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Author Topic: The Purpose of Science  (Read 1846 times)
Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2007, 05:26:13 PM »

Materialistic processes are, in addition to other conditions, processes that are not intentional.  Events that are driven by physical laws are driven by necessity to occur.  Random chance processes and constrained chance processes account for unintended events that did not have to happen but did.  Design is a contingent process that is intentional and therefore is not considered materialistic.
You are suggesting that this reply is disproof of materialism, because while my hands and computer follow known laws my mind does not?

Evidence? Yes. Disproof? Each must evaluate the burden of proof. 

If you view design as a valid mode of scientific explanation then you are not strictly a materialist in the sense I mean.
The Pyramids are thought to be designed, and the study of them including inferences about their creator(s) is considered science. As long as evidence is the foundation of understanding.
[/quote]

Yes and this group of scientists seem to be able to follow the evidence where it leads them.  Many scientific fields also do not burden their field of study with philosophical boundary conditions.  Evolutionary biologists do though.  How odd.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 05:29:28 PM by Reasoned Faith » Logged
Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2007, 05:37:05 PM »

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How is science hurt by allowing all modes of explanation?  It would be more complete and better able to explain evidence

Science is methodological naturalism. If you have another mode of explanation that works half as well, offer it up. Science does what it does. It may turn out to be a small part of potential human knowlege but it has worked amazingly well in manipulating our observable universe. Why require it to confirm to individual subjective concepts such as meaning, faith and revelation? That's beyond the scope of work.

Design (intentional constrained contingency) is a valid mode of explanation.  What justification is there to exclude it? In the case of biological diversity, design does a much better job of accounting for observations than methodological naturalism (materialism).  Why should we exclude a known process that accounts for observation and instead cling to proceesses that by observation, and information and probability theory does not?
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tadpol
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« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2007, 09:03:08 PM »

Materialistic processes are, in addition to other conditions, processes that are not intentional.  Events that are driven by physical laws are driven by necessity to occur.  Random chance processes and constrained chance processes account for unintended events that did not have to happen but did.  Design is a contingent process that is intentional and therefore is not considered materialistic.
You are suggesting that this reply is disproof of materialism, because while my hands and computer follow known laws my mind does not?
Evidence? Yes. Disproof? Each must evaluate the burden of proof. 
As I don't understand how either brains or thinking work I would hesitate to state the one isn't up to handling the other.

If you view design as a valid mode of scientific explanation then you are not strictly a materialist in the sense I mean.
The Pyramids are thought to be designed, and the study of them including inferences about their creator(s) is considered science. As long as evidence is the foundation of understanding.

Yes and this group of scientists seem to be able to follow the evidence where it leads them.  Many scientific fields also do not burden their field of study with philosophical boundary conditions.  Evolutionary biologists do though.  How odd.
Evolutionary biologists have to believe in evolution? Get out. This is the greatest injustice of the modern world. Say it ain't so. The Cultural Marxists have entirely too much power over the scientific community. Thinkers of the world diversify, you have nothing to lose but your chains.

Even if this was true and accredited grants asked if applicants reject Design and all it's empty promises, I hear some institutions with money support the idea. I have every confidence that smart folk with curiosity about how things work will figure out how things work.

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« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2007, 08:20:14 AM »

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Design (intentional constrained contingency) is a valid mode of explanation.  What justification is there to exclude it? In the case of biological diversity, design does a much better job of accounting for observations than methodological naturalism (materialism).  Why should we exclude a known process that accounts for observation and instead cling to processes that by observation, and information and probability theory does not?

