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1  Political Discussions / United States / Re: Taxes - Must Read on: July 18, 2008, 03:22:14 PM
Yes, they are "a pack of lies."

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/would_obama_tax_my_profits_if_i.html
2  Political Discussions / United States / Taxes - Must Read on: July 18, 2008, 08:44:43 AM
I found this in my email inbox today.  I thought I would post it here for a good laugh.


Taxes - Must Read

> > INTERESTING DATA JUST RECEIVED ON TAXES
> >
> > Spread the word.....
> >
> >  This is something you should be
> > aware of so you don't get blind-sided.
> >  This is really going to catch a lot
> > of families off guard. It should
> >  make you worry.
> >
> >  Proposed changes in taxes after 2008 General
> election:
> >
> >
> >  CAPITAL GAINS TAX
> >
> >  MCCAIN
> >  0% on home sales up to $500,000
> > per home (couples) McCain does not
> >  propose any change in existing
> > home sales income tax.
> >
> >  OBAMA
> >  28% on profit from ALL home sales
> >
> >  How does this affect you?
> > If you sell your home and make a profit, you
> >  will pay 28% of your gain on taxes.
> > If you are heading toward retirement
> >  and would like to down-size your
> > home or move into a retirement
> >  community, 28% of the money you
> > make from your home will go to taxes. This
> >  proposal will adversely affect the
> > elderly who are counting on the income
> >  from their homes as part of their retirement
> income.
> >
> >  DIVIDEND TAX
> >
> >  MCCAIN 15% (no change)
> >
> >  OBAMA 39.6%
> >
> >  How will this affect you?
> > If you have any money invested in stock
> >  market, IRA, mutual funds,
> > college funds, life insurance, retirement
> >  accounts, or anything that pays
> > or reinvests dividends, you will now
> >  be paying nearly 40% of the money
> > earned on taxes if Obama become president.
> > The experts predict that 'higher
> > tax rates on dividends and capital gains
> > would crash the stock market yet
> >  do absolutely nothing to cut the deficit.
> >
> >  INCOME TAX
> >
> >  MCCAIN (no changes)
> >
> >  Single making 30K - tax $4,500
> >  Single making 50K - tax $12,500
> >  Single making 75K - tax $18,750
> >  Married making 60K- tax $9,000
> >  Married making 75K - tax $18,750
> >  Married making 125K - tax $31,250
> >
> >  OBAMA
> >  (reversion to pre-Bush tax cuts)
> >  Single making 30K - tax $8,400
> >  Single making 50K - tax $14,000
> >  Single making 75K - tax $23,250
> >  Married making 60K - tax $16,800
> >  Married making 75K - tax $21,000
> >  Married making 125K - tax $38,750
> >
> >
> >  Under Obama your taxes will
> > more than double!
> >  How does this affect you? No explanation
> > needed. This is pretty
> >  straight forward.
> >
> >  INHERITANCE TAX
> >
> >  MCCAIN 0% (No change, Bush repealed this tax)
> >
> >  OBAMA Restore the inheritance tax
> >
> >  How does this affect you? Many families
> > have lost businesses,
> >  farms and ranches, and homes
> > that have
> > been in their families
> >  for generations because they could not
> > afford the inheritance tax.
> >  Those willing their assets to loved
> > ones will not only lose them to
> >  these taxes.
> >
> >  NEW TAXES BEING PROPOSED BY OBAMA
> >
> >  * New government taxes proposed on
> > homes that are more than
> >  2400 square feet
> >
> >  * New gasoline taxes (as if
> > gas weren't high enough already)
> >
> >  * New taxes on natural resources
> > consumption (heating
> >  gas, water, electricity)
> >
> >  * New taxes on retirement accounts
> > and last but not least....
> >
> >  * New taxes to pay for socialized medicine
> > so we can receive the same
> >  level of medical care as other
> > third-world countries!!!
3  Political Discussions / United States / Re: Prices are not going up on: July 03, 2008, 11:35:53 AM
Here is a good discussion of the supply & demand fundamentals from Angry Bear.


