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Author Topic: Republican Label Their Efforts to Add to Debt a "Huge Win"  (Read 734 times)
neue regel
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« Reply #30 on: December 25, 2007, 04:13:26 PM »

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Bush's wealthy tax avoidence bill??

??
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2007, 08:34:16 PM »

Good old Keynesianism.

Yeah, yeah, I know, I didn't mention monetary policy enough. Fair point.
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2007, 08:45:33 PM »

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I thought tax cuts made jobs

Tax cuts themselves don't make jobs. However, more cashflow in the economy makes people have more capital to spend which creates demand for products, which reduces inventory which causes people to hire more people to meet the demand.

Pretty simple, really.

Exactly. More cashflow increases aggregate demand which stimulates supply and everything's hunky-dorey again.

But the key question is, what are the best policies for increasing cashflow?

That's pretty simple, too. The best policies for stimulating an economy are policies that put money in the hands of those who will immediatly spend it. Like low and middle class people. Like the unemployed.

Not the rich--yuppies swapping stock doesn't do a whole lot for increasing cashflow. According to Mark Zandi at Economy.com:

"[High income earners] are substantially less likely to spend any tax savings quickly than lower and middle income households. An estimated less than one-half of any tax benefit to households with incomes above the median are spent within one-year of receiving the benefit. This compares to nearly 90% for households with incomes below the median."

Zandi assigns an estimate of how much GDP increases for each dollar spent on stimulus (or lost in tax revenue).

Extend Federal Unemployment Benefits-----1.73
10% Personal Income Tax Bracket ---------1.34
State Government Aid---------------------1.24
Child Tax Credit Rebate--------------------1.04
Marriage Tax Penalty----------------------0.74
Alternative Minimum Tax Adjustments------0.67
Personal Marginal Tax Rate Reductions-----0.59
Business Investment Writeoff--------------0.24
Dividend-Capital Gain Tax Reduction-------0.09
Estate Tax Reduction---------------------0.00
source (pdf)

The three most effective policies for stimulating the economy are all focused on low income or needy individuals: extending federal unemployment benefits, reducing the lowest tax bracket, and state aid (which is targetted at the needy).
Another plus to these policies is that they are also temporary (except for the 10 percent bracket), whereas less effective and hugely costly policies like tax cuts for the rich are permanent--once the economy has recovered, extending unemployment benefits can end. But Bush's tax cuts keep ballooning the deficit, year after year after year, long after the economy no longer needs that stimulus.

Since this is all so simple, why did the Bushies largely refuse to select the most effective, temporary, and least costly measures? Because those policies run counter to conservative ideology.

Pretty simple, really--ideology trumps reality.

Anyway, since we're possibly approaching a period of recession, we may need to choose policies to deal with it. This time around, could we please choose policies that make economic sense?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2007, 08:48:51 PM by jpn of Seattle » Logged

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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2007, 07:53:34 AM »

Meanwhile, the original point of this post was to point out how fiscally irresponsible Republicans are. I'm reminded of their "Contract On With America" back in the 1990s. Remember that? Here's the first item:

1. THE FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY ACT: A balanced budget/tax limitation amendment and a legislative line-item veto to restore fiscal responsibility to an out- of-control Congress, requiring them to live under the same budget constraints as families and businesses. http://www.house.gov/house/Contract/CONTRACT.html

Can we sue them for breech of contract?
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neue regel
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« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2007, 08:08:41 AM »

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Since this is all so simple, why did the Bushies largely refuse to select the most effective, temporary, and least costly measures? Because those policies run counter to conservative ideology.

Pretty simple, really--ideology trumps reality.

Anyway, since we're possibly approaching a period of recession, we may need to choose policies to deal with it. This time around, could we please choose policies that make economic sense?

"This year's numbers show that both the income share earned by the top 1 percent and the tax share paid by the top 1 percent have reached all-time highs. In 2005, the top 1 percent of tax returns paid 39.4 percent of all federal individual income taxes and earned 21.2 percent of adjusted gross income, both of which are significantly higher than 2004 when the top 1 percent earned 19 percent of AGI and paid 36.9 percent of federal individual income taxes."

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

When the bottom 50% of wage earners only pay 3% of all taxes, please explain to me how there can be any meaningful tax cut for them...please.

I suppose would could go ahead and eliminate what is left of that 3% and have this group pay 0% of federal income tax. So that adds back 3% capital to be spent, which, of course it will be.

Then what? No property tax? No sales tax?

Then you seem genuinely surprised that the 'rich' try and shelter (legally) some of their 36.9%.
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neue regel
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« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2007, 08:10:02 AM »

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Can we sue them for breech of contract?

I say that every Congressman/lady who has added pork spending to a bill SHOULD be sued. And that would include the porkiest of all, the current Congress.
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2007, 10:29:25 AM »

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Since this is all so simple, why did the Bushies largely refuse to select the most effective, temporary, and least costly measures? Because those policies run counter to conservative ideology.

Pretty simple, really--ideology trumps reality.

Anyway, since we're possibly approaching a period of recession, we may need to choose policies to deal with it. This time around, could we please choose policies that make economic sense?

