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Author Topic: The Purpose of Science  (Read 2872 times)
daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2007, 12:20:44 AM »

"Magic Man Done It" is not an explanation. You can tell Rick I said so.  ;-)


Oh, wait, I'll let him speak for himself - in full context (really, RF, have you even read any of Lewontin? I get the impression you just cut and paste off of the DI site.  They aren't honest people , you know)


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In response, among those who had never lost their traditional fundamentalism, an active creationist reaction began, slowly accelerating to its present prominence. According to a series of polls taken over the last twenty-five years, about 50 percent of Americans believe that "God created man pretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years."[5] There have been repeated recent attempts in Minnesota, New Mexico, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Arkansas, and Kansas to make the study of challenges to evolutionary biology part of the mandated public school science curriculum. These have so far not succeeded, but Kansas seems on the verge of passing a statewide requirement that a new variant of the Creation myth, "intelligent design," be part of the discussion of evolution in public secondary schools. Intelligent design (ID) has itself been intelligently designed to circumvent legal challenges to the teaching of biblical creationism, challenges based on the constitutional requirement of a separation of church and state.

God, the Bible, and religion in general are not mentioned in the doctrine of ID. Rather, it is claimed that an objective examination of the facts of life makes it clear that organisms are too complex to have arisen by a process of the accumulation of naturally selected chance mutations and so must have been purposefully created by an unspecified intelligent designer. An alien from outer space? But the theory of ID is a transparent subterfuge. The problem is that if the living world is too complex to have arisen without an intelligent designer, then where did the intelligent designer come from? After all, she must have been as complex as the things she designed. If not, then we have evolution! Otherwise we must postulate an intelligent designer who designed the intelligent designer who..., back to the original one who must have been around forever. And who might that be? Like the ancient Hebrews the ID designers fear to pronounce Her name lest they be destroyed, but Her initials are clearly YWH.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18363
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 01:01:32 AM by daedalus 2.0 » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2007, 05:49:24 AM »

"Magic Man Done It" is not an explanation. You can tell Rick I said so.  ;-)


Oh, wait, I'll let him speak for himself - in full context (really, RF, have you even read any of Lewontin? I get the impression you just cut and paste off of the DI site.  They aren't honest people , you know)

It appears that it is you who is being dishonest.  You are the one being caught in deception, half-truths and out and out lies.  Here your quote is from 'The Evolution Creation Struggle'  while mine is from 'Billions and Billions of Demons'.  I did not remove my quote from the context as you accuse me of.  I did not leave off the part you quoted.  Your tactics are shameful.

You and Lewontin have the same approach though Lewontin is more honest when he admits that the materialist position is absurd given what we have learned about biological systems in the last 20 years.  In Darwin's days, with only a microscope, one could look at a single cell and only see a mash of gelatinous substances seemingly undulating rather randomly and imagine that what was going on inside was random, hectic and chaotic.  As a consequence it may have been reasonable at that time to presume that the processes that went into forming that cell were also random and incoherent. Today you cannot hold that same ignorant viewpoint. 

Here is an animated video produced by Harvard I think of some of the inner workings of a white blood cell. 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kxSLw1LMvgk

You have not addressed the substance of my previous post which I repeat here.

No, barney you miss the point.  Just like Richard Lewontin you are beginning to recognize the patent absurdity of your materialistic position and its utter failure to fulfill any of its many extravagant promises but you cling to it because you find the alternative distasteful.  Just as Lewontin did you in your last post created a construct of the alternate position that you find even more outrageous than your own so that you can satisfy  your intellect that your own incredible beliefs are as good as any other.

You also know though that you don't have to do this.  You know that design as an alternative mode of explanation need not include the construct of a rule breaking arbitrary and capricious creator your intellect requires you to construct in order to keep materialism afloat.

You know that a designer of life and even a designer of this universe can put physical laws in place and laws of rational behavior in place and then abide by them and still have produced all that we observe and all that we don't observe making use of processes that we have discovered, processes that we have yet to discover and processes we may never discover.

The reality that Lewontin admits and that you seem unwilling to admit is that except for the implications, design is by far the better explanation for this universe and life in it.



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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2007, 09:12:37 AM »

Ah, yes, the video that Dembski stole, and altered for his ID purposes. Harvard had to threaten him with legal action to stop him from using it for his lies.

Talk about deceptions and half-truths!
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« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2007, 09:41:54 AM »

Ah, yes, the video that Dembski stole, and altered for his ID purposes. Harvard had to threaten him with legal action to stop him from using it for his lies.

