"According to Lebanese Army figures, 1660 airspace, water and land violations have taken place between May and the beginning of July 2008 what means that thousands of Israeli soldiers and officers had entered Lebanese territories to set targets and continue the psychological war against Lebanon."

Thank you for giving us the right to attack Israel any time we want because of their continuous "illegal unprovoked acts of war"

I am sure you will be on Lebanon's side if we do attack.

You can either look at the conflict from international law, OR you can look at it for what it actually is.



You don't say!!!!!!

I didn't know that the conflict started with Hizbullah in 1982 and will end with it. Thank you for furthering my knowledge. So I am to assume that the problems with the Israelis prior to the existence of Hizbullah were because Israel "anticipated" the birth of Hizbullah as it seems that everything revolves around it?

I can't wait for your next post. Could it be about Alice in Wonderland?

Crypto


Haha. You have known me for two years and you think I have no counter-argument? I can come up with them in my sleep because they are out there for everyone to see except for the willingly blind.

I attacked you because you made a very ignorant comment and based an entire argumentation on it. And because by reading your posts after your self-proclaimaing as an objective person, you reminded me of those preachers who spend their days preaching and then at night, become everything they preached against. You know, I even prepared a long post that could prove my points, but I decided against posting it. I can't be bothered with this conversation any longer.

Here are just a couple of links about the Israeli justice system you seem to blindly believe in.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/01/22/korman.court/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_Darweesh_Al_Hams

You can also google IDF and culture of impunity and see what you can get.

I am sure that if an American had been tried in Cuba, or an Israeli in Lebanon, you would take the judgment just as "objectively" as you did with the Israeli judgement of Kuntar.

Anyway, I have my own opinion of the Kuntar case that does not fall in any category mentioned so far. Just to prove that there is more than one, and even 2 ways of looking at this thing. For the really objective, that is.

It's easy to convince yourself to be objective and knowledgeable. The real challenge is to convince others.

Actually, I do not blame the West for any such thing. Lebanon exists for the same reason other countries around here exist and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I disapprove with people who want to give ANY party high morals, be it the US, Israel, the Arabs, the Palestinians, Hizbullah, or anyone else.

An area as wealthy and as strategic as the ME will only bring the worst in people. Human nature. I believe anyone talking about good samaritans (be it the West or anyone else) or talking about high morals (being Israel or anyone else) to be a simpleton that is totally disconnected from reality. Since this is a western forum, most like to give the west a GOOD role that I don't believe ANYONE to have. So I argue against what's there and come out as blaming the west.

I defy anyone to state that I ever argued in favor of an incident that caused unnecessary grief to the West or Israel by considering them evil or to be blamed for anything

Ok. I will tell you the reason for my posts. I haven't visited this forum for ages. So I am sitting home, sick, and I decide to see what has been going on there. And imagine my surprise!

2 years! 2 years I explain to you that Hizbullah took these soldiers not because they woke up one day and decided to kill Israelis, that this operation was not aimed to declare war to Israel, nor was it related to Israel's right to exist. It was to get back their people in an exchange of prisoners. And what is your first post, in none other than the very thread that shows that they wanted an exchange of prisoners, in the thread discussing, in detail, the exchange that took place:



2 years I explain to you (plural) that the exchange is a norm and it has happened for ever, that even Hassan Nasrallah's own son Hadi was delivered in a coffin many months after he was killed in none other than such a prisoner excahnge and what do I see?

Not only a bad precedent, but


2 years, and post in, post out, ever since the war was over and you need to remind yourself and others of the fact that:



As if your only consolation to come to terms with the outcome of the war was to keep reminding yourself of the fact that the people of Lebanon has lost too. It seems that it is your comfort zone. Not only that, but in a thread that is talking about human casualties, you conveniently forget the human casualties of that war and concentrate on the economic aspect. And IF you had been right about the economic impact of that war, it would have been ok. Even though a simple google search would have told that not 1 dollar was spent from the Lebanese treasury, and that millions came to Lebanon from Qatar, Iran, KSA and other Arab countries that we did not even feel the economic impact, not to mention that those millions were more than we would have expected from a full touristic season, you would have realized that this comment was only for your peace of mind.