Surowiecki on Oil Prices


 
Andrew Sullivan finds the discussion of the oil market by James Surowiecki illuminating. I’m not so sure. Let me begin with this confusion:

Quote
Between 2000 and 2007, world demand for petroleum rose by nearly nine million barrels a day, but OPEC has been consistently unable, or unwilling, to significantly increase supply, and production by non-OPEC members has risen by just four million barrels a day.

But wait a second – doesn’t the quantity demanded equal the quantity supplied at the market clearing price? If Surowiecki is trying to say that the demand curve shifted outwards along a fairly inelastic supply curve – then maybe we have a pretty good explanation of the rise in oil prices. The Excel file from the Energy Information Administration has some useful information from 2003 to 2007 including total world demand and total world supply – which both grew by about 5 million barrels per day from 2003 to 2006. During this period, OPEC supply grew by almost 4 million barrels per day. Now from 2006 to 2007, world demand growth seems to have outstripped world supply growth with the difference being world demand and world supply being either reported draw downs of inventories or the “statistical discrepancy”. Given their data has most of this difference being the statistical discrepancy – it is hard to pin down precisely what their data is telling us.

Surowiecki argues against the usual suspects – market manipulation by greedy oil companies or speculative forces – and he’s likely correct. But then he argues:

Quote
But there’s also something else at work, which the oil guru Daniel Yergin calls a “shortage psychology.” The price of oil—more than that of many other commodities—isn’t based solely on current supply and demand. It’s also based on people’s expectations about future supply and demand, because those expectations determine whether it makes sense for oil producers to sell their oil now or leave it in the ground and sell it later. Currently, the market is assuming that oil will become scarcer, and that global demand will keep rising, especially in rapidly developing countries like China and India. As a result, producers are asking very high prices to pump their oil. Now, it could be that these assumptions are all wrong—that the supply of oil will not be constricted going forward, that concerns about the Middle East are exaggerated, and that higher prices will lead people to cut back on energy consumption, shrinking demand. In that case, oil would turn out to have been hugely overpriced. But that won’t be because of sinister speculators; it will be because oil producers and oil users collectively misread the future.

Why would anyone assume that the assumptions of rising world demand and shrinking supply be wrong? What if they are correct? Then couldn’t the current market price be a rational response to these rational expectations? Which might leave one to argue that allowing the market to work is the preferred policy to all the nonsense we are hearing from politicians such as John McCain.
4  Political Discussions / United States / Re: Prices are not going up on: July 02, 2008, 09:45:36 AM
Food for thought...



http://www.trendlines.ca/monthlyreport.htm#barrel
5  Social Discussions / Books and Literature / Re: What are you reading at the moment? on: July 02, 2008, 09:21:12 AM
The Black Swan, Nassim Taleb
6  Social Discussions / Business and Economics / Dow Predictions on: July 02, 2008, 06:02:01 AM
I saved this from an article I read back around 1999.  It's pretty funny looking at it now, today.

·  13,000 by 2000: Prudential Securities' director of technical research, Ralph Acampora
·  15,000 by 2005: Deutsche Morgan Grenfell economist Ed Yardeni
·  18,500 by 2006: Prudential's chief technician, Ralph Acampora
·  21,000 by 2008: Harry Dent, author of The Great Boom Ahead
·  21,200 by 2010: Sheldon Jacobs, No-Load Fund Investor
·  30,000 by 2010: Frank Jennings, Oppenheimer Funds.
·  49,200 by 2013: Investor's Business Daily projection
· 120,400 by 2025: Roger Ibbotson, economist
· 153,000 by 2023: Investor's Business Daily again
· 400,000 by 2047: Kiplinger's magazine
7  Political Discussions / United States / Re: John McCain, Fiscal Terrorist on: June 25, 2008, 06:03:07 AM
I think the people, acting though their government, have every right to enact programs that promise security in people's later years, and also universal health insurance.

I'm not arguing whether citizens have the right.  There is no question there.  If people wanted a complete socialism, they have the right to enact that, too.  I am arguing the wisdom of ever greater under funded entitlements, and the impact on our long term economy.  I think the risks are clear.  I am also arguing the wisdom of a retirement for every person over 65 with little regard to life expectancy or the means of people wealthy enough to care for themselves.  I am arguing the wisdom of doing this by relying on a shrinking working class. 