"This year's numbers show that both the income share earned by the top 1 percent and the tax share paid by the top 1 percent have reached all-time highs. In 2005, the top 1 percent of tax returns paid 39.4 percent of all federal individual income taxes and earned 21.2 percent of adjusted gross income, both of which are significantly higher than 2004 when the top 1 percent earned 19 percent of AGI and paid 36.9 percent of federal individual income taxes."

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

When the bottom 50% of wage earners only pay 3% of all taxes, please explain to me how there can be any meaningful tax cut for them...please.

I suppose would could go ahead and eliminate what is left of that 3% and have this group pay 0% of federal income tax. So that adds back 3% capital to be spent, which, of course it will be.

Then what? No property tax? No sales tax?

Then you seem genuinely surprised that the 'rich' try and shelter (legally) some of their 36.9%.

Actually it's been 35%, not 36.9, since 2001. That's half of what it was some forty years ago. At what point should we start expecting the rich to not be criminals?

You have ignored the most effective policies for stimulating the economy, which are not tax cuts.
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2007, 10:31:23 AM »

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Can we sue them for breech of contract?

I say that every Congressman/lady who has added pork spending to a bill SHOULD be sued. And that would include the porkiest of all, the current Congress.

I notice that you never back up your assertions with sources. On what do you base your assertion that this congress is "the porkiest of all"?
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neue regel
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« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2007, 12:48:17 PM »

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At what point should we start expecting the rich to not be criminals?

What in hell does that mean?

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I notice that you never back up your assertions with sources. On what do you base your assertion that this congress is "the porkiest of all"?

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/bulletin/bulletin_071217.htm

Fortunately, Bush has kept the Dems from spending all they wanted. Still to much, though.
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2007, 05:32:25 PM »

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I notice that you never back up your assertions with sources. On what do you base your assertion that this congress is "the porkiest of all"?

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/bulletin/bulletin_071217.htm

Your source doesn't include the claim that this congress is "the porkiest of all." Perhaps you used the wrong link?

I also note that you have no response whatsoever to my post above explaining why Bush's policy choices early in his presidency were the wrong choices for our economy.

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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2007, 05:41:40 PM »

Fortunately, Bush has kept the Dems from spending all they wanted. Still to much, though.

Yes, thank god for your hero, George W Bush.
Without him we wouldn't be spending hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of lives in a pointless, unnecessary war against a nation that had nothing to do with 9/11.
Without him we might still have budget surplusses.
Without him we might still be admired in the world.
Without him we might have a Justice Department dedicated to...oh, I don't know...justice?

Without him our nation's future might still be bright.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 06:18:26 PM by jpn of Seattle » Logged

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neue regel
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« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2007, 06:17:53 PM »

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I also note that you have no response whatsoever to my post above explaining why Bush's policy choices early in his presidency were the wrong choices for our economy.

I did address it with my charts on WHO pays taxes. So now I ask...how do you give a tax cut to someone who isn't really paying taxes? I'm open to ideas.
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2007, 06:20:25 PM »

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I also note that you have no response whatsoever to my post above explaining why Bush's policy choices early in his presidency were the wrong choices for our economy.

I did address it with my charts on WHO pays taxes. So now I ask...how do you give a tax cut to someone who isn't really paying taxes? I'm open to ideas.

No you didn't. My post explained what economic stimulus policies were most effective and why. Since the two most effective policies don't even involve taxes, how do your charts on WHO pays taxes apply to my post?

Address my post and then I'll be happy to answer your question, which is really quite simple.
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« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2007, 01:50:41 AM »

Mainstream economists knew that Bush's tax cuts in 2001, 2, and 3 were not designed to stimulate the economy. They were designed to slash taxes on Bush's key supporters. They were politically motivated, not economically motivated.

Economists didn't suggest that the AMT patch not be paid for. Politicians (Republican ones) decided to do that because they didn't want 5,000 of the richest Americans to be forced to pay their taxes at the same rates that the rest of us do.
Is it not the supply-side belief that reducing taxes for the wealthy increases private investment and production? This does not necessarily benefit middle and lower class employees, and it has evidently created debt, though surely it stimulates the economy.
But the effect largely comes from stealing from the young and unborn.  That isn't compassionate or conservative.
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neue regel
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« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2007, 08:25:25 AM »

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The three most effective policies for stimulating the economy are all focused on low income or needy individuals: extending federal unemployment benefits, reducing the lowest tax bracket, and state aid (which is targetted at the needy).

Do you have anything to offer that includes getting people back on their feet and not just a handout? Is there anything in your plan that promotes people making their own way and not just taking from one group and giving it to another?

Do you have any data to support the idea that this plan would work?

You should see from my charts that the 'reducing the lowest tax bracket' has little to no effect.

Your system has been tried and has failed miserably. Paying people to not work is a ridiculous. Clinton signed welfare reform after vetoing it twice. Finally, Morris convinced Clinton that it would help his poll numbers so he got on board. It has gotten people back to work with great success and OFF the government dole.

Did you not learn ANYTHING from that?
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