Since that war, we have had the longest sit-in in the history of the country, spanning almost 18 months that closed Down Town Beirut, we have had assassinations, a war in a palestinian camp, presidential election deadlines, no president for over 4 months, a mini-war in Beirut, the Doha accord, the election of a president, a 97.3 % rise in tourism between June last year and this year, and you are stuck in a war that is no more than a dot in history for us because you do NOT update your information except when something happens that concerns Israel, so you miss major events and try to link dots while missing years at a time.

Many posts you and Crypto go on about how disgusting the people who are welcoming Kuntar are for welcoming a child killer, a convicted murderer, many posts Crypto claiming to be objective, BUT, in all objectivity, and before taking this as proof that all these people are disgusting, did it occur to you that these people, unlike you, do NOT believe in the Israeli legal system, and do NOT blindly believe in a ruling that was made in a court whereby the judge, jury, prosecution, witnessess AND defense were ALL Israeli, and they chose to believe Kuntar's version instead?

Noooo, it was easier to consider an entire population disgusting, many of whom have lost not one, but hundreds of children to the Israelis btw?

So yes, what I saw was people butchering facts to fit their opinion of the situation, instead of using facts to form or alter an opinion. I saw people who have convinced themselves they were objective whereas every post they made showed how subjective they were. Notice I did NOT attack Patton, because unlike you and Crypto, I did not have any lengthy conversations with him, I did NOT attack md or rub it in because I KNOW what he was feeling. But you and Crypto? Pathetic posts really.

You want to hate for the sake of hating, you want to delete facts and historical events because they do not fit your opinion and agenda, you want to convince yourself that someone actually has higher morals in this conflict, that's fine. You want to take sides is also fine. It is not a prerequisite to like Lebanon or Hizbullah, I do not even mind that you like Israel and take its side. BUT, in THIS particular thread, and on THIS particular subject, you willingly chose to dismiss facts and you refuse to admit that THIS particular incident, as proven by evidence and facts, was NOT unprovoked, was NOT a declaration of war, was NOT about Israel's right to exist and was ONLY about bringing people home.

Would Hizbullah launch an unecessary attack on Israel someday? Maybe, who knows. Would there be instances where such attacks would be unprovoked and related to Israel's right to exist? Maybe. And then, your current opinion would have some value and I may even agree with you

BUT THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE IS NOT, AS SHOWED BY EVIDENCE, AND IF YOU CHOOSE TO IGNORE EVIDENCE BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE IT, THEN YOU CHOOSE TO BE WILLINGLY IGNORANT. ALL I DID WAS TELL IT AS I SAW IT.

I will be happy to explain. For two years, I talked to you with respect, then I decided to stoop to your level. You needed a language you could understand.

Now I wish you would keep your word and start ignoring my posts because I don't want to keep coming back.

It doesn't bother me at all actually   

It's not like when you USED to read them it made any difference. You know what you know and you are happy with that. So enjoy your "knowledge".

It was mostly about you anyway, so all the better you didn't read it.

   That's because, unlike the person who made that post, you don't have issues with women.

I hadn't even read that post   . I skip some posters without bothering looking at what they say. I won't anymore. I missed all the entertainment.

Well till next time in a few months.....

Trust me, they're not.


If you knew anything about Lebanon as you say, you would know that I am NOT thinking "from my side of things" since I am maronite and "by definition" this means that I am against Hizbullah's weapons and ideology. And I am a non-Shiite Lebanese and as such, by definition "my side of things" means that I do not approve of any weapons that would make a Lebanese community stronger than mine. So if, as you claim, I had been looking from "my side of things", I would have supported the Israeli war against Hizbullah, and I would be doing everything I can to demonize it.