Maybe we could provide universal health care and balance the budget through reasonable SS & defense cuts, and modest tax increases?  I don't want to trample anyone's "rights," but I would also like to see a reasonable entitlement program when I get old enough to retire.  The business as usual model of run away medicare/medicade & deficit spending paid for by borrowing from SS ensure that I will not.
8  Political Discussions / United States / Re: John McCain, Fiscal Terrorist on: June 24, 2008, 03:22:39 PM
I was promised

Quite simply, the govt had no business "promising" a retirement & medical coverage for every person over 65 no matter what their means with no plan to address longevity, cost, or burden placed on an ever decreasing ratio of working participants.  If you really think the govt owes you something just because they made a misguided promise following one of the greatest periods of financial uncertainty in at least the last century, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

This doesn't mean that privatization is anything more than a thinly veiled poison pill with the real intent of forcing an end to a program for those who truly need it as well as those who don't.  That doesn't mean that social security, in some artificial budgetary isolation, isn't solvent for the foreseeable future.  That also doesn't mean that a budget consumed by medicare/medicade entitlements will be able to afford any entitlements at all including SS.  That also, finally, doesn't mean that, even if we could afford all these entitlements, that we should provide them to those people who can easily work and/or live comfortably off of their own savings by taxing the ever dwindling ratio of those who still work.

Today's entitlement system is a well intentioned, but very broken & underfunded system that will likely never be fixed until it is too late to save any part of it including SS.  Short sighted, and easily manipulated, voters will simply continue to vote in more entitlements, greater tax cuts, and scream, holler, and stamp their feet about what "promises" they feel the govt owes them until the economy collapses under the weight of ever increasing demands, debt & currency debasement.

The greatest threats to free, wealthy, nations is the hubris of foreign military interventionalism, and the creeping "promises" of bloated entitlements ... in that order.


US Dollar (X Axis) vs Brazilian Real (Y Axis)
9  Political Discussions / United States / Re: Al Franken on: June 18, 2008, 11:04:50 AM
This is the 2 year-old "Pie-in-the-sky-nothing-can-go-wrong-because-we-don't-have-a-plan-for-it" smoke and mirror campaign sent to the American public in a letter to Santa.

That sounds like an ironically accurate description of the Bush plan before we invaded.
10  Political Discussions / United States / Re: John McCain, Fiscal Terrorist on: June 17, 2008, 03:15:56 PM
Quote from: Cass
Aha, the truth comes out Quarken.  It's really about that income distribution. Standard GOP talking points about programs that provide economic benefits to any group.  You apparently ignored the reality that many continue to work as well as lose benefits in the process and continue to pay in past age 65.  In addition, one more factor of your true resentment is evident, I and others of my generation are only a group of greedy elderly who are taking your funds as a salaried worker to enjoy all the benefits of being excessively rich and playing daily at your expense. 
Why, exactly, should a retiree who can easily support themselves by their own means expect a monthly check from the govt funded by those still working?  You have avoided addressing this issue every time I have brought it up.  How do you justify this?

Quote from: Cass
While admitting the real problem isn't SSA, you also while accusing me of providing no reasoning other than my personal greed, you follow the typical GOP Party line about universal
health care. Maybe the shoe is really a better fit on your foot and you are classic for that generation who bought the GOP philosophy since Reagan's reign.  "Greed is good. I've got mine. Screw you."  Any opinion about raising the income cap? The current one is hardly realistic. Maybe end punishing those who continue to work and earn with some realistic indexing of the tax code rather than continuing to discourage employment and even savings in the IRAs the single available program still available to many working class couples as though the Roth may for some work out better, those distributions can still be an issue.
The problem is SS.  It is part of the larger entitlement problem.  There is no logical justification of SS for those who do not need it other than greed.  If I am wrong, please provide one reasonable explanation why you should receive a check funded by my income if you can otherwise support yourself?

I have long supported lifting the cap on FICA.  The tax is currently regressive, and I have posted on this board for literally years in opposition to regressive taxation such as FICA.  Do some research on my positions before making more incorrect assumptions.

Third, the best way to encourage employment for those 65 and older is to raise the retirement age.  There is no reason an otherwise healthy person over 65 can't work.  Research has even shown that working into retirement can improve overall wellness & longevity.  If you don't want to have to work, provide for yourself, instead of expecting the govt to. 

