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3496  Assistance and Feedback / The Lobbyist (Off Topic) / Re: Things that piss you off.... on: October 10, 2007, 12:57:31 PM
... you had a lot of time to think about that, mic, didn't you Wink .
3497  Political Discussions / United States / Re: Republican Debate on MSNBC on: October 10, 2007, 12:56:45 PM
OK, So MSNBC and the repune candidates are willing to debate on it with its undeniable liberal slant and yet the Dems get a pass for not going on Fox huh?

Nice

Aw... for fuck's sake, man. Can we just talk about the debate. Please?

Probably not, atleast i can't since I did not watch it.

Then with all due respect, how do you even know the debate was slanted in anyway?

I didn't watch it either, so I can't say anything else.
3498  Political Discussions / United States / Re: Here's a topic that has probably never come up... on: October 10, 2007, 12:54:48 PM

Personally, the only person who should be allowed to make that choice is the patient. It's their life, and while I don't discourage extreme consultation before considering physician assisted suicide, it is ultimately the choice of the patient... not the family.

What if you are incapacitated?

How do you mean? Mentally?

How incompactitated are we talking? Depression? Downsyndrom?

Stroke...Alzheimers...TBI  with quadriplegia...

I think the family would offer a compelling argument why that person should live - hopefully an argument that comes out in consultation and deep thought... but in the end, the only person who has a right to control your life is you.

Quote from: Patton
Depression is not "incapacitation"...and Downs is something you are born with...and they are not "incapacitated" either.

I was under the impression you meant any desease that impacts on someone's ability to think clearly.

My bad.
3499  Political Discussions / United States / Re: Pat Dobson v Giuliani on: October 10, 2007, 12:43:25 PM
A pro-choice candidate will NEVER get the nomination. It simply will never happen. It'll cut the party in half between the radical pro-lifers and the moderates...

Politics is a funny animal....primaries are different than the general election.

Right. At the RNC only the Republicans are voting, and while a majority may like him a stronger base despises him. Can you imagine what will happen if the Evangelicals don't vote, or worse vote for Democrats because Guilani or McCain got the nomination?

The party would split in half, garunteeing Democrat control until they get their act together, which could be a very long time.

Also watch for abortion, and a health care "crisis" to become more of an issue than Iraq and the GWOT...Watch for those who accuse people of fearmongering, and based thier policies upon a withdraw from Iraq to make abortion and healthcare the biggest "problems" that we face.


My ticket, as of now would be Guiliani/McCain....possibly another VP with McCin as SecDef.

I used to think that... but even though the RNC is a ways away MANY questions are arising about each of their's view on abortion... and even more animosity.

I'm thinking Thompson (which scares me considering he really hasn't actually DONE anything) or maybe even Romney, if people can get over the fact that he's not a "regular Christian".

The GOP has to slobber before the Dobsons and the Pat Robertsons while the Democrats have to slobber before the Jesse Jacksons and the Al Sharptons. Disgusting in both cases. Ministers, priests, rabbis, and other clerics should be banned from involvement in politics.

OswaldTheOsprey

Precisely.
3500  Social Discussions / Philosophy and Religion / Re: Atheism: the real beef on: October 10, 2007, 12:33:04 PM
They are observations I would like you to take into account in your ongoing analysis.  Since they are not purported to be your position, they cannot be a strawman argument.

They are set forth to frame consideration of the question: Don't you think it is very often reasonable to believe something that you cannot prove beyond doubt?

As for your question, no. Does this discourage the search, though? No.

However, until positive proof exists, believing it to be true is innapropraite and presumptuous.

So, your proof is not irrefutable.  As I noted, having a doubt doesn't mean your conclusion is incorrect.  That is the point.

Given your recent statement to RF

Can I prove with data? No.

However, an investigation which supplies propper analysis and tests shows that you are a human. The scientific method has been put to the test and my "hypothesis" that you exist is as close to fact as fact can get.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary, aside from the fact that we have never met face to face? What evidence exists that you are not real?

I come to the conclusion that no conclusion can be determined.

Sounds Agnostic.