Simply because design cannot be separated from the process. You have no discrete identified design events, no hypothetical processes and no identified or reasonably inferred designers. Observation of the fossil record identifies a progression. You have no answer for that. Machinations involving probability and information theory do not account for observed changes in genetic information that result in changes of phenotype and function. PCB and Nylon degrading bacteria as well of the relatively recent evolution of multiple species of Hawaiian drosophilia come to mind. In the case of probabilities the background information is inadequate. In the case of Information Theory your best hope is to somehow tie it to changes in protein function. I think Schneider's already done that. If he's right, you lose. At any higher levels of organization you lose again. The latest research indicate that small changes in regulatory genes may result in large phenotypical changes. There is no one to one correspondence and benefits or detriments are based on changing environmental conditions. How do you quantify that enough to use it in information theory?

I can't see where the design concept is defined enough to be of any use to anybody and I particularly don't see how design as we know it operates outside the material world.

By the way, design isn't excluded. Supernatural design is. There just is no reason to include it without evidence.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2007, 06:34:06 PM »

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Design (intentional constrained contingency) is a valid mode of explanation.  What justification is there to exclude it? In the case of biological diversity, design does a much better job of accounting for observations than methodological naturalism (materialism).  Why should we exclude a known process that accounts for observation and instead cling to processes that by observation, and information and probability theory does not?

Simply because design cannot be separated from the process. You have no discrete identified design events, no hypothetical processes and no identified or reasonably inferred designers.

I sense a special pleading. You identify three reasons to discount design.   

1. You say the mode of explanation cannot be separated from the process.  If this is the case, then it applies to materialistic modes as well.  But evolutionary theory separates the mode from the process. 

Darwinian Evolution separates modification and selection from the process when coevolution, coptation, patchwork, brigolage, scaffolding, roman arches, incremental indispensability and a host of other unobserved processes are cited to prop up the failure of observed evolutionary processes to account for new biological function.

Even if you are correct that the mode must provide a process, design does provide a process.  Genetic Engineers have already provided a process for how design accounts for genetic diversity.  Design provides a working process to explain genetic diversity.

2. You say there are no discrete identified design events and no hypothetical processes.

There are no discrete identified evolutionary events where new form or function occurred. 

However once again design events by Genetic Engineers have inserted new form and function into biological systems and these successes provide the basis to establish that a designer using similar processes can hypothetically have uses similar processes.

Neither design nor evolution can identify historical events and claim them because the causal history is lost.

3. There is no reasonably inferred designer.

Here I simply ask you to demonstrate where in the scientific process is there a requirement that a designer must be identified in order to conclude something was designed?  Archeologists produce things that are declared designed all the time without identifying a designer.


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Observation of the fossil record identifies a progression. You have no answer for that.

An inferred progression does not tell us a thing about how each of these fossils were formed and what relationships exist between them.  Even if the inference of a progression is correct, this progression is not inconsistent with design.  A designer is quite capable of staging a progression of function and form.  Automobiles and computers and nearly everything we design exhibits a progression.  It is not correct to say ID has no answer for the fossil record.  The fossil record is not inconsistent with design.

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Machinations involving probability and information theory do not account for observed changes in genetic information that result in changes of phenotype and function. PCB and Nylon degrading bacteria as well of the relatively recent evolution of multiple species of Hawaiian drosophilia come to mind.

None of these examples fall outside the bounds of probabilistic range of evolutionary change.  Both the PCB and nylon examples involved a singe mutation and generated a singe very poorly and clearly accidental mono-protein while at the same time destroying one or more functioning proteins for a net loss in function.  We can walk through this to confirm my analysis.  Information I have on the Hawaiian fruit fly don't provide any useful information on what new form or function if any (I suspect none) distinguishes one from the other.

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In the case of probabilities the background information is inadequate.


How so?  Probability analysis does not require complete background information.

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In the case of Information Theory your best hope is to somehow tie it to changes in protein function. I think Schneider's already done that. If he's right, you lose.


Don't see how this is so.  Please explain.

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At any higher levels of organization you lose again. The latest research indicate that small changes in regulatory genes may result in large phenotypical changes.