Quote from: Cass
If the future foretells your dire predictions, maybe you had better try and establish a better relationship with Mummy and hope she becomes more responsible?   Smiley
Huh?  My financial plans are sound, and they do not rely on any inheritance, SS or medicare.  Anyone in my generation would be a fool to plan otherwise.
11  Political Discussions / United States / Re: John McCain, Fiscal Terrorist on: June 17, 2008, 12:48:56 PM
You have never presented any reasoning why we should continue to have a retirement program with full benefits available 20 yrs before life expectancy.  The disincentives rob the workforce of very capable workers over 65 yrs old.  It serves absolutely no purpose other than a redistribution of income from working participants to retirees who face no means test to determine if they need these retirement benefits.  You also present no plan to compensate for the dwindling ratio of retirees to workers as life expectency continues to increase while the retirement age barely moves.  This is not sustainable over the long run.  The current business as usual approach will inevitably lead to no benefits being available to anyone.  Naturally, this is of little concern to you, as someone who will not be around to see the consequences of your own generation's anecdotally justified greed.

I have lumped all entitlements together because the reality is that the huge shortfalls in medicare/medicade will surely effect the govt's ability to provide any entitlements including SS.  Universal healthcare is no silver bullet.  It is not even the best solution, although it is certainly better than the current system. 

Finally, I don't care what McCain's plan is or what benefits he may specifically get.  I don't intend to vote for him, and he is a perfect example of the kind of retiree who doesn't need SS hand outs in order to pay his living costs.  There is no justification for forcing current workers to pay retirement benefits to the many retirees such as him who don't need them.  There is simply none.
12  Political Discussions / United States / Re: John McCain, Fiscal Terrorist on: June 16, 2008, 01:44:03 PM
Medicare and Medicaid are in financial crisis.

Not Social Security.

Here are some facts about Social Security: http://www.socsec.org/publications.asp?pubid=507
I agree completely.  I lump them together because I think both benefits are important.  Making prudent budgeting changes to both could allow a combination of these benefits to all who need them for the foreseeable future without creating an unreasonable burden on working participants.

As we have seen already, borrowing from SS to fund other govt services threatens even services like SS that may not, by themselves, be at risk.
13  Political Discussions / United States / Re: John McCain, Fiscal Terrorist on: June 13, 2008, 10:09:40 AM
Quote from: Cass
Quarken, while you are pleased to supply the information related to your personal circumstances, the large majority of those, what you always miss is those among the salaried
working class, where SSA is concerned. It's great you're fortunate enough to have resources that some might have that are inherited, but most families can't plan their retirement,
hoping to inherit as progeny of affluent parents.   Most earn what they have instead and while supporting a family, attempting to provide for the post secondary education of that family, hardly have the opportunity to save as you seem to believe they should be able to.
You asked about how my parents were going to afford retirement.  I told you.

As far as inheritance, you are wrong again.  My grandfathers wealth will divided 3 ways & pass through my mom.  Since she & I are not on perfect terms, and she is not the most financially responsible person, so I don't expect to see any of it.  I will see one third of one half of whatever my father has.  He does well, but whatever I may end up getting probably wouldn't pay off my mortgage, much less cover my retirement. 

I am, in actuality, one of the salaried workers you describe.  My retirement plan depends solely on what I save in my 401k & having a paid off mortgage when I retire.  I do not expect any SS/medicare or even a penny of inheritance.  I expect to live comfortably, and it hasn't taken anything more than minimal efforts, just good decision making & a responsible personal budget.  This is something anyone of even modest means should be able to do assuming they don't get caught up in debt, consumerism & poor life choices such as dropping out of school or having children outside of a stable marriage.  Sure there are hard luck cases, but that is why it SS/medicare should be a safety net rather than 20+ years on the dole.

Quote from: Cass
Numbers are just numbers and reality is a completely different issue. The one number you failed to include was the value of the dollar and the fluctuations among the international
currencies. Another factor that changes with the rise of fall of capitalist economy with period of boom and bust.  Anecdotal information? I doubt since it appears to not be an issue in
your personal circumstance, you didn't bother to check the rules of who receives what and how under the government regulations found at the government sites of SSA, SSI and Medicare.  If you take the time to familiarize yourself with that information, you can also search for relevant statistics.
That is only relevant if you plan on living in another country when you retire.  I won't be converting any of my dollars to euros unless I move to Europe.  Everything else is reflected in the inflation figure.

