sacrifice lives and treasure in Iraq? What would be the diplomatic impact of an official policy of war for oil? If you really think we NEED to stay in Iraq for the oil, then you also need to recognize the political reality that the current official rationale (defeating terrorism and spreading democracy) have to be maintained. It would be interesting to see what would happen if our government leaders officially stated we are in Iraq for the oil. My guess is it would hasten our departure. Maybe then as a nation, we can decide where to go from here with the truth. I am a soldier, and will go where my country sends me whether I agree or not....but I think the very least any soldier deserves is to do it under the veil of truthfulness and from an "eyes wide open" position. The "smoke and mirrors" I allude to and the "the political reality that the current official rationale (defeating terrorism and spreading democracy) have to be maintained" you mention only muddies the waters for the real purpose of staying. Only with the truth about why we will stay can a conceintious and informed decision weighing the risks or benefits of leaving the worlds second largest reserves up for grabs can we move forward. Maybe the truth about why we are staying will provide the necessary impetus to rid ourselves of Middle Eastern Oil that you advocate. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Citizen4Progress on November 24, 2007, 12:12:01 PM Nothing would make me happier then to imprison ANYYONE responcible for what's happened... but there simply isn't enough support among the public, too many influential charecters in Congress to prevent action and simply not enough knowledge among the people involved. I disagree with your assessment, especially the part about credibility. I believe our government has lost credibility with a large percentage of Americans and also with most of the world. As long as our foreign policy is based on a false premise we cannot regain our credibility OR hope to formulate a foreign policy that serves our national interests and achieves the best possible outcome in Iraq.Again, it's a pipe dream, at it hurts me to say this and realize how disgusting our government has become... but it's true. Any attempt at acton will be stalled for decades and all we'll have done is wasted time, money and credibility. We are not faced with a choice of exposing past misdeeds or working on the problems of the present. The two are inextricably linked. Our system of government is damaged. It needs repair. Making a conscious decision to ignore how the damage was done is not the way to solve the resultant problems or to ensure a more functional government going forward. Quite the opposite. Failure to expose the machinations that took us into Iraq is tacit approval that solidifies the damage. I am less interested in punishing the perpetrators than fixing the damage. The latter is imperative, while the former is a natural consequence of doing what is necessary. You say there isn't enough public support. I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Shed light on the situation, and a public that has been kept in the dark will be supportive. Don't play me to be the villain here. I'm not. I didn't intend to play you as the villain. The villains (in the context of our dysfunctional government) are in Washington DC. I apologize for the sarcasm I directed at you, but I really think there is some truth in the concept that we get the government we deserve. When most citizens don't make an effort to inform themselves or participate and when intelligent, informed citizens tacitly approve gross misconduct and/or incompetence in their government, they have abdicated their civic duties much as Congress abdicated their Constitutional mandate in matters of war.I'm just a realist... or a pessimist. But nowadays it's hard to know the difference anymore. America became the greatest country in the world because of Founders who prevailed against great odds and because of a can-do attitude and hard work by people who never lost sight of our highest ideals. As a nation we have overcome problems much greater than the ones we now face. We must not let our own pessimism be a major obstacle to doing what is required of our generation. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Citizen4Progress on November 24, 2007, 12:23:27 PM Well, I don't see how the public can be informed about why we are really in Iraq and at the same time be kept in the dark about how we got there. I don't think we lack the "resources" to do both, and I also think it is critically important to hold our elected leaders accountable if we want our representative democracy to function as intended. I think the American people will hold Republicans "accountable" and they will pay for Bush and his policies for some time to come...isn't that how our representative democracy functions as intended? If Democrats fail to take the White House and more seats in Congress, they will only have themselves to blame. Will Democratic success at the polls resulting from voter backlash against Republicans fix what is wrong in our government and achieve the best possible result in Iraq? If the Democrats fail they will indeed have themselves to blame, but this still doesn't solve our problems. The issues here go well beyond partisan electoral politics. