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Author Topic: Could thought be an illusion?  (Read 669 times)
Philosofear
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« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2007, 08:00:33 PM »

Well, I think Descartes summed it up nicely with I think therefore I am, however the radical skeptic doesn't buy this, and so I think I put it in terms this way...

"If I percieve anything at all, I must therefore be" Then again this presupposes the "I" and so...

"If it is given that something percieves that is unitary such that I am, I must therefore be"

or better yet!

"given that their is a perception of my own existence, I therefore must be."

If the radical skeptic can't agree to that, I would promptly slap them  Wink
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Callum
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« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2007, 02:32:12 AM »

Well, I think Descartes summed it up nicely with I think therefore I am, however the radical skeptic doesn't buy this, and so I think I put it in terms this way...

"If I percieve anything at all, I must therefore be" Then again this presupposes the "I" and so...

"If it is given that something percieves that is unitary such that I am, I must therefore be"

or better yet!

"given that their is a perception of my own existence, I therefore must be."

If the radical skeptic can't agree to that, I would promptly slap them  Wink


Na....   Grin   

The best you can say is that perception exists.  The object of ANY perception is subject to scepticism.   As you all know, I think that scepticism is a null argument - it destroys itself.  The problem is not whether it is right (its not) but why our common sense view can be undermined by it.   Descartes answer that we have god there as the ultimate guarantor of reality and our 'true' perception of it is, as we see from this board, a highly controversial solution.  It is neither proven nor disproven. 

So lets go back to the only thing we know - perception exists.  We also know that - as far as we can perceive and rationalise - the only things capable of perception-as-a-propositional-attitude is a brain;  and the only thing capable of manipulating propositional attitudes is a brain developed to approximately the degree of our species  (its a scale - chimps and dolphins are close, maybe 'up there' with us).   Sea Urchins do not (we believe) have conversations about dualism: but even 'primitive' tribes of humans lost in New Guinea or Amazonas do.  There is no doubt that the brain is a centre of things mental. 

The next question is whether there is anything 'beyond' the physical make-up of the brain that can be associated with mentality.  Luckily, no society far enough advanced scientifically to both ask this and to have the experimental means to probe it... no such society is so morally degenerate as to actually DO experiments to pursue the question.  The upshot is that we have little in the way of a corpus of observations on which to theorise.  (Patton alluded to this in his 'resurrection' thread).   However, with the exception of some anecdotal stuff, heavily hyped with emotional prejudgements, we have nothing to suggest that there is anything other than the physical organisation of the brain to account for consciousness.  Note that we are coming close to an account of the way the perception modules work - has anyone found on the net that amazing diagram of the various functions of the visual cortex and their interactions  (sorry, I can't remeber who produced it)?  We have some good theories of how the brain shoots of commands down the nerves to produce actions.  What is lacking at present is the bit in between!  But the input and output functions are patently physically based - the central processing is described by many theoretical models - multiple drafts, fame-in-the-brain, reflexive connectivity, hermeneutic processing, etc.  But none of the research programs stemming from these seems to include a search for the interface with 'spirit stuff'....  unless of course Templeton has some people on it.   What I am saying is that insofar as it gives us a direction to investigate, theories that start to account for the few observations we have and ontological parsimony...  a monist approach wins hands down.
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Philosofear
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« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2007, 07:22:44 AM »


So lets go back to the only thing we know - perception exists.  We also know that - as far as we can perceive and rationalise - the only things capable of perception-as-a-propositional-attitude is a brain;  and the only thing capable of manipulating propositional attitudes is a brain developed to approximately the degree of our species  (its a scale - chimps and dolphins are close, maybe 'up there' with us).   Sea Urchins do not (we believe) have conversations about dualism: but even 'primitive' tribes of humans lost in New Guinea or Amazonas do.  There is no doubt that the brain is a centre of things mental. 

