I don't know if other people have religious experiences that are not induced by God.  I know some people claim to have a religious experience then describe something that is inconsistent with God's character.  How can we know for sure?  We can't.  There is no probe that we can attach to query the chemical and electrical pulses and read their mind.  The material self does not reveal that information only the mind can tell us.

Notice that this is also true of any experience I claim.  You can't know if I really experienced it or not. 

This is not true of the placebo effect or the fact that people can voluntarily change their mind and therefore become well.  These two situations are observable and testable in clinical trials.  Clearly they are better examples of what I am trying to describe.

You are grasping at straws, barney.  We know clearly that the placebo effect and the voluntary change of mind are belief initiated events that go on to alter both the brain and body.  We know this from clinical trials conducted countless numbers of times.

The strength of your prejudice for materialism never ceases to amaze me.  When I see your unwillingness to concede even the most obvious it is clear that you are a prisoner of your own mind.  It is your dogmatic commitment to methodological naturalism that causes you to always see ignorance as an explanation for events that that are far better explained by non-materialist causation.  You are the poster child for the truth that methodological materialism has a blind spot.

barney, on any piece of evidence that goes against your worldview you ratchet up your standard of what constitutes understanding to the point you can claim we don't understand anything.  This behavior is the behavior of someone with a prejudice.  It is the blind spot of methodological materialism that won't let you even consider that an alternative is possible.  To use the standard you are employing here amounts to a special pleading.  We don't apply this standard to gravity.  We don't know precisely how gravitons work and yet since we can observe the effects you accept it.


The claims are historical and they have been tested against literary and historical rules of evidence.  The testimony is well documented and corroborated.  This is why they are accepted.  I do not accept them on their lack of) scientific merit.  You can't apply science to historical singularities.   


I don't object to this treatment of MM particularly when one adds the additional fact the MM is not the end all be all and the warning that it has a blind spot.  With this in mind it is a fine tool.  better still though is pure empiricism.


That's right it is evidence, it relies on a kind of perception you reject and it comes with a caveat.


These are issues of perception and one's ability to perceive nonmaterial things.  The same logic that recognizes we can't really know all or even much of what there is to know about anything is the logic I use.  We have had this discussion when one points out the reality that without perception we can't know if material exists at all. 

No, I claim we can test for design (design is a non-materialistic cause) and we can in some cases perceive the non-material.  Your struggle is that you prejudicially deny both.  Your blindspot is that your faith in materialism causes you to consider only materialistic explanations.  This despite the reality that original design of new function is fundamentally non-materialistic.  Original design cannot be reduced to material mechanisms.

Quit mixing topics barney.  I offered examples of phenomenon that are non-materialistic and are testable.  You continue to divert to red herring discussions. 

Design is a testable premise and you know it.

I'm sorry barney when you asked me several posts back to provide examples of non-material mechanisms and evidence for mind independent of matter, I thought you wanted me to answer your question and discuss them.


It is studied and well understood except by those wedded to materialism.  People are given a pill they believe will help them get better, they change their mind and outlook and their mind alters body chemistry and they get better.  I am not fixed on what or whom we can attribute this too, but I am nearly certain we cannot attribute it to materialism.


Sorry barney, your problem is that you are unwilling to move off square one.  If science can show how material can manifest experiences then please identify the material.  What is the electro chemical process?  What proteins are involved?  How precisely does this work?  What probe can we construct to induce such an experience?  Please, barney, you are a fraud.