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Abraxas on November 24, 2007, 12:42:23 PM I disagree with your assessment, especially the part about credibility. I believe our government has lost credibility with a large percentage of Americans and also with most of the world. As long as our foreign policy is based on a false premise we cannot regain our credibility OR hope to formulate a foreign policy that serves our national interests and achieves the best possible outcome in Iraq. The only solution is to elect a government that doesn't espouse foreign intervention at every turn. Aside from Ron Paul, and among the leading candidates, Obama is the closest I can see to a truely decent foreign policy strategy. If I can't have Ron Paul, I'll vote for Obama. But more and more this election is between Clinton and Guiliani. Obama just overtook Clinton in a recent poll, and THAT'S reassuring... but it's a pitance. My point is that while we (partly) deserve the government we elect, the guy we choose usually isn't the best candidate... just not the worst. Quote from: C4P We are not faced with a choice of exposing past misdeeds or working on the problems of the present. The two are inextricably linked. Our system of government is damaged. It needs repair. Making a conscious decision to ignore how the damage was done is not the way to solve the resultant problems or to ensure a more functional government going forward. Quite the opposite. Failure to expose the machinations that took us into Iraq is tacit approval that solidifies the damage. I am less interested in punishing the perpetrators than fixing the damage. The latter is imperative, while the former is a natural consequence of doing what is necessary. You say there isn't enough public support. I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Shed light on the situation, and a public that has been kept in the dark will be supportive. Again, the otherside just has to confuse everyone enough to make them not care. Just look at the Valery Plame thing. The ex-White House Press Secretary is coming out with a book that exposes some very dirty things that went on during that period in time... but no one cares anymore. The MSM destroyed that story by over-reporting on it and basically confusing everyone. I agree that FIXING the problem is more important than FINDING OUT who did what wrong, hence my (admittidly poor) metaphor about who has to take care of the "bill" after the dinner. I want to fix things and I want to elect a person who will fix it... but this gets harder and harder each year. Plus, I don't discuss politics except here because NO ONE my age could care less, so again... I'm at an impasse. I didn't intend to play you as the villain. The villains (in the context of our dysfunctional government) are in Washington DC. I apologize for the sarcasm I directed at you, but I really think there is some truth in the concept that we get the government we deserve. When most citizens don't make an effort to inform themselves or participate and when intelligent, informed citizens tacitly approve gross misconduct and/or incompetence in their government, they have abdicated their civic duties much as Congress abdicated their Constitutional mandate in matters of war. I completely agree that a more educated, or at the least, a more involved public could change the face of this country... but if you have ideas on how to motivate the public to care, I'd love to hear them... cause I'm out. Quote from: C4P America became the greatest country in the world because of Founders who prevailed against great odds and because of a can-do attitude and hard work by people who never lost sight of our highest ideals. As a nation we have overcome problems much greater than the ones we now face. We must not let our own pessimism be a major obstacle to doing what is required of our generation. This isn't the 40's anymore. This country has an angry, resentful and lazy public who would sooner complain about what's wrong than do anything to change it. I'm glad I found IAP a few years ago cause it's really opened up my eyes to all the issues in this country and has motivated me to act. I registered to vote, I'm motivated to elect a certain candidate and I want to actually use my vote to change things. Cogratulations, that's 1 down. Only 300,000,000+ to go. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Citizen4Progress on November 24, 2007, 12:53:25 PM I don't buy the argument that we CAN'T leave Iraq because of the oil. Oil is a commodity. Oil-producing nations need to sell their commodity and we are a big customer. It's a matter of who controls the oil and profits the most from it. IMO our people in uniform are dying in Iraq not for our vital national interests but for the interests of BIG OIL and for the grandiose ambitions of PNAC neocons who belive we can and should remake the political landscape of the Middle East through the application of unchallengable US military power. If we spent as many taxpayer dollars on energy conservation and alternative fuels as we're spending in Iraq we'd be well on our way to ending our dependence on Middle East oil. This is "pie in the sky" or "ivory tower" thinking in my opinion.....which does absolutely nothing for the immediacy of the problem. Do we leave now in the hope we will accomplish this? How long are we to wait for "energy conservation and alternative fuels" directed at "ending our dependence on Middle East oil?" What happens in the interim while we wait to be "energy independent" from Middle East Oil? Do we just leave it to "chance" that everything will work out in our favor why we wait to be "energy independent?" The hard fact is we are dependent on Middle Eastern Oil and will likely remain so for a very long time...you have far more confidence we will wean ourselves from it than I do. The fact is we have been getting enough oil with an Iraq that has been producing a fraction of its potential. The fact is we can still count on the biggest producers, our friends the Saudis, unless we do something really stupid like bomb Mecca in response to a terrorist attack (as Tancredo has suggested). The most likely scenario of the spigot being turned off is a U.S. attack on Iran, a country that could do plenty of damage to the spigot. The same people who gave us 4+ years of attrition in Iraq have long had their sights on Iran and have been escalating their rhetoric much as they did in the months preceding March 