Please feel free to elaborate on whatever you think I am missing in SS/medicare benefits with actual empirical data.  I am anxious to see what you have to back up your anecdotal assertions.

Quote from: Cass
Regardless, how you would like to deny others benefits, a typical characteristic of the Me generation, most especially related to those who never have provided for a family, or who
continue to have family provide for them,  the truth is that of the three benefits mentioned, only SSI is one that is designed to assist those who are impoverished.  Neither SSA nor
Medicare were never intended as you insist on categorizing them as entitlements related to income other than the amounts related that in retirement when one complies the with
established regulations created by legislation.  Neither SSA nor Medicare were created nor designed as what you appear to believe are "welfare" programs. 
The "Me Generation" is a synonym for baby boomers.  I'm not a baby boomer, and when I referred earlier to the "me" plan, I was referring to a retirement plan where I am responsible for "me," not the govt.  Personal responsibility seems to be sadly lacking among retirees such as yourself who feel entitled to rely on the shrinking ration of workers such as myself to support you.  We know the benefits you enjoy will not be there when we get to be your age, and you are complicit in this failure by expecting the govt to take care of you even when you may be able to care for yourself. 

SS/medicare were intended to be a safety net.  There is no question about this.  Again, when SS was established, the retirement age was the same as life expectancy at the time.  The program was never intended to give people a 20+ year hand out to those who can easily work or rely on their own savings.  I am sure you have no problem continuing to bankrupt future generations you will leave behind; you will not have to pay the bill. 

Quote from: Cass
Do they teach history in Utah high schools? Is it a requirement for graduation?  Do they only teach students how to learn how to identify dates or teach about such programs and the evolution of them as a part of Federal law came about?  If you continue to express the opinion the entitlement to SSA and Medicare are income qualified and suggest they are only some sort of "welfare" entitlement, you'll continue to make a fool of yourself as neither is as you seem to believe they are.  Then some such as you claim to be appear to instead
depend on a different form of welfare provided by depending on the work of those who preceded you while you assume you'll be cared for from the cradle to the grave based on
the work and earnings of those who came before you.  Just your personal welfare program?   
I didn't go to high school in Utah, but why not add one more incorrect assumption to your list. 

Studying history is certainly worthwhile, but the problem is that people like yourself always expect that the future continue just like the past in linear fashion.  Look no further than all of the rhetoric about how Saddam & Iraq was just like Hitler & Germany to see how misleading this mentality can be. 

The fact is that the business as usual program of increasing life expectancy & increasing benefits for retirees is a train wreck in slow motion.  I have no problem raising taxes to cover reasonable benefits, but raising taxes will not be nearly enough.  Sooner or later will have to either scrap the programs all together or cut benefits.  The fool is the person who chooses to ignore the problem so that they can take their hand outs without any consideration of the bankruptcy they are creating for the generations left behind.  This is a blatantly selfish mentality thinly veiled behind some hard luck anecdotes of starving seniors.  Sooner or later more people will catch on, and the party will be over. 

Quote from: Cass
Let me know when you've grown up a bit and really have some ideas about reality of the rest of those who share this nation with you. LOL, maybe you'll be so fortunate as the to candidate of the real topic of this thread, find yourself a beer heiress like McCain did.  Moving back on topic, wonder if he will turn down his military retirement or his Senate retirement?  More entitlements some also look on as welfare though he has paid into one and earned the other with his service.

Seems like to me McCain, other than his current wealthy wife, if one considers the retirement he's entitled to as you do those who are salaried or when they even work under contracts are required to pay into SSA and Medicare, as others are required to, he's been sucking at the Federal teat, for a lifetime. LOL, little one, who do you figure is also paying for his medical care?   
Calling military retirement benefits welfare is plainly ridiculous.  I am no fan of McCain, but I honor his service, and he is entitled to the military benefits he has earned.

If he benefits from his wife's inheritance, then that's his business, and has no relevant bearing on this discussion.  FWIW, I favor taxing inheritance as regular income from the first cent.  That is, however, a completely different discussion worth its own thread.

