Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
   
Karma: +213/-207
Posts: 4,100
"You do not speak for the rest"
|
 |
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2007, 10:22:14 AM » |
|
I just find it hard to believe a politician can say, "this is how we're gonna do it" without SOMEONE with a background in economics sighning off on it.
Maybe I just over estimated the competency of our leaders...
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune. - Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back. - Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
|
Gojira
|
 |
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2007, 11:33:11 AM » |
|
I just find it hard to believe a politician can say, "this is how we're gonna do it" without SOMEONE with a background in economics sighning off on it.
Maybe I just over estimated the competency of our leaders...
I think you under estimate the self-interest of our politicians.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Our democracy has created an environment of indecision at times of impending crisis.
If life is easy for you, then you aint livin.
|
|
|
|
jpn of Seattle
|
 |
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2007, 12:20:29 PM » |
|
Maybe I just over estimated the competency of our leaders... The Bush Administration has proven time and again that they regard their ideology inviolate, regardless of what the experts say.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
What you got is everything-and I mean everything—run by the political arm. It’s the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis. --John DiIulio, former White House official
|
|
|
|
gommi
|
 |
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2007, 07:31:11 PM » |
|
Mainstream economists knew that Bush's tax cuts in 2001, 2, and 3 were not designed to stimulate the economy. They were designed to slash taxes on Bush's key supporters. They were politically motivated, not economically motivated.
Economists didn't suggest that the AMT patch not be paid for. Politicians (Republican ones) decided to do that because they didn't want 5,000 of the richest Americans to be forced to pay their taxes at the same rates that the rest of us do.
Is it not the supply-side belief that reducing taxes for the wealthy increases private investment and production? This does not necessarily benefit middle and lower class employees, and it has evidently created debt, though surely it stimulates the economy.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: December 23, 2007, 07:34:47 PM by gommi »
|
Logged
|
\"Ideological and moral confusion are signs of a higher consciousness\".
__IAPer since 2004__
|
|
|
|
jpn of Seattle
|
 |
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2007, 09:48:27 PM » |
|
Is it not the supply-side belief that reducing taxes for the wealthy increases private investment and production? This does not necessarily benefit middle and lower class employees, and it has evidently created debt, though surely it stimulates the economy. Tax cuts for rich investors probably stimulates the economy, but not by much, especially if they balloon the deficit. There are several policies which can be used to stimulate the economy, but each have more or less "bang for the buck." Mainstream economics holds that money funneled into the hands of those in need are the best target for reviving a sluggish economy because they stimulate demand. During a recession it makes little sense to give money to investors because plants and factories and retail stores won't increase their inventories or develop new production into the face of falling demand. Recessions are beaten by increasing demand. The way to increase demand most directly is to channel the money towards people who will spend it right away. That spending then drives hiring and ordering more inventory, etc. They would also not drive the deficit up by much, since high deficits cause interest rates to climb higher than they otherwise would. Bush's initial tax cuts were not designed to stimulate the economy, nor was that the reason given for them by the Bushies when they were rolled out, since there was no recession at the time. At the time there were budget surpluses, and the Bushies were frantic to reduce the surpluses. Which they did quite well. After the surpluses were eliminated and the recession took hold, the tax cuts stayed but the rationale for them changed--now suddenly they were designed to stimulate the economy. Little wonder that the actual economic effect that they had was so pitiful (I'm referring to the fact that this has been one of the weakest post-recession economy we've had since WWII). Bottom line: Bush's tax cuts were not originally designed to stimulate the economy. They were designed to reduce federal revenues and thus the budget surplus.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
What you got is everything-and I mean everything—run by the political arm. It’s the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis. --John DiIulio, former White House official
|
|
|
|
neue regel
|
 |
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2007, 05:52:07 PM » |
|
Bush's initial tax cuts were not designed to stimulate the economy, nor was that the reason given for them by the Bushies when they were rolled out, since there was no recession at the time. At the time there were budget surpluses, and the Bushies were frantic to reduce the surpluses. Which they did quite well. After the surpluses were eliminated and the recession took hold, the tax cuts stayed but the rationale for them changed I would go back and restudy exactly what happened. You have intentionally (or unintentionally) misrepresented what happened and why.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
freethinker
|
 |
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2007, 08:01:39 PM » |
|
Its tax avoidance for the wealthy plain and simple...It is Quid Pro Quo...It is repiglicon pay off for support from the rich constituents of the repiglicon party. Its not fair, it doesn't do as is supposed and it actually hurts the economy, 98% of the people and the country as a whole. The Wealthy's tax avoidance bill is reverse Robin Hoodism is mean spirited greed, given the green light and official sanction by a failure of a president and a failure of a congress. If economic stimulation were truely the goal, tax cuts should start at the very bottom and go up through the middle class. When people in a lower economic class find a few dollars more in their pay checks they spend it...HERE ...IN THE USA...NOW.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: December 24, 2007, 08:08:01 PM by freethinker »
|
Logged
|
Yes we can ...and now we will...
|
|
|
|
neue regel
|
 |
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2007, 08:46:19 PM » |
|
If economic stimulation were truely the goal, tax cuts should start at the very bottom and go up through the middle class. That's an odd idea in as much as the poor don't pay taxes. Of course the middle class do. The rich pay people to figure out how to avoid taxes which is a direct result of over-taxation.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
   