Talk about deceptions and half-truths!

Another Red Herring diversion. barney you are becoming legondary for these.  I found the video on u-tube with full credits to the producer and no indication that it has been altered by Dembski.  I see no reference to Dembski at all.  Meanwhile your response is typical of the materialist proponent when cornered and no substantive response.

So, once again we have the sheer absurdity of the materialist position exemplified in this video where you claim this cell is the product of incoherent random chemic processes eventually generating a first life form and then along with selection, all others.  Here we have Lewontin admitting that the materialist position is spectacularly weak and in fact a failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life.  Meanwhile we have the hard sciences like the medical field having tremendous successes by reverse engineering biological processes and genetic engineers inserting new form and function where it did not previously exist.  Both of these are design processes.

Still we have no valid explanation as to why we should not accept design as a valid mode of scientific explanation except as Lewontin has admitted:

Quote
We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.

Because there is no valid argument, you and Lewontin and all your fellow materialists improperly turn the design inference into something as bombastic as your own premise just to satisfy your own intellect and prevent the materialistic house of cards from crumbling.

So let's drop this charade and provide a sound reason why design should not be a valid mode of scientific explanation.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2007, 10:59:18 AM »

http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2007/11/27/deguassed-moral-compass-alert-dembski-using-internet-video/


Oh, stop the theatrics, RF.  Propose a scientific hypothesis and we'll call it science, but "Magic Men Done It" aka Creationism isn't science.

You know the arguments against it, you just choose to dismiss them because you are a Xian apologist.
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« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2007, 11:36:18 AM »

You have admitted that you are only interested in the absurd philosophy of materialism despite evidence to the contrary.  You have admitted as Lewontin says: "We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism."  You won't accept any alternatives as science because, to you, science is not pursuit of truth, to you, science is an attempt to justify materialism.  Why do you now lie?
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2007, 02:46:32 PM »

Where I have admitted this? Please provide the quote.
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« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2007, 05:28:19 AM »

Where I have admitted this? Please provide the quote.

Your prior commitement to materialism is clear in your posts.  I am surprised you deny your principles and the faith you clearly hold so strongly.
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scripto
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« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2007, 06:44:01 AM »

Yes, RF, we know you are not allowed by your Pope to comment on the possible designer.

After all, you'd have to explain what character a designer would have to create malaria, the plague, AIDS, sickle cell anemia, and other "specifically complex" aspects of life that couldn't have evolved (as you suggest).

That's just it barney, while the precursor organisms cannot be explained by materialistic processes, these parasites, pathogens and genetic defects can be accounted for by random unintended evolution from constructive or neutral forms. 

I think Barney makes a good point. You really need to take the good with the bad. There are several parasites with more complicated life cycles than their free ranging counterparts. Parasitism does not always involve the devolution of already existing forms. Take the blood fluke (please), a parasitic cousin to the planarium. It is a multiple host parasite with two different phenotypes in its life cycle. One to infect the intermediate snail host and one freeswimming variety to infect the final human host. There are dozens of equally or more complex examples.

Since ID Theory precludes the increase in genetic information through mutation and selection leading to the evolution of these more complex forms we can only conclude Design for these organisms. Having nailed this as a designed organism we can begin to infer something about the nature of the designer, using as our template the analogy of human design and behavior.

We can infer that the Designer is either seriously, sadistically deranged or that parasitism is his ultimate goal.

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« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2007, 10:54:20 AM »

Of course, religionists will have no problem with this: was it Satan? is it our inability to grasp the majesty of gods plan? Do they (the organisms) provide some good that we don't know to offset the horror? etc.

What is also interesting is that if ID is true, we are robots - very limited in what we do and think. In fact, RF, goes on further to suggest that his Deusigner imbedded morality, logic and free will into our program (which can only go through minor changes according to him).  Talk about Determinism!  We are machines designed for the purpose of the Deusigner - we are toasters for his bread, wrenches for his bolts.

It's odd how much theology has changed to resemble more atheistic conceptions of the universe.

I see now why most IDers are beginning to seperate from old concepts of theology into a new brand - another change for Xianity is in the works.

This supports the thesis that religon changes to the new understandings of our universe so that the religionists can always claim they were always right in the first place (note the apologetics when the Steady State universe was in favor: they used it as PROOF of god).



Plus, RF will have to explain why, after lambasting science for not opening its doors to ID, why ID stops and rejects any mention of the character of the Designer?  Intellectual cold feet all of a sudden?