The fact that I don't speaks volumes about who has the higher moral values here.

It is NOT in my best interests for Hizbullah to be this strong, BUT it is in the best interests of the Shiites. So here you go. As a Lebanese Christian, I am against the weapons, however, had I been a Shiite, in the present situation, I would never give up my weapons. I hate the "thug" approach and this is what I feel the approach to Hizbullah is. I tried to explain the situation to you (and Crypto by the way) and I was very respectful at first because I thought that you didn't have all the facts to make an informed decision. However, now, your inability to analyze the situation in the ME, and the fact that you are stuck in the same logic for two years means that either you are not willing to or you are incapable of.

I will be attacking Hizbullah the moment I can answer this question in the affirmative:

Had I been a Lebanese Shiite, would I give up my weapons?

There is another question that need be answered: What would the impact of unconditional disarmament be on the Shiites?

The fact that you never thought about these two questions and you have no idea what it means for Hizbullah to disarm means that you haven't thought about the situation outside from a certain box AT ALL.

So the difference between you and me, is that when I want to give my opinion about Hizbullah or any other entity, I put myself in the shoes of the others and see what I would do in this situation.

You just say it is so and should be so and those who don't do as I say are terrorists and deserve to die.

Did you ever bother to learn about the History of the Shiites in Lebanon? To understand where they are coming from and what their fears are? Had you even heard of them before they were connected to Israel? Until you can see Hizbullah and the Shiites of Lebanon outside the Israeli connection, I reetirate that you know nothing and need an education.

I believe that Captain R should not be rewarded but then again, we don't all get what we want. And you can dislike Kuntar, I do not feel offended by that, but I do feel offended about your continuous insinuations about Lebanon and the bitterness that shows in every post concerning the outcome of the July war.



And here you go. You are stuck.  Your mind simply cannot function beyond this logic. A million times the same thing. Hizbullah is NOT about Israel only, and the Middle East is NOT about Israel only. The mere fact that you limit it to a conflict between Israel and "terrorists" shows how much you know. Get out of the dark side and good side mentality. You need to read this conflict as a mature person. Or not. It is not a prerequisite. It does take a lot of effort and the simple one-dimensional logic is much easier.


If I had thought you were worth talking to, I would have tried to explain like I used to. But honestly, I feel you are stuck and you just don't WANT to broaden your horizons. So I won't waste my summer here. Had I not been bored to death that day from staying home, I wouldn't even have bothered replying. I haven't even been online for ages.

I am sure you do. The cowboys and indians approach is theee way to understand the ME conflict.

Now, I would like to stay and chat, but my headache is gone, and my summer is still here. I would like to spend it on the beach instead. I just didn't want to leave unfinished business.

PS: I have always been open to any kind of conversation, and to do it in a civil way, but if, or whenever I decide to post here, things have changed. Not liking Lebanon or Hizbullah is fine by me. Any disrespect for the pain of the Lebanese or their dead or any hate speech wishing for coming wars and destruction of Lebanon will be faced with personal disrespect to the poster.

I was having trouble not understanding how you can't see how much your post is insensitive, but I guess it is difficult for you to grasp the humanitarian impact of the missing people.

This is a humanitarian file by excellence, and when you say something like what you said above, for people with firsthand experience, this seems like a very cold blooded thing to say.

And while you believe that it is hardly a huge body count considering that it is over a period of 30, the fact that it has been over 30 years makes the matter all the more inhuman.

It is not only about the dead. It is about the living. And it is not only about the sentimental value, and the fact that these people are burried in a mass grave on enemy land where you can't even visit, there is also a very pragmatic side to the file.