Karma: +213/-207
Posts: 4,100
"You do not speak for the rest"
|
 |
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2007, 09:14:48 PM » |
|
I thought tax cuts made jobs... which in turn stimulate the economy, I guess... but the primary function of tax cuts makes jobs and then you just hope for the best.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune. - Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back. - Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
|
neue regel
|
 |
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2007, 09:27:12 PM » |
|
I thought tax cuts made jobs Tax cuts themselves don't make jobs. However, more cashflow in the economy makes people have more capital to spend which creates demand for products, which reduces inventory which causes people to hire more people to meet the demand. Pretty simple, really.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
   
Karma: +213/-207
Posts: 4,100
"You do not speak for the rest"
|
 |
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2007, 09:45:43 PM » |
|
I thought tax cuts made jobs Tax cuts themselves don't make jobs. However, more cashflow in the economy makes people have more capital to spend which creates demand for products, which reduces inventory which causes people to hire more people to meet the demand. Pretty simple, really. Well, that's how they make more jobs. I just didn't get all technical.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune. - Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back. - Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
|
freethinker
|
 |
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2007, 04:39:03 AM » |
|
The rich pay people to figure out how to avoid taxes You mean like Junior ,Shooter and half of congress?? 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Yes we can ...and now we will...
|
|
|
|
neue regel
|
 |
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2007, 05:58:27 AM » |
|
Well, that's how they make more jobs. I just didn't get all technical. Government is most effective when they get out of the way. You mean like Junior ,Shooter and half of congress?? Grin Yes, the rich half including Kerry, Kennedy, etc...
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
gommi
|
 |
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2007, 08:44:49 AM » |
|
During a recession it makes little sense to give money to investors because plants and factories and retail stores won't increase their inventories or develop new production into the face of falling demand. Recessions are beaten by increasing demand. The way to increase demand most directly is to channel the money towards people who will spend it right away. Good old Keynesianism.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
\"Ideological and moral confusion are signs of a higher consciousness\".
__IAPer since 2004__
|
|
|
|
freethinker
|
 |
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2007, 03:21:36 PM » |
|
Yes, the rich half including Kerry, Kennedy, etc... Are you trying to say that Kerry and Kennedy voted for Bush's wealthy tax avoidence bill?? I think you are wrong there Mr new rule...again. I meant the half of congress who worship and pander to the wealthiest 2% of the nation, the repiglicon party members
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Yes we can ...and now we will...
|
|
|
|