The next step is to realize that there is no positive proof to say that God exists and worshipping a figure who may or may not be real seems unwise.
3501  Political Discussions / United States / Re: Another democRat "phony soldier" exposed on: October 10, 2007, 12:22:27 PM
For one dimocrats....this thread is not about Bush...so get back on topic....

Actually, according to your original post, it WAS about Bush.

"Wonder why this is so important? Remember how you liberals accused Bush of being AWOL but cried like little sissies when Kerry's service was put to question? Well it seems that democrats have a problem with making up military careers not only to pad their resume but also to cheat taxpayers out of our money......crooks and liars...the democRatic way....."

YOU said it was important and mentioned Bush first. We just commented on your topic.

Quote from: Dog Face 11B
two, wonder why not one of you guys have addressed this democrat caught lying and admitting he lied about his military service.

three, even though you guys may like to believe that Bush didnt serve, at least he took the test and passed it, was a flier and never lied saying he was in Vietnam like democrat McBee who claimed he was a Ranger in Iraq or in the elite Special Forces unit like democrat Robert Levy.

WHAT!? A Democrat lied? Say it ain't so.

Roll Eyes

I hate when we go through these stupid threads. ALL politicians, regardless of party, lie to save power. In a week we'll have a post up here about a Republican in a similar situation... so why do I bother...
3502  Political Discussions / United States / Re: Why SHOULD the rich pay more for taxes? on: October 10, 2007, 12:14:11 PM
They benefit the most from the government, they ought to pay for the priviledge.

However they, like every other American, should be taxed fairly.

Should they pay more taxes than a poor person? Absolutely. Should they pay a higher percentage of their money? Absolutely not.

A national sales tax.

This has been something I have liked in the past, but the rumor is that this tax would be, like, 30%.

note: I don't know this for sure.

Quote from: Toaster
A tax on income is bad. Always.

Instead, tax spending - everybody spends. Money saved isn't taxed, profits made aren't taxed.

Instead, tax is at purchase time with a low, flat national tax and EVERYBODY PAYS THE SAME TAX ON EVER DOLLAR THEY SPEND.

Drug dealers buy cars, clothes, etc. Hey, we get a chunk of their money.

Rich people buy more stuff, but they don't have to - they can libve frugally and pay less tax, or they can spend it like water.

We would pay less, the IRS could be abolished and we capture income from criminals much better than we do now.

Very good points.

*applaud*

And welcome to IAP.
3503  Political Discussions / United States / Re: Ron Paul's Rise on: October 10, 2007, 10:24:33 AM
Quote from: 5uperChicken
well, there's about 20 bucks and change from his intellectual peers waiting for ya out there if you ever need it. To say Noam hasn't been thourghly debunked is like saying Bush has not made any mistakes...and he communicates his ideas eloquentley, with great substance.

I read Chomsky and I haven't found anyone who writes to his contrary. If Coulter makes an innacuracy it's usually on the net in some editorial. I haven't found such editorials about Chomsky.

Do you have any?

Note, I'm asking this out of pure honesty. I really haven't found any.

Quote from: 5uperChicken
Actual war. Armies, under a flag...whose leaders are responsible for their actions.
No ME countries attacked us. Afghanistan was attacked beacause after 9/11, they officially stated that OBL was a guest in their country, and that it was against Muslim tradition to hand him over. This was a quiet slap at OUR laws that we have used to protect people all over the world. This was radical Islam joining the proxy war game, The same game we play... and the axis of evil are the puppetmasters...They're end game being to attack America (not it's ArmyYOU are the target) for control of global enegry resources in the region,(before ya get all noamy on me, in case you haven't noticed, we do not control them) and to destroy Israel and kill every Jew on Earth, based upon a twisted, barbaric interpretation of they're religion. These people do not wake up, have a cup of coffee and decide based upon our actions how much pressure they're going to exert today. It's kill the infidels all day long. It is not about proxy war being fair, and finding a way to stop it, or who's screwing who, it's about what do you do when you are the target. I don't see where you'll support or defend American interests beyond it's borders, or even inside it's borders 100% of the time.