Quote from: Cass
LOL, Quarken write or call your M.C. maybe they will be willing to change to current law to suit you.  Somehow I doubt even your two GOP Senators, Hatch or Bennet fail to understand that those programs you want to dispose of are what is known as the "third rail" of politics.  As to the claims you make about having to pay, but with no expectation
of receiving benefits.  There are many ways to continue both systems.  One is to raise the current cap on the top end of earners. It is unrealistic today. I would assume that when
the SSA trust fund was placed into the federal budget what was there went almost immediately and what is paid in today only covers the monthly benefits because the trust fund has
long since been gone.  Wonder how far the trillions wasted on the killing fields in Iraq might to do be used to continue to provide.  Or the interest being paid on that Chinese Credit
card on all of those cash advances?  Any ideas about that? 
It is clear that politicians of both parties lack the political courage to address the growing entitlement problem.  I have no hope of seeing a solution until it is far too late to salvage even a means tested system.  Certainly the war in Iraq has been a costly misadventure in terms of both lives & money.  I have a brother in law who will be serving a second tour there in about a month.  I can only hope for him & ever service person there to return safely.  I sincerely regret what better use the money & lives could have been put too than there.  Unfortunately, there is no easy solution at this late point.

As for China, we are probably quite lucky that we have a country so willing to finance our consumerism.  The truth is, our fates are now tied.  As our dollar falls, so does the value of the vast amount of our debt they hold.  I only hope that this doesn't lead to more protectionism as seems likely based on recent political rhetoric.  Protectionism hurts both sides of the lost trade relationship.  Ironically, our best tool for exporting democracy is trade.  In the long run we may follow our failure to produce a democracy in Iraq militarily with a failure to nurture positive political developments elsewhere with protectionism.  In any case, these are also subjects deserving of their own thread.
14  Political Discussions / United States / Re: John McCain, Fiscal Terrorist on: June 12, 2008, 03:45:50 PM
Quote
When social security was implemented, life expectancy was 65.  Today it is almost 80, yet full retirement has only moved to 67.  This is not going to be sustainable over the long term.
Not if irresponsible tax cuts continue.
I agree, however, raising taxes alone will not solve the problem.  In 1950 there were 6 beneficiaries per 100 workers paying in.  By 2050 there are projected to be 50 beneficiaries per 100 workers paying in.  We have only made this problem worse by increasing medicare benefits which are already rising faster than inflation even without the new drug program.

Something has to give.
15  Political Discussions / United States / Re: John McCain, Fiscal Terrorist on: June 12, 2008, 03:29:59 PM
Quote from: Cass
Quarken, what you ignore is the large numbers of those who receive SSA that remain in the work force. And there is a means test for those who do that limits their earnings or they must pay 50 cent on the dollar of what they earn in taxes.  As they age the limits increase the cap goes up, but only after age 70 can one who is receiving SSA earn an unlimited amount. And the age for full retirement has already been raised. And those who do remain in the work force though receiving SSA also continue to pay into it from their earnings. For many it's a Catch 22. Keep working, keep paying and keep the earnings below the cap though one can't quit work because there is not enough available through SSA to live on.  That free ride for 20 years for the typical SSA beneficiary is hardly as you paint it in reality.
I am aware that working reduces your benefits.  It should.  If you can work, I can see no reason to depend on the govt for entitlements.

