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Author Topic: Chavez loses  (Read 1606 times)
gommi
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« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2007, 07:32:55 PM »

Why is that?  What would have differed in his proposals if he had support?  The re-election part?
If he was confident in the popularity of Socialism in Venezuela, there would be no need to undermine democracy the way he is.

I suspect he fears another leader will gain popularity who doesn't share the same Socialist vision he does, and as a result he feels the need to run for election until his death. It seems as if Chavez is attempting to manipulate the system to ensure his continued leadership, while maintaining the appearance of legitimacy, as a petty dictator would.

Why Chavez can't merely inspire other Socialists to follow his example and run for election is suggestive of his ambitions.
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OswaldTheOsprey
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« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2007, 08:55:26 PM »

Why is that?  What would have differed in his proposals if he had support?  The re-election part?
If he was confident in the popularity of Socialism in Venezuela, there would be no need to undermine democracy the way he is.

I suspect he fears another leader will gain popularity who doesn't share the same Socialist vision he does, and as a result he feels the need to run for election until his death. It seems as if Chavez is attempting to manipulate the system to ensure his continued leadership, while maintaining the appearance of legitimacy, as a petty dictator would.

Why Chavez can't merely inspire other Socialists to follow his example and run for election is suggestive of his ambitions.

Do you think he is ambitious for his own self or for his political cause?

OswaldTheOsprey
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gommi
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« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2007, 06:26:07 AM »

Do you think he is ambitious for his own self or for his political cause?
He cares more than anything about his political cause, believing however that it is dependent on his solitary actions.

The problem is that any strong, legitimate, and democratic political movement cannot be based on the leadership of a single person. Early American presidents consciensously  adhered to the electoral laws of their republic, readily leaving their positions of power if they performed poorly in the political process (and never running again), though their ideals continued through other members of their party.

Because people are already skeptical of Chavez's legitimacy, viewing him as an aspiring dictator, it would benefit him to adopt a system of greater political participation. He should accept the end of his term in the time designated, and influence others to continue his reforms.
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Viv.
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« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2007, 08:01:38 AM »

Do you think he is ambitious for his own self or for his political cause?
He cares more than anything about his political cause, believing however that it is dependent on his solitary actions.

The problem is that any strong, legitimate, and democratic political movement cannot be based on the leadership of a single person. Early American presidents consciensously  adhered to the electoral laws of their republic, readily leaving their positions of power if they performed poorly in the political process (and never running again), though their ideals continued through other members of their party.

Because people are already skeptical of Chavez's legitimacy, viewing him as an aspiring dictator, it would benefit him to adopt a system of greater political participation. He should accept the end of his term in the time designated, and influence others to continue his reforms.

People seem pretty divided about his real motivation.  He gained sympathy after fighting his way through the early problems and because of the economic disadvantage and historic abuses of South American countries by oppressive nations he is an underdog, which also affords sympathy.   

I agree that based on his recent actions a play for dictatorship is still possible, the jury is still out.  It could be suggested that the substantial social improvement reforms offered might have been a carrot proposed to allow him to push through the re-election reform. This failed, but he has in any case gained credibility by his actions.  Astute, from any angle.  Time will tell if this was random or calculated and whether he IS astute or, as one poster suggested, an idiot.

I would not, however, expect him to tailor his actions to suit the views of the international community, for example as suggested in your last sentence, if he genuinely believes there is no one capable of pushing through the reforms he views as essential to his country's welfare.  He may feel the time to do this is after an effective political system is established.  I do not say this is correct though...

Is your own affiliation to capitalism?  For example, what are your views on Castro?  I am trying to establish if your views are biased by influence deriving from your own culture.
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OswaldTheOsprey
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« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2007, 09:06:17 AM »

Do you think he is ambitious for his own self or for his political cause?
He cares more than anything about his political cause, believing however that it is dependent on his solitary actions.