2003. The untapped reserves in Iraq represent untapped economic wealth, but it is not a weapon pointed at our heads. If those reserves did not exist, our economy would not crash as a result -- unless we continued to take no meaningful steps to wean ourselves from a finite resource. If we are sacrificing thousands of lives and upwards of $2 trillion over untapped Iraqi oil reserves, it is more a battle over wealth and power (for the elites who will reap the most benefit) than it is for the safety and economic security of the American people. It doesn't really matter what the reason is we invaded at this point, I'm done with the "blame game"...I am most concerned with how to extricate ourselves from an occupation that will continue to chew through economic resources like a buzzsaw....everyone is all relieved that the killing is down to what it was a year and a half ago...which is still alot of killing...and the primary factor in this is our presence...does ANYONE believe it will stay this way if we pull out COMPLETELY?...or are you all happy with a PERMANENT presence in the most inhospitable region to a democratic western Christian superpower on the planet? The Patton of two days ago seems to agree with me that we need to extricate ourselves from Iraq. The oil in Iraq is not ours. In the long run the people who live there will control it. If we try to control it through military force we will continue to drain economic resources that are better spent elsewhere. We will also continue to drain our military and diminish its preparedness for other crises that might arise. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Citizen4Progress on November 24, 2007, 01:02:43 PM Patton, I'm not sure exactly where you stand on the issues of staying in Iraq and publicly acknowledging why. You state that we CAN'T leave (implying we SHOULDN'T leave) because of national security interests related to oil, while expressing disgust at our government officials for not admitting it's about the oil. What do you think such an admission would do for what little support remains for continuing to sacrifice lives and treasure in Iraq? What would be the diplomatic impact of an official policy of war for oil? If you really think we NEED to stay in Iraq for the oil, then you also need to recognize the political reality that the current official rationale (defeating terrorism and spreading democracy) have to be maintained. It would be interesting to see what would happen if our government leaders officially stated we are in Iraq for the oil. My guess is it would hasten our departure. Maybe then as a nation, we can decide where to go from here with the truth. I am a soldier, and will go where my country sends me whether I agree or not....but I think the very least any soldier deserves is to do it under the veil of truthfulness and from an "eyes wide open" position. The "smoke and mirrors" I allude to and the "the political reality that the current official rationale (defeating terrorism and spreading democracy) have to be maintained" you mention only muddies the waters for the real purpose of staying. Only with the truth about why we will stay can a conceintious and informed decision weighing the risks or benefits of leaving the worlds second largest reserves up for grabs can we move forward. Maybe the truth about why we are staying will provide the necessary impetus to rid ourselves of Middle Eastern Oil that you advocate. Let me be clear about what I meant when I wrote "If you really think we NEED to stay in Iraq for the oil, then you also need to recognize the political reality that the current official rationale (defeating terrorism and spreading democracy) have to be maintained." I do not for one moment favor perpetuating the false rationale. I fully agree with you that our nation needs the truth and that our soldiers deserve the truth. I've been advocating shedding light on the truth throughout this thread -- the WHOLE truth. My thought was that the TRUTH would hasten our departure rather than keep us there. Who knows -- maybe if the American people could agree on what the truth IS we can find sufficient common ground and national will to do what is necessary to achieve the best possible result in Iraq AND extricate our soldiers from that "most inhospitable region to a democratic western Christian superpower." Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: FreeinTX on November 24, 2007, 01:10:21 PM One of the crowning arguments that Republicans like to use when debating Iraq is that Democrats *LOVE* bad news. No argument has ever made me more sick in my entire life. I mean seriously... how do you even argue with such a ridiculous statement? I have ALWAYS said that I hope I'm wrong about Iraq. I hope it can stabalize and I hope we can leave without a big power vacuum or some calamotous implosion. Well, crow never tasted so good: Quote from: New York Times Baghdad Starts to Exhale as Security Improves BAGHDAD, Nov. 19 — Five months ago, Suhaila al-Aasan lived in an oxygen tank factory with her husband and two sons, convinced that they would never go back to their apartment in Dora, a middle-class neighborhood in southern Baghdad. Today she is home again, cooking by a sunlit window, sleeping beneath her favorite wedding picture. And yet, she and her family are remarkably alone. The half-dozen other apartments in her building echo with emptiness and, on most days, Iraqi soldiers are the only neighbors she sees. “I feel happy,” she said, standing in her bedroom, between a flowered bedspread and a bullet hole in the wall. “But my happiness is not complete. We need more people to come back. We need more people to feel safe.” Mrs. Aasan, 45, a Shiite librarian with an easy laugh, is living at the far end of Baghdad’s tentative recovery. She is one of many Iraqis who in recent weeks have begun to test where they can go and what they can do when fear no