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Author Topic: The Golden Compass  (Read 2242 times)
Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #105 on: January 04, 2008, 03:46:03 PM »

What color is the sky in your world IamMe?    I take him at his word and I note that many scientists on his side and on mine do as well. If you do not, and are prepared to make a case, then do so.

Since when do you take scientists at their word?

If you do not and have something to indicate his words are in error, I would be anxious to hear your argument.
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IamMe
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« Reply #106 on: January 06, 2008, 12:41:25 PM »

What color is the sky in your world IamMe?    I take him at his word and I note that many scientists on his side and on mine do as well. If you do not, and are prepared to make a case, then do so.

Since when do you take scientists at their word?

If you do not and have something to indicate his words are in error, I would be anxious to hear your argument.

I have made the case in more detail in the past.

Material explanations are preferred, not because of a priori commitment to materialism but because they are the only ones that can be verified according to the scientific method. If Lewontin has a problem with the scientific method then he is not a scientist.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #107 on: January 06, 2008, 05:54:17 PM »

What color is the sky in your world IamMe?    I take him at his word and I note that many scientists on his side and on mine do as well. If you do not, and are prepared to make a case, then do so.

Since when do you take scientists at their word?

If you do not and have something to indicate his words are in error, I would be anxious to hear your argument.

I have made the case in more detail in the past.

Material explanations are preferred, not because of a priori commitment to materialism but because they are the only ones that can be verified according to the scientific method.

Not true.  The scientific method is quite capable of verifying design.  Reliability engineers use the scientific method to uncover design flaws.  Forensic scientists verify design as a cause. There are hundreds of broad categories where science verifies design.  Design is not a materialistic mechanism.

Quote
If Lewontin has a problem with the scientific method then he is not a scientist.

Lewontin never indicates any problem he may have with the scientific method.  He is simply calling a spade a spade when he explains why he thinks scientists should maintain a prior commitment to materialism.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #108 on: January 06, 2008, 06:48:05 PM »

They use the scientific method to determine known aspects of human behavior.  At least TRY to be honest.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #109 on: January 13, 2008, 05:27:02 AM »

After contemplating your response for some time , it seems to me you have made a category error.  It is true that scientists use the Scientific Method to determine the cause of certain phenomenon and in many cases that cause is intentional acts we call design that most often happen to be human initiated but it is not correct to insist that only humans can conceive, plan and execute things.
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IamMe
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« Reply #110 on: January 13, 2008, 02:15:10 PM »

After contemplating your response for some time , it seems to me you have made a category error.  It is true that scientists use the Scientific Method to determine the cause of certain phenomenon and in many cases that cause is intentional acts we call design that most often happen to be human initiated but it is not correct to insist that only humans can conceive, plan and execute things.

Yeah, other animals do to. But I think that when known designers are incapable of accomplishing the supposed design event then you cannot infer design.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #111 on: January 13, 2008, 05:12:58 PM »

After contemplating your response for some time , it seems to me you have made a category error.  It is true that scientists use the Scientific Method to determine the cause of certain phenomenon and in many cases that cause is intentional acts we call design that most often happen to be human initiated but it is not correct to insist that only humans can conceive, plan and execute things.

Yeah, other animals do to. But I think that when known designers are incapable of accomplishing the supposed design event then you cannot infer design.

If known material processes are incapable of accomplishing a particular event are we prevented from inferring materialism?
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2.DOH
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« Reply #112 on: January 15, 2008, 06:14:33 AM »

I will never understand why the religious wing can't use these books as teaching opportunities rather than fuel for their roaring bonfire - I suppose they need something on which to throw the witches and heretics! Cheesy

Also, do they really have so little confidence in their children's faith that they think they will be converted to atheism by a film starring Nicole Kidman?


The films cast has little to do with their position. Were you trying for humor?


If gays believed a film showed homosexuality in a negative light("Basic Instinct" for example), were they protesting because it had Sharon Stone?



edit- for piss poor grammar
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 06:29:48 AM by 2.DOH » Logged
Perrin
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« Reply #113 on: January 15, 2008, 07:14:09 AM »

I will never understand why the religious wing can't use these books as teaching opportunities rather than fuel for their roaring bonfire - I suppose they need something on which to throw the witches and heretics! Cheesy

Also, do they really have so little confidence in their children's faith that they think they will be converted to atheism by a film starring Nicole Kidman?


The films cast has little to do with their position. Were you trying for humor?