The problem is that any strong, legitimate, and democratic political movement cannot be based on the leadership of a single person. Early American presidents consciensously  adhered to the electoral laws of their republic, readily leaving their positions of power if they performed poorly in the political process (and never running again), though their ideals continued through other members of their party.

Because people are already skeptical of Chavez's legitimacy, viewing him as an aspiring dictator, it would benefit him to adopt a system of greater political participation. He should accept the end of his term in the time designated, and influence others to continue his reforms.

You are quite right in your prescription of what Chavez should do. Having said that, it is doubtful he is humble enough to follow it. "An indespinsable man" in his own eyes.

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Jabato
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« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2007, 12:48:00 AM »

There is a very large community of spanish inmigrants in Venezuela. Most of them come from the Canary Islands, that they left in the sixties heading to Venezuela. I've got two cousins living over there that I met for the first time a couple of years ago. One of them is married to a dentist. Her husband has been investing money for years in his business for years.

Now Chavez says that as Health is a very important aspect of life and many venezolanos are poor, prices of private doctors has to be fixed. Now dentists or doctors are not free to charge the amount of money they decide for their services. And this is communism, folks.

There are a lot of poor people in Venezuela. Don't you think that these people would live a better life if Chavez would use the money he is getting from the venezuelan oil in the poors instead giving it to Cuba or Bolivia in order to achieve his nasty socialists plans?

Saludos
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OswaldTheOsprey
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« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2007, 05:19:52 AM »

There is a very large community of spanish inmigrants in Venezuela. Most of them come from the Canary Islands, that they left in the sixties heading to Venezuela. I've got two cousins living over there that I met for the first time a couple of years ago. One of them is married to a dentist. Her husband has been investing money for years in his business for years.

Now Chavez says that as Health is a very important aspect of life and many venezolanos are poor, prices of private doctors has to be fixed. Now dentists or doctors are not free to charge the amount of money they decide for their services. And this is communism, folks.

There are a lot of poor people in Venezuela. Don't you think that these people would live a better life if Chavez would use the money he is getting from the venezuelan oil in the poors instead giving it to Cuba or Bolivia in order to achieve his nasty socialists plans?

Saludos

Chavez is an egotistical and powermad blowhard. He associates his goodwill with that of his nation.

OswaldTheOsprey
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Jabato
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« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2007, 06:34:05 AM »

There is a very large community of spanish inmigrants in Venezuela. Most of them come from the Canary Islands, that they left in the sixties heading to Venezuela. I've got two cousins living over there that I met for the first time a couple of years ago. One of them is married to a dentist. Her husband has been investing money for years in his business for years.

Now Chavez says that as Health is a very important aspect of life and many venezolanos are poor, prices of private doctors has to be fixed. Now dentists or doctors are not free to charge the amount of money they decide for their services. And this is communism, folks.

There are a lot of poor people in Venezuela. Don't you think that these people would live a better life if Chavez would use the money he is getting from the venezuelan oil in the poors instead giving it to Cuba or Bolivia in order to achieve his nasty socialists plans?

Saludos

Chavez is an egotistical and powermad blowhard. He associates his goodwill with that of his nation.

OswaldTheOsprey

That's very very true OswaldTheOsprey. He's always saying that foreing countries -former spanish PM Aznar among others- are insulting Venezuela when they are only talking about him. But Chavez believes he is Venezuela.
My cousin and her husband are plannig to leave Venezuela to live in Miami, where they hope to create richness, to employ people and for sure to earn as much money as they can, but I'm confident that they would rather prefer to stay at home, to contribute in their own country, Venezuela, but Chavez is ruinning the country.
What a pity!
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OswaldTheOsprey
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« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2007, 08:28:18 AM »

The ones to pity are the poor Venezuelans. Perhaps they will continue to defy the swine at the next election!

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gommi
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« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2007, 08:04:31 PM »

Quote
Is your own affiliation to capitalism?  For example, what are your views on Castro?  I am trying to establish if your views are biased by influence deriving from your own culture.
I support a Capitalist system accompanied by an advanced welfare state, and am a strong believer in parliamentary democracy. Therefore I am very opposed to Castro's rule, and dislike anything remotely dictatorial.