This is not new research.  I am quite prepared to discuss this issue.  These large phenotypical changes you refer to amount to huge and bizarre mix-ups in construction order.  We get eyes on antennae and feet where eyes should be.  The results demonstrate that regulatory gene must be precisely timed or you get a form that is completely inadequate to compete in the environment outside the lab.  Perhaps you can provide even one example where any regulatory change resulted in a selectable advantage.

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There is no one to one correspondence and benefits or detriments are based on changing environmental conditions. How do you quantify that enough to use it in information theory?

The narrative describes a progression of selectable advantage but experiment consistently demonstrates damage to existing function as a trade-off to relieve selection pressure.  Observation simply does not correspond with the narrative.  Even if benefits and detriments are as difficult to quantify as you claim (they are not) we have conducted enough experiments by now that we should be racking up at least a small list of evolutionary pathways several steps long.  The fact that we have not confirms that observed evolutionary processes cannot account the diversity we see.
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« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2007, 09:04:44 PM »

Archaeologists may not identify a designer, but one is always inferred, as are certain ideas about the designer relating to the how the designer was inferred.

For instance, if we find a ceramic pot among certain strata of earth, we can infer a couple of things about the individual that designed it.

First, we can identify an approximate age of the piece, and therefore an approximate point in time at which some agent of that the culture that created it existed there.

Second, we can identify this culture as one that had mastery over fire.

Other things can be inferred with less certainty (culture's use of language, possible specific uses of a pot like that, etc.), but for that culture to not have been there at that time, or to not have had mastery over fire are more or less impossible.

Realization of design does necessarily lead to an implication of some attribute of the designer. If nothing more, we know parameters of how they could and couldn't have built that design.
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« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2007, 09:43:13 AM »

I'm not sure why, after 3 years, RF does not see the problems with many of his lines of thought. I'm not sure if its intentional or not.  CSLewis would say: Liar or Lunatic?
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2007, 07:32:09 PM »

Archaeologists may not identify a designer, but one is always inferred, as are certain ideas about the designer relating to the how the designer was inferred.

I find your argument irrelevant to the point which is that it is not necessary to infer anything about the designer in order to conclude for example that the pottery shards or arrowheads  or what-have-you are designed.  Design is deduced (or possibly inferred) from the item itself and not from any inference about the character of the designer.
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« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2007, 08:53:19 PM »

Yes, RF, we know you are not allowed by your Pope to comment on the possible designer.

After all, you'd have to explain what character a designer would have to create malaria, the plague, AIDS, sickle cell anemia, and other "specifically complex" aspects of life that couldn't have evolved (as you suggest).

Of course, this doesn't bother you since all you want is for people to accept a designer in the first place, then you work on the Xianity (and thus apologize away all these evils by using the Sin argument). It is so obvious that it amazes me how ham-handedly you do it.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2007, 06:08:46 AM »

Yes, RF, we know you are not allowed by your Pope to comment on the possible designer.

After all, you'd have to explain what character a designer would have to create malaria, the plague, AIDS, sickle cell anemia, and other "specifically complex" aspects of life that couldn't have evolved (as you suggest).

That's just it barney, while the precursor organisms cannot be explained by materialistic processes, these parasites, pathogens and genetic defects can be accounted for by random unintended evolution from constructive or neutral forms. 

Quote
Of course, this doesn't bother you since all you want is for people to accept a designer in the first place, then you work on the Xianity (and thus apologize away all these evils by using the Sin argument). It is so obvious that it amazes me how ham-handedly you do it.

Logic that has its roots in truth generally is obvious.
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« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2007, 09:40:08 AM »

Archaeologists may not identify a designer, but one is always inferred, as are certain ideas about the designer relating to the how the designer was inferred.

I find your argument irrelevant to the point which is that it is not necessary to infer anything about the designer in order to conclude for example that the pottery shards or arrowheads  or what-have-you are designed.  Design is deduced (or possibly inferred) from the item itself and not from any inference about the character of the designer.

Character of the design is inferred from the design.