Quote from: Cass
And those high wage wage earners are capped and at level that is somewhat unrealistic at which they currently are required to
pay in. So those who earn more may pay into the system, but get relief from what they pay when they reach the earnings cap.
And it those who then who have paid in more that take more out as it was designed. There there is also a tax earnings cap.
For a couple who are receiving SSA, half of that income, combined with all other taxable income is taxed on any income over
$32,000.  A tax that took effect in 1986 under the Reagan Tax Reform Act and hasn't been indexed since that time under any
of the so-called Bush tax cuts. So with required distributions from IRAs, half of even low SSA payments, military retirement and a small Federal retirement come April 15th each year since I do the taxes in our household, I send the IRS a check. So though it doesn't go into the SSA trust fund, but instead into the general fund, we continue to pay taxes on the SSA. While the
$32,000 cap in 1986 may have been a reasonable one, in today's dollars it really isn't a huge income for a couple who receive
SSA.  And I'll also remind you as you work and save, inflation and the value of the dollar is hardly a static factor nor are the
interest rates paid regardless of where and how you save.
I am very familiar with average rates of return on various asset classes.  Inflation has averaged 3.0% over the last 80 years.  Large cap stocks have averaged 10.4% over that same period.  Investing in a diversified stock index fund should net you 8.4% on average over inflation (of course, it would be wise to invest in lower risk assets as you near your retirement goal).  Investing 10% of your income over your lifetime should easily cover your retirement at a lifestyle equivalent to that of your working years.  Investing 15% of your income would allow you to retire quite comfortably.  Saving 15% should hardly be a strain on anyone of moderate or better income.

I actually know these numbers pretty well.  I would be happy to do the math for you if you would like to look at a few different scenarios.  It's not that hard.

Quote from: Cass
LOL, yes a full fledged member of the "Me Generation." If you get your way, you might want to also save a bit to assist your
parents in their dotage as they may have to depend on you for care and medical care or then maybe you would choose to just
throw them under the bus.  Or maybe you would choose to pay for some sort of long term care for them to provide?  BTW,
my sister is very fortunate she and my brother-in-law managed to work hard, get very lucky in a business in her location where for years there was little competition so they were able to working hard and investments to now have a number of millions to depend on. Medicare doesn't provide for long term care in nursing homes and very little toward home care. While Medicaid may help in some cases, but only for those who are impoverished.  At age 67 though eligible for both Medicare and
SSA, after many years of poor health, surgeries, by-passes and an artificial mitral valve, he now suffers from both dementia
from lack of blood flow to the brain and Alzheimer's too. Though it costs only slightly more than having him placed, she's opted for home care for him.  He has care givers 20 hours a day.  My sister cares for him from 5:00 pm. until 9:00 pm each
day, but the cost is $8,000 per month for the care givers only. Because they owned the business, they always had good medical care insurance and that continues to pay for his other care, but with huge deductibles and co-pays. Not a pretty picture at the very best.  I hate to think should that be the case for us. I would be required to spend down what we have to
almost nothing and then apply for Medicaid and have my spouse placed into one of the snake pits that actually accept Medicaid. Home care. Forget it.  VA care the same.  Something to think about as you save and as your parents age.
First, my parents are quite capable of supporting themselves with or without SS/medicare.  Both my grandfather on my mother's side, and my father are private business owners.  I am sure that either of them would be insulted by any offer on my part to support them.

Second, I am sure you understand why anecdotal evidence is a very poor basis to support an argument, so I won't remind you.  This is aside, of course, from the fact that, once again, means testing, by definition, would not prevent hardship cases such as these from getting benefits.  It would prevent, however, people who can work, or have savings enough to support themselves, from relying on a dwindling ratio of working age participants to fund their retirement.

Quote from: Cass
And on the issue of the line item veto.  Utah?  Who controls the state legislature? There hasn't been a Democrat elected to the Governor's office since 1985. One party government doesn't create much of a conflict where the line item veto is one that has much necessity. The last possibility of divided government in Utah goes back to before you were born. A bit different in CA and
also in the Federal Government.
I don't see how this is relevant.  The federal government was under the control of two seperate parties at the time we had a line item veto and a balanced budget.  I believe that having two branches of govt controlled by different parties leads to greater fiscal responsibility rather than less.  I would be surprised if data on historical spending did not back this up.

Quote from: Cass
My best suggestion to you is to learn a bit about what you advocate as if you are able to obtain it you may find it comes back to bite you.  As I've mentioned on another thread, I'm retired Congressional staff and have had the advantage of being more
aware of the laws as a caseworker dealing with a variety of issues.  I think you'll find if you go to SSA.gov or SSI.gov or IRS.gov I am correct.
Congratulations on having been a congressional staff member.  It makes more sense, now, that you prefer anecdotal evidence over emperical.  Anecdotal evidence is certainly the currency of political persuasion, unfortunately.  Perhaps if you had spent a greater deal of time working in the private sector you would be more sympathetic to those who would like to rely less on govt entitlements for future income.
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