And then in this intellectual vacuum, he will have to admit that ID doesn't even begin to explain life from non-life, since the points he claim are the design points (the gaps) are, well, gaps.   In fact, ID doesn't explain HOW anything is done, it just asserts a designer filled in the gaps.

It is simply an absurd and bankrupt hypothesis. It is Creationism, plain and simple.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 11:01:46 AM by daedalus 2.0 » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2007, 04:44:34 PM »

Yes, RF, we know you are not allowed by your Pope to comment on the possible designer.

After all, you'd have to explain what character a designer would have to create malaria, the plague, AIDS, sickle cell anemia, and other "specifically complex" aspects of life that couldn't have evolved (as you suggest).

That's just it barney, while the precursor organisms cannot be explained by materialistic processes, these parasites, pathogens and genetic defects can be accounted for by random unintended evolution from constructive or neutral forms. 

I think Barney makes a good point. You really need to take the good with the bad. There are several parasites with more complicated life cycles than their free ranging counterparts. Parasitism does not always involve the devolution of already existing forms. Take the blood fluke (please), a parasitic cousin to the planarium. It is a multiple host parasite with two different phenotypes in its life cycle. One to infect the intermediate snail host and one freeswimming variety to infect the final human host. There are dozens of equally or more complex examples.

Since ID Theory precludes the increase in genetic information through mutation and selection leading to the evolution of these more complex forms we can only conclude Design for these organisms.

Precisely what new form and function do these supposedly more complex worms have over the precursor forms?  Without this information you invent yet another "just so" narrative as an article of faith.  Just as Lewontin proclaims, your prior commitment to materialism compels you to create yet another construct in this case one that attempts to falsify the competing explanation.
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tadpol
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« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2007, 07:23:03 PM »

I don't understand. I think all theisms offer explanations why god looks like a jerk but isn't, and if ID doesn't have theism there is no problem with the designer being a jerk. So saying the designer looks like a jerk doesn't advance the anti-ID argument. Why are parasites an issue?
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2007, 09:33:22 PM »

I don't understand. I think all theisms offer explanations why god looks like a jerk but isn't, and if ID doesn't have theism there is no problem with the designer being a jerk. So saying the designer looks like a jerk doesn't advance the anti-ID argument. Why are parasites an issue?
Sure, but you admit it speaks volumes about the prepposed designer.
PLus, if the designer isn't god, then it throws evolution back into the forefront, since the designer would presumably have to be an evolved creature - since we know of no other way that can account for the diversity and complexity of life.
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« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2007, 10:02:10 PM »

I don't understand. I think all theisms offer explanations why god looks like a jerk but isn't, and if ID doesn't have theism there is no problem with the designer being a jerk. So saying the designer looks like a jerk doesn't advance the anti-ID argument. Why are parasites an issue?
Sure, but you admit it speaks volumes about the prepposed designer.
PLus, if the designer isn't god, then it throws evolution back into the forefront, since the designer would presumably have to be an evolved creature - since we know of no other way that can account for the diversity and complexity of life.
Perhaps I didn't state my objection clearly. A designer's character has nothing to do with its existence. "God is a jerk" might be an interesting thread, but this is not it.

Granting a non-divine designer  creates a problem of the designer's creation, but I can't see how it offers any insight into that problem. The argument of ID is that we don't know of any scientific way to account for the complexity, diversity, or even presence of life. So accepting a designer only account for it by evolution confuses me.
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scripto
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« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2007, 06:02:06 AM »

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Precisely what new form and function do these supposedly more complex worms have over the precursor forms?  Without this information you invent yet another "just so" narrative as an article of faith.  Just as Lewontin proclaims, your prior commitment to materialism compels you to create yet another construct in this case one that attempts to falsify the competing explanation

Jeez, I'm just trying to see things from the ID perspective.

A free ranging planaria would have no need to infect an intermediate host or any host for that matter. Once the eggs of this particular blood fluke are passed in the feces they hatch into a miracidium which penetrates and infects a snail. Each miracidium is capable of producing up to 200,000 intermediate forms known as a cercaria, a free ranging organism which is capable of penetrating human skin and blood vessels which then mature into worms in the intestines and lay eggs, completing the cycle. Under our current understanding of evolutionary processes how could a simple planaria envolve two different intermediate phenotypes perfectly suited to infect two different hosts? We must conclude design.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 06:31:56 AM by scripto » Logged

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