Do you claim that archaeologists have no interest in who made the things they find?

Usually, some attempt is made to figure out who made the pot.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2007, 03:44:56 PM »

Archaeologists may not identify a designer, but one is always inferred, as are certain ideas about the designer relating to the how the designer was inferred.

I find your argument irrelevant to the point which is that it is not necessary to infer anything about the designer in order to conclude for example that the pottery shards or arrowheads  or what-have-you are designed.  Design is deduced (or possibly inferred) from the item itself and not from any inference about the character of the designer.

Character of the design is inferred from the design.

Do you claim that archaeologists have no interest in who made the things they find?

Not at all. I simply claim that this interest is independent of their ability to recognize that something was designed.
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« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2007, 04:38:48 PM »

I think this quote gets to the point better than anything else I have run across.

Richard Lewontin, 1997. Billions and billions of demons, The New York Review, p. 31, 9 January 1997 (review of Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark).

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"Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen."

His error of course is that one does not have to make the jump from materialism all the way to a supernatural deity that can and does suspend logic and turn physical laws on end.  Really, it makes no sense to make such a leap and only reinforces the admitted prejudice these materialist admit they cling to.  Why must they presume that a supposed inventor of physical law would then go ahead and overturn those very laws?  They fully admit that they lack explanation for events but then illogically won't grant that a creator could not exploit physical laws they simply don't understand.  The best explanation for this unreasonable leap is because they must make it seem that the alternative to materialism is as patently absurd as they admit materialism is.   Perhaps they need a way to rationalize it when in fact  they have no justification to make such a claim.  It is the same prior commitment to materialism that likely makes them attempt to justify rejection of an alternative on such fallacious grounds.
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« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2007, 10:24:01 PM »

Of course you miss the point. How do you determine which event is "real" and which is by your supernatural designer?  This is why you Creationists have so many differeing opinions - some claim the Designer did it all in one week, others say he just tweaked something here or there.

And since you refuse to define, or reveal something supernatural, you continually appeal to the Gaps.

Plus, you forget the lesson of QT that if you can't determine where your Designer acted, then you can't use induction.  Since you have no reason to believe one thing is by MM or God (which you do often) you have no reason to accept that a bus exists on a street.  That is, like QT suggests you have reduced your ability to know at a base level as completely unknowable.

You have created a Cartoon universe that is only understood by the limits of your imagination and dogma.

For example:
Can your god create something ex nihilo (i.e., without using materials that already exist)?
Can your god create a water-breathing man?
Can your god create green snow?
Can your god create red grass?
Can your god create flowers that speak Mandarin Chinese?
Can your god create a human being with 42 arms?
Can your god create a woman who gives birth to elephants?
Can your god create a teacup that dances with a spoon?
Can your god create a second moon to orbit the earth?
Can your god remove all salinity from the world’s oceans?
Can your god create a biological organism which requires no nutrients or oxygen to live?

All these are possible by your Deusigner, according to your worldview.
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« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2007, 05:39:20 AM »

No, barney you miss the point.  Just like Richard Lewontin you are beginning to recognize the patent absurdity of your materialistic position and its utter failure to fulfill any of its many extravagant promises but you cling to it because you find the alternative distasteful.  Just as Lewontin did you in your last post created a construct of the alternate position that you find even more outrageous than your own so that you can satisfy  your intellect that your own incredible beliefs are as good as any other.

You also know though that you don't have to do this.  You know that design as an alternative mode of explanation need not include the construct of a rule breaking arbitrary and capricious creator your intellect requires you to construct in order to keep materialism afloat.

You know that a designer of life and even a designer of this universe can put physical laws in place and laws of rational behavior in place and then abide by them and still have produced all that we observe and all that we don't observe making use of processes that we have discovered, processes that we have yet to discover and processes we may never discover.

The reality that Lewontin admits and that you seem unwilling to admit is that except for the implications, design is by far the better explanation for this universe and life in it.
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