Whether they realize it or not they didn't put their faith in God, they put their faith into a cult leader who told them what God wants (as if he would know - he doesn't).

999 times out of 1000 that's were the trouble begins.


Ahk

^^ S'actly what I'm talking about. I'm sure some completely lunatic people will come here to try and compare this with G.I.-Joe cartoons, and it's not as though there's zero simularity there, but at the end of the day it's simply not the same. Not by a long shot. To make arguments that they are the same is instant sign of insanity, delusion or insincerity.

This is why we won't see peace there in our life time. Not because of the Americans. Not because Israel "won't play nice", but because these people have decided to sign themselves up for another 2000 years of getting kicked around (Gaza has not been "free" since 750 BC). They think they are training their kids to fight and win. They are training them to die. How can somoene come here and boo-hoo-hoo the 'terrible fate of Palestinain children and their mortality rate" when they are taught from the moment they can speak that to die is to win.

No. To die is just to die.


Ahk

It's going to be a very long time before we see someone with this level of credibility and integrity.




Maybe a hundred years.

Ahk

Welcome.

<shrugs> by ignoring them? The reason the youth won't be successful is because the right-wing elements in Iran are fed and supplied with a reason to exist by the right-wing elements in the West. Bush says, "We might need to bomb Iran because i can't think of any other way and I can't think of anything else more iportant".

Alternatively the right-wing elements in Iran can point to an admittedly scary individuals like Cheny or Bush and say to their people, "See? You need a tough talking right-wing party to protect you". And it works. The two systems feed off each other.

Ignore Iran and the original reason for the Mullahs disappears -- along with their power.



Ahk

I'll take you up on this one but you're going to have to wait until later.

What Native American land? When my ancestors came here they asked the local tribes "are you using this land?", and they replied, "No. Go ahead....and Hey! Nice rifle! Can I have one?". They just didnt concieve there'd be millions coming afterwards, and frankly neither did the colonists.

If it wasn't Europe that colonized America it would've been the Japanese. Believe me they would've had no problem executing full out genocide. This is similar to the fact that if it wasn't Israel or the British or the Americans or the Palestinians themselves, it would be the Egyptians or the Arabs or the Persians who would be butt-fucking the Pal's into submission right now. The free city state of Gaza (closest thing to the original pal's) have NEVER (not once in 5000 years) been "free". So you can take the "white Euro nazi" shit and stuff it.

Truth is the 400000 natives that inhabited North America from the north pole to the rio grande actually don't have the right to all that land -- they would've been the first to admit it, and un-like the way the East invaded Europe for centuries under one ruler or another (monglols, timurids to a lesser degree the Persians), Europe didn't simply kill all they encountered. So one culture overtakes another...what's your point? History sucks?

Profits from slavery? I don't know why you're talking to me about that but if it is your intention to seperate one instance of slavery from 5000 years of slavery history in order to sound like you have a point -- well good luck. I suppose you're one of those nobs who figures "morality" brought an end to slavery when it was technology and the the fact that it was no longer cheap. Lose all the machines in the world today and boom! -- we'd be right back to slavery.....or perhaps you figure minimum wage isnt slavery? At any rate your moral ramblings about slavery are misplaced. I'm not from the South and besides, historically it doesn't fit.

I have an idea: why not pick a subject matter and stick with it instead of swerving all over the self-rightious "my-shit-doesn't-stink-you're-all-to-blame" road? Or are you under the impression you're the first to consider these things? You'll pardon the observation but you do not at all sound like a history student. Your conclusions seem too typically simplistic and short-sighted. For example historians rarely judge north American slavery as though it was an isolated American invention. Historians know better. People who simply regurgitate other uneducated opinions because they sound cool and it's easier than reading a book or two themselves are typically the ones to cry "North American Profit-Slavery".



Ahk

No my immediate response is to point out YOUR propaganda.

What is "Fascinating", Mr. Spock, is you talking about how things aren't one-sided and then go on to be completely one-sided. That was my point.

An intelligent person would've gotten that.


<Yawn> Wrong.


Uhh no. YOU make it personal. I never made it personal. You are smug, arrogant with no particular reason to be so, you're not as smart as you like to think you are, and you're the one that makes things "personal". Just review what you've written. And I have nothing to do with Terry or Realityman. If either pipes up in agreement with something I wrote I have jack-all to do with it.

Uhhh, no. You just want to bicker and argue like a teenager while trying to control everything involved in any discussion. I made points that you passed right over...probably on purpose.


Oh sure. That's exactly what I think.

What a pompous windbag. Get over yourself.


