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Author Topic: The Purpose of Science  (Read 2896 times)
Reasoned Faith
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« on: November 25, 2007, 07:32:46 AM »

I have long puzzled about why it is that materialists don't regard any inquiry that contradicts the idea that random assembly (with or without constraints) can account for all we observe as science.  As I continue to listen and read the objections offered it is becoming clearer. 

To a materialist, the purpose of scientific inquiry is to determine how things came to be within the framework of material mechanisms only.  Any inquiry into causation outside materialism is by default not scientific. Therefore the only valid modes of explanation available to scientists in their mind is necessity and chance or a combination of both.  Nothing else is allowed because by their definition, it cannot be science.

There are two very serious problems with this. 

The first is that there are many items and events in our natural world that contain characteristics that have never been shown capable of being generated by random and constrained chance processes.  Information is one of the best and easily identified examples.  The materialist has never been able to demonstrate that high levels of information can be generated by materialistic processes but the materialist assumes this is the case and instead looks for evidence to support the assumption. The materialist calls this pursuit of evidence in support of an assumption science.  Meanwhile discoveries that disconfirm the assumption are not treated as evidence.

The second problem is what happens if material processes is not the answer to items and events.  In this case the materialist will never discover the answer. 

Is the materialist suggesting that discovery of truth is not the purpose of science?  That instead the purpose of science is to confirm the philosophy of materialism?


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Biker Dude
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« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2007, 10:47:53 AM »

To a materialist, the purpose of scientific inquiry is to determine how things came to be within the framework of material mechanisms only.  Any inquiry into causation outside materialism is by default not scientific. Therefore the only valid modes of explanation available to scientists in their mind is necessity and chance or a combination of both.  Nothing else is allowed because by their definition, it cannot be science.
You post what materialists think.  How do you know this?
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Major Zee Lee
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« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2007, 10:50:00 AM »

(...)

The second problem is what happens if material processes is not the answer to items and events.  In this case the materialist will never discover the answer. 

(...)

That's exactly why Philosophy exists -to deal with questions whose answer can't be found through Science. Anyway, the good thing with science is that you don't need to do everything here and now. What today is a mistery may be resolved tomorrow. That we don't know today means that we must keep researching the material world for an answer, not that it's time to give up a material explanation.

Science is not ultimate, Science is not absolute, Science is not complete and Science is not infalible. BUT, it expands continuously and haves a incorporated correction device that makes it as perfect as we humanly can achieve to make it. Science is humble but developing. And it's the best tool we got to understand material reality.

(Some people claim that there is a reality beyond material reality. But then that's not Science but Philosophy, or maybe Theology)
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2007, 11:27:51 AM »

To a materialist, the purpose of scientific inquiry is to determine how things came to be within the framework of material mechanisms only.  Any inquiry into causation outside materialism is by default not scientific. Therefore the only valid modes of explanation available to scientists in their mind is necessity and chance or a combination of both.  Nothing else is allowed because by their definition, it cannot be science.
You post what materialists think.  How do you know this?

I explained it here:


I have long puzzled about why it is that materialists don't regard any inquiry that contradicts the idea that random assembly (with or without constraints) can account for all we observe as science.  As I continue to listen and read the objections offered it is becoming clearer. 

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Biker Dude
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« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2007, 11:32:22 AM »

So you are using subjective personal experience.  Thank you for the clarification.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2007, 11:37:35 AM »

(...)

The second problem is what happens if material processes is not the answer to items and events.  In this case the materialist will never discover the answer. 

(...)

That's exactly why Philosophy exists -to deal with questions whose answer can't be found through Science.
 

I find that statement outrageous.   Philosophy as a study predated exclusion of any non-materialistic explanation in science.

Far better would be to allow all modes of explanation and to pursue the evidence wherever it leads you.  Why abandon scientific inquiry when the mode of explanation does not suite your philosophy?  This is what the materialist is insisting be done.

Quote
Science is not ultimate, Science is not absolute, Science is not complete and Science is not infalible. BUT, it expands continuously and haves a incorporated correction device that makes it as perfect as we humanly can achieve to make it. Science is humble but developing. And it's the best tool we got to understand material reality.

How is science hurt by allowing all modes of explanation?  It would be more complete and better able to explain evidence.

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(Some people claim that there is a reality beyond material reality. But then that's not Science but Philosophy, or maybe Theology)

Indeed but note that this is not what I am advocating for.
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Major Zee Lee
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« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2007, 11:46:06 AM »

Non material explanation is not Science. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2007, 01:09:26 PM »

Non material explanation is not Science. Roll Eyes
Right. The question is why not. I see science as embracing the rule of law, if something doesn't follow the laws we know it is evidence of other material laws we don't know yet. If (god forbid) it was proved that the FSM was really pushing things down, he'd be found to be following some rules in the way he made that happen, and science would investigate those rules.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2007, 03:38:59 PM »

Non material explanation is not Science. Roll Eyes
Right. The question is why not. I see science as embracing the rule of law, if something doesn't follow the laws we know it is evidence of other material laws we don't know yet.

