Winograd report after the July war


And BTW, how many times does the word war appear in the text?

You don't know what you are talking about Patton. Israel is the one who occupied Lebanon after an invasion.

When Syria entered Lebanon, it was not by invasion but upon Lebanon's request, and as part of Arab coalition forces. Upon accords, the Arabs left and Syrian forces stayed. So, basically, Hizbullah were more justified than the Christians 

All the posts made since the beginning of the offensive before I came here considered or better yet "automatically assumed" Hamas to have started the offensive and Israel was retaliating. YOu did not even bother to research the issue. If this isn't bias, I don't know what is. If this isn't telling that in your mind, whether consciously or not, you don't consider that it is not remotely possible, that there isn't even an infinite possibility that Israel might be the one to start it all when it suits her, then nothing else does.

Your credibility goes downhill from there.

Even your analysis and your entire military experience is being bended to suit your truth. They are not used to reach the truth.

Example one:

Already discussed. The Occupation of Lebanon by both Syria and Israel. It so happened that Israel occupied a Shiite area and Syria a Christian area. As a result, the Shiites faught Israel and the Christians fought Syria. Had the distribution been different, it would have been the Christians fighting Israel. The Christians are heroes because they fought who you consider "evil", and Hizbullah are terrorists because they fought who you consider "angels".

Example 2:
The july war. Hizbullah crossed the borders and took prisoners for the purpose of exchanging them with Lebanese prisoners and dead bodies (most taken prisoners from Lebanon or dying IN Lebanon). Hizbullah is terrorist and Israel was justfied in its response.

The Gaza war: Israel crosses the border, bombs a tunnel and kills Palestinian gunmen, and breaks a ceasefire in the process. You do not mention this fact, you accuse Hamas of starting it, and again Israel is justified and you accept the fact that all the news you get about that is from media controller Israel.

Example 3
September 11. The terrorists are mosty Saudi, Saudi Arabia is your best friend to date, and and you are a great supporter of the war on Iraq, based on another lie which is the presence of weapons of mass destruction

Yes Patton, allow me to doubt your credibility and your objectivity. What a pity that all this military experience is going to waste.

1- The "Christians" are not a sovereign nation
2- Hizbullah came to existence in 1982 after the Israeli invasion, and their scope of operations was their villages in South Lebanon, occupied by Israel for 20 years. This is when they became known as terrorists, whereas I am sure you think the Christians are not. They were heroes for fighting Syria. I would say a 20 year occupation of South Lebanon is NOT a violation of Lebanese sovreignty.

Heroes in one case, terrorists in the other.

Having seen the damage done to Israel by the media in the July war, I stand by my assertion too.

Israel lost the media war and they are making sure they won't this time around.

Gimme a break!!!! But then again, it's Israel. They do nothing wrong!!! All their decisions are well intentioned, including breaking a ceasefire.


As long as it is only Israel who's telling you what is going on, you will see only what Israel wants you to see. So mostly nothing.

A little comparison:

In 2006 in Lebanon, thousands of civilians fled their homes to more secure areas and yet massacres took place and pictures of burned children and decapitated bodies were shown all over the media.

In Gaza, they are surrounded from all sides, with no place to hide, and no secure area, but Israel ascertains that there is no humanitarian crisis, no massacres are taking place and no children are dying?

Yes sure. I don't know if there is anything worse than people who have eyes and don't want to see and ears and don't want to hear.

Actually I almost never replied to your first post because you are in the military, not to mention that this is not the subject of the thread, but then I remembered that you buy everything Israel says, and Israel called it a war, so.....I just pointed that out.

According to your logic, there is one Israeli Arab war, and all other "wars" in between are operations, as the stated goals have not been met. We will start by renaming the six day war, the 1st Lebanon war, and so on just to suit you.

And since the school of thought you talk about considers WWII to be WWI part 2, maybe we should rename WWI WO1. What do you think?

I may not claim to "school" you, but I do not think you are a reference when it comes to war.

I recall a conversation with you where you said to me that the "Christians" were justified to fight the Syrian occupation, but you consider Hizbullah to be terrorists for fighting the Israeli occupation in South Lebanon.

To me, your school of thought when it comes to war is to belittle your enemy's achievements and defend your favorite people's crimes.

Isn't it telling that you did not comment on the subject of this thread and instead took an insignifant aspect and made a whole deal out of it?

If Israel wins now, would that make it a war or an operation? 


And if they call it a war and say they lost it, you should accept that...or not...whatever....

It is also possible, and more likely, that they want to hide the true magnitude of the war. Israel is denying that there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Who's to say there is if no one gives you the news beside them? Another lesson from the July war. They have learned that media can show their atrocities and they just banned it.

Hey there Askari. I should be the one to welcome you back

How are things in Jordan? You're rooting for Israel, right?

I am not being biased. I am just saying the Israeli army called it a war. Operations are limited in scope, over very short time (usually in hours or a few days), and their objectives are normally modest - as in you cannot claim not to stop until your enemy is disarmed and defeated and call it an operation. This is annihilation war - if you fail, that does not make it "not" a war. Unfortunately for the Israelis, they can never afford a long term war, so time is not on their side. If they don't reach their objectives quickly, they have to stop. This does not mean they did not launch a war. 33 days in Israel's war history is longer than WWI and WWII combined to normal people

The 2006 war was not an extension of another war, it was the start of a new one because the very nature of the conflict changed. A chapter "almost" closed after Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon (occupation and resistance), there was another chapter linked to it (as in every war - MIA and POW and some borderline lands) which warranted small clashes. Had it not been for the exchange, the prisoner "operation" would not have taken place. This operation led to war. The first war where the objective was to annihilate Hizbullah. They lost that war.
 

Meanwhile:

Global Media Executives Protest Gaza Press Ban


"Israel's long-standing commitment to a free press"...Ha!

Israel keeps ban on foreign journalists in Gaza


You protectors of freedom, you....

I disagree. Hizbullah taking the prisoners in 2006 was a successful operation. Hizbullah failing to take prisoners many times before were failed operations. Israel's destruction of the tunnel in Gaza in November was a cross-border successful operation.

The 2nd July war (as it was called by the Israeli government and army) was a full fledge war. It is called a war by the people who launched it. Israeli military experts call it war. They lost that war.

Well I used to visit without logging on for like a minute except when something important was going on and there was something to read. Now I will make sure to log on at least once a week and check my PMs. One never knows when you might plan another ME visit  although I strongly don't recommend it now as our Israeli friends have just had another tantrum 

why of course...notice how they bypassed it even in this thread? 

AFP



Interesting....


Israel is afraid of Iran. It goes after Hizbullah and fails. Then it goes after lesser armed Hamas. What will happen if they don't achieve their goals now? Go with their airforce after a teenage street gang stealing cookies from old ladies?   

 Now some people may not have found the need the research the reason behind the war, and who started it, but it has been established by now that it was indeed Israel who broke the ceasefire and started it following a crossborder operation into Gaza in NOvember where a tunnel was blown up and at least six gunmen were killed.

The question is why?

Could it be this?

Israeli defense paper proposes to prevent Palestinian elections



So a peaceful ceasefire was not working for Israel and it went to war? The Israelis do that after all!!!!!

I thought only terrorists opened fire against Israel! and Israelis only retaliated...in self defense of course!!! What do you know?? 

Right Fred and realityman?