I don't understand why "radical Islam" was never a real part of our foreign policy in the past. Suddenly it'll be Armagedden if we ignore them? Plus, are you the kind of person that thinks "if we don't fight them there we will fight them here"? Cause if you do, I ask that you analyze the conflict in Iraq a little bit better. You do know that Iraq, while full of potential terrorists, is mostly just Shiites fighting Sunnis with us in the middle?

We planted ourselves in about a dozen foreign conflicts pretending to be helping everyone involved, which earns us about 2 dozen new enemies that want to hurt the US.

Tell me how we are safer.

Quote from: 5uperChicken
That's weird, because I remember my parents RIVETED to the TV, while Iran begged to have it's teeth kicked in, in 1979. I remember 10 years later, when I was your age...this:

NYT Aug 1, 1989
A terrorist group in Lebanon said today that it had hanged a hostage Marine colonel, and distributed a grisly videotape that showed a figure identified as the American twisting at the end of a rope.

A terrorist group in Lebanon said today that it had hanged a hostage Marine colonel, and distributed a grisly videotape that showed a figure identified as the American twisting at the end of a rope.

A second group, one of many Shiite Muslim cells with links to the Party of God, a pro-Iranian organization in Lebanon, threatened to kill a second American hostage by nightfall on Tuesday unless Israel freed a Muslim cleric abducted from Lebanon on Friday.

America out of the ME?, Weapon sales?

You do know why Iran did these things right? Do I have to retell American pushing the Shah to power? A Shah that nearly bankrupted their country and refused to do the will of his people?

Again, I'm not saying we deserved anything they did, but if you insist on forgetting the past, you're doomed repeat it.

Quote from: 5uperChicken
Quote from: Abraxas
Why? Cause the Communists are gone and the US needs another group to bully. This time it's the Middle East.

Wrong, wrong, and right.

Says you, but I see a dangerous pattern emerging where the US is only satisfied if it is at war with somebody. My guess that once the ME is "calm" we'll pick the Chinese.

Hell, we're already playing games with them.

Quote from: 5uperChicken
I don't think you're less than me, or bad...respectfully, I don't think you know the whole story.

The feeling is mutual.

Quote from: 5uperChicken
Nobody is pro-war, but I will say that more war earlier may have put us in a better position today. if Najaf and Sadr city had been surrounded, evacuated and reduced to smoldering ruin a long time ago. every moment of peace you ever enjoyed has been brought about by the destruction of cities. No I don't condone destroying cities, but i'm at least willing to take it on a case-by-case basis. thanks for the input.

Yeah, cause the Muslims, especially those radical types, respond to violence SOOOOOO well.

 Roll Eyes

Again, are you prepared to repeat history because you refuse to learn from it?
3504  Assistance and Feedback / The Lobbyist (Off Topic) / Re: Things that piss you off.... on: October 10, 2007, 10:05:42 AM
Oh my God, illy, I can't argue with a single thing you mentioned. Not a bit.


I hate Emo music... but my iPod is full of it. I hate the prepubecent voices that most of those singers have, but the lyrics and the melody, I think, are pretty good.
3505  Political Discussions / United States / Re: Pat Dobson v Giuliani on: October 09, 2007, 08:47:49 PM
A pro-choice candidate will NEVER get the nomination. It simply will never happen. It'll cut the party in half between the radical pro-lifers and the moderates...
3506  Political Discussions / United States / Re: Ron Paul's Rise on: October 09, 2007, 08:09:09 PM
Quote from: 5uperChicken
ahhh the debunking of Noam....if i had a nickel...

... you would still not have any nickels because you didn't actually debunk anything.

Quote from: 5uperChicken
Well, you don't see ME countries attacking America, or ANYBODY for that matter..other than looting and robbing eachother, for the last 14 centuries, from one end of the desert to the other.

You mean like in an actual war? Are you dim?

The ME has been in a constant state of war since the break up of the Ottoman Empire. What are you talking about?