If gays believed a film showed homosexuality in a negative light("Basic Instinct" for example), were they protesting because it had Sharon Stone?



edit- for piss poor grammar

Have you even seen The Golden Compass?  To say it (the movie not the book) is a call to atheism is to say that Spaceballs is a call to join NASA.  You are correct though, the cast has nothing to do with it, but the editing of the movie to remove all religious references does. 
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2.DOH
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« Reply #114 on: January 15, 2008, 08:06:18 AM »

Have you even seen The Golden Compass?
No.

I am a cheap bastard & will wait for it to show up on TBS. 

Quote
To say it (the movie not the book) is a call to atheism is to say that Spaceballs is a call to join NASA.

I'm undecided. Knowing the authors slant, it could very well be that his intention, however subtle, is just that.

The greater issue, in my opinion, is whether or not kids will actually pick up on it.

Most of these battles appear to be between 'adults' on both sides.
Couldn't it simply be that kids will see this as a cool story with swords, good guys, bad guys, magic, etc?

(Similar to Chronicles of Narnia)

The target audience seems a bit young for the philosophical.
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IamMe
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« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2008, 02:54:49 PM »

After contemplating your response for some time , it seems to me you have made a category error.  It is true that scientists use the Scientific Method to determine the cause of certain phenomenon and in many cases that cause is intentional acts we call design that most often happen to be human initiated but it is not correct to insist that only humans can conceive, plan and execute things.

Yeah, other animals do to. But I think that when known designers are incapable of accomplishing the supposed design event then you cannot infer design.

If known material processes are incapable of accomplishing a particular event are we prevented from inferring materialism?

YES!
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Callum
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« Reply #116 on: January 16, 2008, 11:40:34 AM »

quote author=Reasoned Faith link=topic=1053.msg35102#msg35102 date=1200273178]
If known material processes are incapable of accomplishing a particular event are we prevented from inferring materialism?
[YES!
[/quote]

O yawn, another trap sprung.  We'll now get miracles, the origin of life the universe and everything etc.   

What we can infer is that:
1.  The 'particular event' as reported is reported incorrectedly...
2.  If correctly observed and reported, then 'known material processes' are not sufficient and further theory/explanation is needed...
3.  If sufficient explanation is never (or cannot be) forthcoming, then materialism should be judged against other explanations...
4.  If there is a better (or even 'equal') explanation, then and only then are we prevented from inferring materialism.

I'm sure the scholastic casuistry of a dedicated theist could pick holes in that too, but just abide by the spirit... Cheesy


On a broader note, intentional actions are all accountable for by physical processes.  The category error is to assign a separate category to 'design'.  The supreme logical error is to then extend this category to everything.
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IamMe
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« Reply #117 on: January 16, 2008, 03:10:26 PM »

quote author=Reasoned Faith link=topic=1053.msg35102#msg35102 date=1200273178]
If known material processes are incapable of accomplishing a particular event are we prevented from inferring materialism?
YES!

O yawn, another trap sprung.  We'll now get miracles, the origin of life the universe and everything etc.   
[/quote]

Did I fall into a trap? I would have thought that by leading with a question RF has said that he basically agrees with my statement (when known designers are incapable of accomplishing the supposed design event then you cannot infer design).
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« Reply #118 on: January 17, 2008, 01:50:40 AM »

quote author=Reasoned Faith link=topic=1053.msg35102#msg35102 date=1200273178]
If known material processes are incapable of accomplishing a particular event are we prevented from inferring materialism?
YES!

O yawn, another trap sprung.  We'll now get miracles, the origin of life the universe and everything etc.   

Did I fall into a trap? I would have thought that by leading with a question RF has said that he basically agrees with my statement (when known designers are incapable of accomplishing the supposed design event then you cannot infer design).
[/quote]

I am sure RF didn't mean to mislead with his restatement of your statement, but it was intended I am equally sure as a rhetorical device to say that if you use this to deny 'design' it can be used to deny materialism.

As usual, though, the clever rhetoric hides an error in equating 'a known designer'/'supposed design'  with 'known material processes'/'particualr event'.   This is because the relationship between 'designer' and 'design' is teleological, whereas process/event is simply causal.  'Design' adds intent/purpose i.e. mentality, which is absent in the fundamental first order workings of material processes.  Mentality (and discussion of it and discussion of discussions etc) are higher order events:  the whole idea of teleology exists within our thinking processes, but that does not mean it exists as a force in nature.  We can use teleological explanations as a 'shorthand' that often suffices to account for things - this doesn't mean that the account is correct, merely sufficient for our purposes at the time.  For example, when a moth dives suddenly when a high-pitched sound is heard nearby - we may say the moth wants to avoid a predator (a bat).  But the reaction is a reflex with no mentality involved at all: however, the explanation is satifying.     As I said, the error of the 'designers' is to carry a heuristic into detailed explanation.
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