The next question is whether there is anything 'beyond' the physical make-up of the brain that can be associated with mentality.  Luckily, no society far enough advanced scientifically to both ask this and to have the experimental means to probe it... no such society is so morally degenerate as to actually DO experiments to pursue the question.  The upshot is that we have little in the way of a corpus of observations on which to theorise.  (Patton alluded to this in his 'resurrection' thread).   However, with the exception of some anecdotal stuff, heavily hyped with emotional prejudgements, we have nothing to suggest that there is anything other than the physical organisation of the brain to account for consciousness.  Note that we are coming close to an account of the way the perception modules work - has anyone found on the net that amazing diagram of the various functions of the visual cortex and their interactions  (sorry, I can't remeber who produced it)?  We have some good theories of how the brain shoots of commands down the nerves to produce actions.  What is lacking at present is the bit in between!  But the input and output functions are patently physically based - the central processing is described by many theoretical models - multiple drafts, fame-in-the-brain, reflexive connectivity, hermeneutic processing, etc.  But none of the research programs stemming from these seems to include a search for the interface with 'spirit stuff'....  unless of course Templeton has some people on it.   What I am saying is that insofar as it gives us a direction to investigate, theories that start to account for the few observations we have and ontological parsimony...  a monist approach wins hands down.

Monism... gah! Why don't we just throw everything in one barrel and call it one substance!  Grin

First of all you said that the brain was the centre of the mental, and I believe you said more then which the brain is responsible. I have never seen my brain or even apprehended such a thing as a brain before being told it existed, and to tell you the truth perhaps everyone is lieing to me and their is no such thing as a brain! However, without going down this absurd path I can say that I know nothing of my brain. So the thing that is responisble of my mental ability, doesn't really know itself, and unless you would crack open a skull to see it, you wouldn't really know of it either.

My point here is that the brain, isn't really the mental processes themselves, neurons firing etc. may correspond to thoughts and mental images but they aren't the mental imagery themselves. If you were to ask me if the brain is necessary to think as I do in the physical world, I would say yes, but if you asked me is the brain necessary to think anywhere, I would be far less certain.

Furthermore, these physicalist arguments for monism seem to forget about qualia, free will, and pretty much everything that makes up human life. Everything is apparently reducable to this substance called matter. The only reason we know matter exist is because we see it and feel it, without your senses, matter wouldn't exist to you. Your senses themselves are composed of qualitative data which in and of itself doesn't actually exist, which makes more holes for the monism argument.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2007, 08:20:18 AM »

Its pretty close to an Argument from ignorance to claim that because you can't observe your brain that it doesn't have to do with your thoughts.

Empirical evidence shows that we can tweak thoughts through material methods (damaging or fixing certain areas of the brain, or introducing chemicals).  The Dualist has to provide an explanation for the regularity of what happens when certain areas of the brain are affects and they produce the same result.
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Callum
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« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2007, 09:05:08 AM »

Monism... gah! Why don't we just throw everything in one barrel and call it one substance!  Grin

Voila un barrel de substance.  Well lets go wild and make that 17 different basic substances....   So you are a fully fledged substance dualist, are you?  Wow, I've never met one before!

Quote
My point here is that the brain, isn't really the mental processes themselves, neurons firing etc. may correspond to thoughts and mental images but they aren't the mental imagery themselves.

... brave man.  Now prove that assertion.  Just what are 'the mental imagery' then?

Quote
If you were to ask me if the brain is necessary to think as I do in the physical world, I would say yes, but if you asked me is the brain necessary to think anywhere, I would be far less certain.

.. and is YOUR brain necessary to think as YOU do anywhere else?  In other words could philosofear be 'realised' on some other platform (always assuming we could capture everything about your thought)?  Could you suddenly be transported into, say, MY brain?

Quote
Furthermore, these physicalist arguments for monism seem to forget about qualia, free will, and pretty much everything that makes up human life. Everything is apparently reducable to this substance called matter. The only reason we know matter exist is because we see it and feel it, without your senses, matter wouldn't exist to you. Your senses themselves are composed of qualitative data which in and of itself doesn't actually exist, which makes more holes for the monism argument.


Aaaaaaagh, he said the 'FW' words!  While awaiting the hordes of theism to pile in, we'll continue the discussion...

a) I don't agree that qualia even EXIST as separate entities.  We've brushed past this topic before and I'm still waiting for some means of defining them. 
b)  'everything that makes up human life' Huh???   I read a good discussion on this a month or so ago. I'll look it up for you - it was Dennett of course.  Hope you have the garlic and pentacle in place!
c) You seem to be think that 'qualitative data' can stand alone as something apart from the stuff it is a quality of.  Care to explain?
d) there are 'pleasure centres' in the brain - physically. These are the obverse of the infamous D-fibres that are firing when you feel pain.  Between them they make a powerful explanatory axis.  Why don't you think about what could happen when one particular memory, associated with a pleasure-hit, gets activated?  Kids learn to like sugar cos the rush they get activates pleasure centres, they dislike touching hot things because they hurt...  where's the problem?
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IamMe
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« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2007, 02:28:50 PM »

We also know that - as far as we can perceive and rationalise - the only things capable of perception-as-a-propositional-attitude is a brain.