Quote from: 5uperChicken
But you DO see muslim terrorists killing great Italians...like the HERO Fabrizio Quattrocchi.  you see them killing dutch, germans french, brits, poles turks koreans philipinos indonesians,aussies... Africa...the whole damn world is on fire...Do something, or do nothing? You see Swedish Muslims calling for attacks on their own country...it's everywhere, it's a global power struggle, not a pissed-off at America, otherwise peaceful society. you're muslim or you Dead....and honestley....just muslim might not work out too well.

You give them too much credit.

Until September 11th, Muslim radicalism was a footnote in national policy. Is it any surprise so much goes on when you're not looking? Now we're looking and it's suddenly the end of this country.

Why? Cause the Communists are gone and the US needs another group to bully. This time it's the Middle East.

Quote from: 5uperChicken
You can't just not support either side...doing nothing is basically an acceptance. Saying something and doing nothing might work once, but I think it's already been tried.

I support America and American interests. Iraq does not fit into that equation and neither does Iran. Afganistan did because of their involvement in September 11th, but it's apparent the government doesn't care much about that place anymore.

*I* care about this country. It's everyone else who wants to tie our defense down across an ocean and still from the future generations to pay for it that doesn't.
3507  Political Discussions / United States / Re: Republican Debate on MSNBC on: October 09, 2007, 07:34:24 PM
Darn... I didn't know.

Oh well. I'll check the highlights.
3508  High Society / Elections / Re: Election.... on: October 09, 2007, 07:03:00 PM
BALDAR! I was wondering when you would finally join us!
3509  Political Discussions / United States / Re: Smoking = bad, Murder = good on: October 09, 2007, 07:00:26 PM

If I feel compelled to smoke a cigerette (the urge has taken me over once or twice) I prefer Malbro Reds.

Camels taste like... well, camel poo...
3510  Political Discussions / United States / Re: Ron Paul's Rise on: October 09, 2007, 06:57:18 PM
Quote from: 5uperChicken
And then what happened?

I already said what happened.

Suddam turned his attention on Kuwait and stopped pressuring Iran. Read my sig to understand why the US jumped to defend Kuwait but not Iraqi citizens.

Quote from: 5uperChicken
...also who, more than the US and Great Britain have supported those people, at great peril to themselves, since that day? Guess what? We may have made some deals with the Turks in helping them. It doesn't mean that *we're* the fools if the turks go coo-coo for cocopuffs tomorrow.  Still worth it, IMO...quote me someday when Petraeus is advising the Limbaugh/Colter ticket.

I'm a little confused by your point. Could you clarify?

Quote from: 5uperChicken
I think it's US RUS GER in terms on money. The US sells the tech and the aircraft. There aren't very many Arabs or Persians running around with m-16's and humvees. My point is that they kill  Muslims everyday for not being Muslim enough. I don't think that islamic radicals are peaceloving, and I don't think that they care whether or not the rifles being used against them are stamped "Made in Yakdungistan", or not.

I think you're wrong.

You don't see Middle East countries attacking Italy... or Sweden.

Why? Cause they take great pains to avoid becoming involved and infrequently sell weapons, especially at the quantities in which the US is dishing them out.

Quote from: 5uperChicken
That was a strawman, you never said that...Sorry. what would you do, today, or as of nov. 08?

What-the-who is going to keep us safe?? FYI...US Navy EQUALS free, safe global trade..We pull back and the rules change for everybody.The information you *don't* exchange is what keeps you safe, and acting on intel is was makes intel worth more than the paper it's written on.

I'm not a total isolationist. I recognize that trade and information sharing is VITAL to US defense and never said anything to the contrary.

It's support Iraq to fight Iran I don't like. Or supporting Turkey to fight Kurds I don't like. It's supporting Jews to fight Palestinians. It's getting involved in conflicts that are older than our country that I want to stop.

Quote from: 5uperChicken
I can't vouch for your feelings, but I want you to feel safe, and I think it most definatley is in the interest of national security; what we are doing.

NSA reports that bely a strengthening anti-American sentiments in the Middle East, an increase in terrorist sympathizers and the migration of terrorists to train MORE cells says otherwise...
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