There are women who for 30 years, could not move on with their lives and leave the war behind and maybe remarry and start over because they are still legally married. There are children who remain in poverty because inheritance procedures cannot be made as the father is legally alive. There are entire families, brothers, sisters, wives and children, first, second and even 3rd generations all tangled in legal fights because of the missing person "that hardly counts". So much misery comes from not knowing if a person is dead or alive, both emotionally and legally, that with each passing year, the issue becomes more complicated and generations are destroyed.

So it would have been much much better if the body count were indeed for a year or two rather than for over a quarter of a century. And even if you like to assume that ALL those were terrorists until proven otherwise,(as this seems easier for you), unless you want to consider that the families of these people are all terrorists, including wives and children, then NOT seeing the insensitive meaning of your post is above me.

Maybe saying disgusting was a bit harsh, but this is disgusting in Lebanon because of the humanitarian aspect and it is considered inhumane to talk about the missing like this. But then you are American, and you can never understand the misery associated with war.

And the Israeli wives and children of the soldiers deserved the same. Would it have been better for them to wait 30 years only to say after that: OK, but it was only 2 over 30 years?

There are some very touchy subjects, and dead people are among those. While Americans love to talk numbers, Israelis and Lebanese are more about individuals. I am allergic to what you said above.

No they can't and this is the point. We and other Arab countries AND Israel ALL refuse to absorb them. So if they want to have a place on this planet and keep people from forgetting them and their plight, they have to keep fighting, unless America is by any chance willing to absorb them or until they or some surrounding country loses and is made to absorb them. Lebanon's root of the conflict is the Palestinians and we have been fighting for over 30 years. While I hate their guts and will go to hell and back again before allowing them to be absorbed in Lebanon, I can't really blame them for fighting to keep their cause alive. Put in their shoes, I would probably keep fighting too.

Why didn't you ask me the same questions when my post was about Syria? You were very positive and precise and quick to answer.

Hi Fred, ça va?

Of course I am ready for a fight. I do not believe that victims and criminals come with nationality  and it is time some understood it. 

It takes two


No argument there. I think Hizbullah's weapons will be a great bargaining tool in any peace negociations, don't you?
Say, in return for a country like belgium to open its doors for half a million palestinians from Lebanon 


They were branded terrorists when they were. And they still are. The Palestinians are armed, remember?

Tell that to the palestinians in the Lebanon and to everyone else BTW 

Thanks. Will be here as long as this thread is alive and the heat wave is out there   

I don't care about Israel's right to exist. I care about the explanation given as to why it was specifically that piece of land and why another population was thrown out to make room for the Jews. The reason given is that it's because they were there first and the people who were in their place are occupiers and it is justifiable to kill occupiers.

I was making a parallel as it seems to me that the only people in history who are branded terrorists for fighting their occupiers are Hizbullah and the only instance in history whereby the occupier is considered a victim and justified in killing and torturing the occupied and holding detention camps is Israel. I am curious as to how this branding thing works.


What would your replies be if my questions were:

1- Do you believe Hizbullah are terrorists for killing the Israelis during their occupation years of Lebanon?
2- Do you believe Israel was justified in torturing and imprisoning Lebanese people, because they disapproved of its presence in Lebanon and were fighting it?

Care to put your objectivity to the test?

   

Yes. Or to be sympathetic to their plight. The Israeli law allows the execution of Nazis and people who betray their country.

I don’t think you have a problem understanding that, do you?

Do you know how many members of the traitor SLA and their families Hizbullah killed after the Israeli withdrawal from South Lebanon? None. There are many who fled with the Israelis. Some came back. At best they spent a few months in prison. Now, we are working on bringing the rest of them back from Israel. That’s another file that is going to be closed soon hopefully. We don’t plan on executing any one of them. The only people who will stand trial are those who actually killed someone so they may decide not to come back afterall. Would an Israeli forgive someone who has done to them what the SLA did to the Shiites in the South?

Since the SLA are
a- traitors
b- torturers and killers

Would you think Hizbullah would be justified in executing them?