Not correct. Intentional design follows known laws and yet design is not a materialistic process.  Deducing or inferring that something was designed is not a violation of any physical law or theorem.  This cannot be a valid reason to exclude design.  If something was designed then but we don't know how it was designed or by whom it was designed how is that any different than your appeal to unknown material laws?

tadpol, you'll have to come up with a better justification.
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tadpol
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« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2007, 12:29:56 AM »

Intentional design follows known laws and yet design is not a materialistic process.
I don't understand. All laws of science are materialistic. That's how I think about materialism; if we understand it it's materialistic.
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Factinista
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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2007, 04:38:19 PM »

Science only concerns itself with things that can be tested. If it cannot be tested or exists beyond the realm of repeatable phenomenon, it is not science. Non-materialism cannot be tested, you should know this.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2007, 05:46:51 PM »

Intentional design follows known laws and yet design is not a materialistic process.
I don't understand. All laws of science are materialistic. That's how I think about materialism; if we understand it it's materialistic.

Materialistic processes are, in addition to other conditions, processes that are not intentional.  Events that are driven by physical laws are driven by necessity to occur.  Random chance processes and constrained chance processes account for unintended events that did not have to happen but did.  Design is a contingent process that is intentional and therefore is not considered materialistic.

If you view design as a valid mode of scientific explanation then you are not strictly a materialist in the sense I mean.

Science only concerns itself with things that can be tested. If it cannot be tested or exists beyond the realm of repeatable phenomenon, it is not science. Non-materialism cannot be tested, you should know this.

Design is imminently testable. As an engineer, I design things and then test them and when they are properly designed and constructed they are quite testable and repeatable.
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2007, 09:26:54 PM »

It's always equivication galore with you.

You are trying to understand design as if a material being did it, since you have no other reference point.
Plus, you say design is contingent and therefore not materialistic! Do you know of any other process that design, except your imaginary sky pappy? Materialists desing things all the time, and they do so for a materialistic purpose. You have abstracted the process into some Platonic form - no wonder you are a Theist!
Plus, you say you design something and test it.  You aren't testing to see if it was designed!  You are testing to see if it performs according to your design, and you have to know your purpose - you have to know the designers purpose in order to test if it is performing according to specifications.

Jeez, RF, you are really unravelling.
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2007, 02:24:11 PM »

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How is science hurt by allowing all modes of explanation?  It would be more complete and better able to explain evidence

Science is methodological naturalism. If you have another mode of explanation that works half as well, offer it up. Science does what it does. It may turn out to be a small part of potential human knowlege but it has worked amazingly well in manipulating our observable universe. Why require it to confirm to individual subjective concepts such as meaning, faith and revelation? That's beyond the scope of work.

Quote
Not correct. Intentional design follows known laws and yet design is not a materialistic process.  Deducing or inferring that something was designed is not a violation of any physical law or theorem.  This cannot be a valid reason to exclude design.  If something was designed then but we don't know how it was designed or by whom it was designed how is that any different than your appeal to unknown material laws?

There is nothing immaterial or mystical in human based design, if that is what you're getting at. Design (as is the concept of intent) by living organisms is on a sliding scale from algae mats to skyscrapers. The analogy from human based design to design as the answer for the progression of life on this planet is an unwarranted leap of faith. You definitely need some empirical evidence other than the fact that it looks like it was designed to make that case. It is obvious that humans had little to do with creating life or the universe.

There is also a long history of the discovery of unknown material causes. I've seen no compelling evidence for the discovery of unknown immaterial or supernatural causes. Somewhere whoever designed this mess had to get his hands dirty. You'd think there would be smudgy thumbprints all over the place. 
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tadpol
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2007, 02:46:40 PM »

Materialistic processes are, in addition to other conditions, processes that are not intentional.  Events that are driven by physical laws are driven by necessity to occur.  Random chance processes and constrained chance processes account for unintended events that did not have to happen but did.  Design is a contingent process that is intentional and therefore is not considered materialistic.
You are suggesting that this reply is disproof of materialism, because while my hands and computer follow known laws my mind does not?

If you view design as a valid mode of scientific explanation then you are not strictly a materialist in the sense I mean.
The Pyramids are thought to be designed, and the study of them including inferences about their creator(s) is considered science. As long as evidence is the foundation of understanding.
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