Quote
Now Chavez says that as Health is a very important aspect of life and many venezolanos are poor, prices of private doctors has to be fixed. Now dentists or doctors are not free to charge the amount of money they decide for their services. And this is communism, folks.
Well, admittedly even moderate Socialist governments typically nationalize health care. A larger problem is that Chavez is nationalizing heavy industries.





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OswaldTheOsprey
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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2007, 05:45:28 AM »

Quote
Is your own affiliation to capitalism?  For example, what are your views on Castro?  I am trying to establish if your views are biased by influence deriving from your own culture.
I support a Capitalist system accompanied by an advanced welfare state, and am a strong believer in parliamentary democracy. Therefore I am very opposed to Castro's rule, and dislike anything remotely dictatorial.

Quote
Now Chavez says that as Health is a very important aspect of life and many venezolanos are poor, prices of private doctors has to be fixed. Now dentists or doctors are not free to charge the amount of money they decide for their services. And this is communism, folks.
Well, admittedly even moderate Socialist governments typically nationalize health care. A larger problem is that Chavez is nationalizing heavy industries.







I actually support Nationalization as a preventative to international high finance and multinationalism-globalism in a word. Do not confuse me with marxists as I am a Social Fascist. Nationalism and Social Justice. Putin is a good example of a leader I admire.

OswaldTheOsprey
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Viv.
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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2007, 10:24:31 AM »

I suspect I should research Chavez myself to find the answers I seek.

Jabato, is the idea of nationalizing medical care not to improve the lot of the poor?  Is it only your relatives who should have a comfortable lifestyle?   Tongue

Seriously, I understand people wanting to make money and reach a level of comfort, but it is not more important to provide accesible healthcare for the population?  In the UK we have both private and national health dental care.
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Viv.
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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2007, 10:26:57 AM »

Quote
Is your own affiliation to capitalism?  For example, what are your views on Castro?  I am trying to establish if your views are biased by influence deriving from your own culture.
I support a Capitalist system accompanied by an advanced welfare state, and am a strong believer in parliamentary democracy. Therefore I am very opposed to Castro's rule, and dislike anything remotely dictatorial.

Quote
Now Chavez says that as Health is a very important aspect of life and many venezolanos are poor, prices of private doctors has to be fixed. Now dentists or doctors are not free to charge the amount of money they decide for their services. And this is communism, folks.
Well, admittedly even moderate Socialist governments typically nationalize health care. A larger problem is that Chavez is nationalizing heavy industries.

Gommi, is there a particular country which currently exemplifies the ideal of what you propose?  Or does it not exist at the moment?
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gommi
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« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2007, 06:09:50 AM »

Gommi, is there a particular country which currently exemplifies the ideal of what you propose?  Or does it not exist at the moment?
Hmm. Perhaps Sweden. All Scandinavian "social democracies".
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Jabato
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« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2007, 12:17:48 AM »

Viv wrote:
Jabato, is the idea of nationalizing medical care not to improve the lot of the poor? 


Yes of course, but not at the expense of normal citizens within a capitalistic economy. Is the idea of using the enormous amount of money that comes from Venezuela's oil to invests in Venezuela? I mean, don't you think that that money would help to improve the lot of the poor?

Viv wrote:
Is it only your relatives who should have a comfortable lifestyle?   


Come on Viv!

Viv wrote:
Seriously, I understand people wanting to make money and reach a level of comfort, but it is not more important to provide accesible healthcare for the population?  In the UK we have both private and national health dental care.


In Spain we do have both, private and National health Service, too, it is Venezuela the one who only has private health care services. Chavez should use the money from oil to offer the venezuelan people a national health care service and not only that, he should also use the money to adopt social measures in order to improve the lot of the poor but what's he doing with their oil which means the most important income of the country? He is using it for HIS crazy political dreams, because, what do you think he is meaning when he is proposing socialisms?

Saludos
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