Ahk

lol. Yeah. No propaganda coming from Hamas or PLO or Palestinians. No fake bodies, no mugging for the camera. No telling the west they just want peace but telling everyone else that "victory is Israelis suffer".
Sorry Callum but guys like you who just throw their hands over their ears, call facts propaganda and refuse to acknowledge even an inch of Palestinian or Arab responsibility just make me laugh. That's about it. There's never any use talking to guys like you.



1000 times eh? lol.No propaganda or acting as though the problem were all one-sided there. That sounds kinda like a point but not really. If you start an incident of hostility by lobbing a rocket into my territory and my response is to lob 10 rockets back well tough shit for you. Stop lobbing the rockets. If a smaller guy walks into a bar and kicks some guy 2' and 100lbs heavier than him in the balls is he a victim when the predictable happens?
Simply lining up statistics does not actually say what you imply it does.

Consider that.

I agree. Ditto to the land where the happiest mother is the one of a martyr. They show you one face begging for mercy and help and "All we want is peace" and another one entirely when you're not looking. They've brainwashed themselves into a 'forever war' - generation after generation - that regardless of whether you're willing to admit it or not -- will not and can not live with Israel.....

So actually I'm still waiting to see sincerity towards negotiations from Hamas and Gaza.


Originally I was simply laughing at Pistachios usual ambiguousness and vauge simplification. It wasn't "not enough land" (according to who? All peace requires a compromise) -- How about, "the land was all in the wrong spots" or "not homogeneous -- broken into little zones". That would make more sense.

Really makes me ill watching people write about how "as if the problem was all one-sided" and yet never make a single argument on the subject that isn't one sided or their own propaganda. Guys like you and Pistachios --- Palestinians can do no-wrong. To guys like you "underdog" = "morally righteous", and it doesn't.




Ahk

I agree 100% Gain.

Half the world is dying because they aren't getting enough to eat, the other half is dying because they eat too much crap.

While we're at it, half of the world is dying because they work too hard and the other half isn't getting enough exercise/movement while at work.



Ahk

Is that really it though? Any other parents and there would be no debate, but because this is a question of 'faith'  it's okay. I do not see this as a 'freedom" issue any more than someone has the 'freedom' to kill gay people because 'God told me too'. I would ask that we be careful with the answering that point. Details are only details but the premise is the same. Why is this a crime for any other family but not for them? What about the mother who says "God told me to lock my child in the basement". This really happened somewhere (I forget where).
Why is she crazy and these parents are simply exercising choice or freedom of religion?



(naturally I was being cynical about the sterilization and obviously i would've meant before the fact. But there would be debate whether or not to steralize retarded people on the basis they would not be able to properly care for their children -- I see no difference here.)

Ahk

I'm sorry guys but this part really gets me:


So they relied on faith and prayer to keep her from having a seizure.
Then they relied on faith and prayer that it wont lead to a coma.
Then they relied on faith and prayer that the coma wont lead to death.

...but the moment it becomes a reality...the moment her heart stops now's the time to throw God's will and faith out the window and defy God by relying on some good medical training to try and save her.

What bastards. They tortured their daughter to death in the name of a faith they obviously don't really believe in. They let her suffer and die her over vanity. Nail them to a tree.



Ahk

Absolutely this is child abuse. This is not some obscure refusal to allow a blood transfusion or the like. All they had to do was observe a diagnosis and feed her properly.

Where in the Bible does it say "Screw the diabetes....I (God) order you to eat more sugar"?

Nowhere. It's a clear case of neglect (refusal to simply seek out advice on how to live with diabetes) and in my opinion this is one step removed from manslaughter:


Nowhere anywhere does any religion I know of command you to simply "not take your child to the hospital when she's in a coma". I can understand refusing blood transfusion but they could've prevented this with a cookie -- or one less cookie, if only they had the intelligence to step outside their religion for 2 seconds in order to find out what they (from a dietary perspective) can do to prevent this from happening. This is a clear case of neglect leading to death and God has nothing to do with it --- and if he does, then I'm sure the parents won't mind spending the rest of their lives in prison for their beliefs. After all they were willing to kill their child for them.


If this isn't murder/manslaughter/child abuse, then I fail to see how anyone should be punished for murder if they simply claim "God told me to do it".


Disgusting. Vile. Cowardly.

Further:

Oh. So it's okay to perform CPR ....but wait! I thought if God wants her she's a goner and performing CPR to save her is just a sin. No? Do I have that wrong? But it would be a sin to take the child to emergency and let a doctor perform CPR, right? What a load of crap. People like this need to be sterilized.




Ahk

lol.


Oh. Is that why they don't work.





Ahk

Has anyone ever considered that since the Mayans couldn't predict their own demise that they perhaps make piss-poor Oracles?






Just sayin',
Ahk