longer controls their every move. The security improvements in most neighborhoods are real. Days now pass without a car bomb, after a high of 44 in the city in February. The number of bodies appearing on Baghdad’s streets has plummeted to about 5 a day, from as many as 35 eight months ago, and suicide bombings across Iraq fell to 16 in October, half the number of last summer and down sharply from a recent peak of 59 in March, the American military says. LINK for more (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/20/world/middleeast/20surge.html?ei=5065&en=7e7d43064c067b63&ex=1196226000&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print) And it's from the NYT, no less. You sound just like Lush Limbagh. Any time the slightest trend toward improvement occurs, this is what we hear. But then a month later, and it is far worse than it was. Okay Iraq is better because fewer troops were killed? Is that the good news? Yea, troops are dying at a slower rate than last month or the month before. Exxon couldn't break their record this quarter for record quarter profits, does that mean they are losing money? NO. Just because violence in some parts of the country are down, indicate ABSOLUTELY nothing. Maybe weather was bad. Maybe they are planning something big. aybe they are just waiting you out, like you argue they will do if we set a time table. Who knows? But what about dissentary? Is that down? Running water? Do more homes have it? Electricity? It is at pre-war levels yet? Do they get more than 8 hours a day of it? What about political progress? Any made at all? Did one of the many issues the Iraqi government disagree on get solved in the last 8 months? I remember hearing Lush say when the price of gas went from $2.50 to $2.25 a gallon, "See the price of gas is getting better, it's turning around." YEA, RIGHT!!!! One month of lowered violence, and all of the sudden, "THINGS ARE WORKING IN IRAQ." B-LLSH-T!!!!! And compared to 8 months ago? It was horrible then, so what if its a bit better than horrible. What is that terrible? Tragic? 16 suicide bombings and that is improved security? Give me a break. How about a month without a bombing? How far away are we from that? Current trends tend to indicate what, the end of time? Do you see us leaving Iraq in the next 6 months? That's what they said when we went in. Less than 6 months. Less than a BILLION dollars. Greated as LIBERATORS. Cake-walk. So are we back to that, yet? 6 more months? About a BILLION more dollars? Are we liked by the average Iraqi, yet? Is it easy now? PLEASE. Hey gas dropped a penny, I guess that back on the decline again, right? We should see $20 a barrel oil again any day now, right? Get back to $40 a barrel being the "ceiling" like it was in 2002? FreeinTX Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Citizen4Progress on November 24, 2007, 03:07:56 PM I disagree with your assessment, especially the part about credibility. I believe our government has lost credibility with a large percentage of Americans and also with most of the world. As long as our foreign policy is based on a false premise we cannot regain our credibility OR hope to formulate a foreign policy that serves our national interests and achieves the best possible outcome in Iraq. The only solution is to elect a government that doesn't espouse foreign intervention at every turn. Aside from Ron Paul, and among the leading candidates, Obama is the closest I can see to a truely decent foreign policy strategy. If I can't have Ron Paul, I'll vote for Obama. But more and more this election is between Clinton and Guiliani. Obama just overtook Clinton in a recent poll, and THAT'S reassuring... but it's a pitance. My point is that while we (partly) deserve the government we elect, the guy we choose usually isn't the best candidate... just not the worst. I've never liked Hillary Clinton. She is (gasp!) a shrewd, calculating, ambitious politician (not exactly a rare species in Washington). She is portrayed by the right as evil incarnate, while the far left villifies her as a triangulating centrist whose rhetoric about getting us out of Iraq is belied by her stated intent to keep some comabt troops in Iraq for missions against al Qaeda. Believe it or not, although I am dead-set against a permanent U.S. military presence in Iraq, I agree with Clinton that combat troops are necessary (at least in the short term) for missions against al Qaeda. The post that started this thread pointed out the recent security gains in Baghdad and other former hot spots of Sunni insurgent activity. These gains are largely due to a significant development -- Iraqi Sunni tribal leaders and insurgents have turned against al Qaeda. This was perhaps inevitable, because the Sunnis who formerly ruled Iraq are Arab nationalists -- not radical Islamic fundamentalists. Their goals for Iraq's future are at odds with al Qaeda's. In any event, former Sunni insurgents are turning to the U.S. military for help in defeating al Qaeda. If Iraq is to have any chance at stability, al Qaeda in Iraq needs to be defeated. Though always a small percentage of the insurgency, al Qaeda was responsible for a lot of the bombings -- including the Golden Mosque bombing at Samarra, which triggered a major escalation in the civil war between Sunnis and Shiites. Our invasion and occupation of Iraq opened the door to al Qaeda and set in motion years of chaos and bloodshed. We are obligated to assist in this new opportunity to achieve stability. We also need to repudiate the policy of "preemptive" war, permanent military bases in Iraq, and our designs on their oil. Title: Re: This crow tastes good... Post by: Patton on November 24, 2007, 06:05:40 PM C4P I have enjoyed this...and wish to respond...I must leave for a week, return next Friday night.
I hope this thread stays alive until I return. Peace.
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