Assuming our perceptions are accurate, of course. If not, the brain may be just as imaginary as anything else.
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Philosofear
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« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2007, 02:32:07 PM »

Its pretty close to an Argument from ignorance to claim that because you can't observe your brain that it doesn't have to do with your thoughts.

Empirical evidence shows that we can tweak thoughts through material methods (damaging or fixing certain areas of the brain, or introducing chemicals).  The Dualist has to provide an explanation for the regularity of what happens when certain areas of the brain are affects and they produce the same result.

I believe the burden of proof is on you to prove that their is a brain, however don't bother showing me pictures as I believe it is quite true that their is a brain however the point is that knowledge of the brain comes from percieving the brain using your senses which again is qualitative data...
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Philosofear
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« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2007, 02:40:12 PM »


b)  'everything that makes up human life' Huh???   I read a good discussion on this a month or so ago. I'll look it up for you - it was Dennett of course.  Hope you have the garlic and pentacle in place!



Well, physicalism does sort of ignore what encompasses human life, it tailors to just physical explanations. I was being a bit excessive, however, physicalism ignores much of the aspects of human life and passes them off as illusions. I think calling things your uncomfortable with illusions is just ignoring the problem
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Philosofear
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« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2007, 02:45:45 PM »

Monism... gah! Why don't we just throw everything in one barrel and call it one substance!  Grin

Voila un barrel de substance.  Well lets go wild and make that 17 different basic substances....   So you are a fully fledged substance dualist, are you?  Wow, I've never met one before!


Yes its a shame their aren't more of me Smiley, you seem either to get the atheist monists who bend philosophy to support what they want it to, or the religious fanatics who know nothing about philosophy. (Sorry for the previous statement, as it is generalizing and profiling but I feel for the most part its true.)

17 different substances... not a bad idea Smiley but in all seriousness I see dualism everywhere, kind of like catholics see Mary in their alphabet soup!

I wouldn't say im necessarily a cartesian dualist, though he was on the right track, but yes I'm a full-fledged substance dualist.
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Callum
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« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2007, 02:55:02 PM »

I believe the burden of proof is on you to prove that their is a brain, however don't bother showing me pictures as I believe it is quite true that their is a brain however the point is that knowledge of the brain comes from percieving the brain using your senses which again is qualitative data...

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Assuming our perceptions are accurate, of course. If not, the brain may be just as imaginary as anything else.

Come on guys - do you really want to start playing the sceptical game?  Start that and NOBODY gets to make any progress since at base scepticism is simply non-rational.  If you want to be sceptical, and be it consistently then you have to doubt EVERYTHING.  This isn't a theist-style argument where you can believe that a nihilist draw means you win.  A nihilist draw means that knowledge is denied.

philo, perceptions are not 'qualitative' data in the same sense as our 'feelings' and 'what it is like'-ness.  The contents of perceptons are not the same as their phenomenal aspects (if such exist).

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I think calling things your uncomfortable with illusions is just ignoring the problem

I think that reducing some long careful discussions about WHY something is illusory to simply 'calling' is rather a more ostrich-like approach than you are accusing others of.   The standard article throwing doubt on the solidity of qualia is 'Quning Qualia'.  Its about 30 pages or more and in many anthologies of Philosophy of Mind.  I'll be happy to debate your responses to it.
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IamMe
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« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2007, 03:05:21 PM »

Come on guys - do you really want to start playing the sceptical game?  Start that and NOBODY gets to make any progress since at base scepticism is simply non-rational.  If you want to be sceptical, and be it consistently then you have to doubt EVERYTHING.  This isn't a theist-style argument where you can believe that a nihilist draw means you win.  A nihilist draw means that knowledge is denied.

philo, perceptions are not 'qualitative' data in the same sense as our 'feelings' and 'what it is like'-ness.  The contents of perceptons are not the same as their phenomenal aspects (if such exist).

I don't think scepticism is non-rational. No one could deny the existence of perception, in some form.

But, obviously we have to assume we perceive reality in order to discuss anything.
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Callum
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« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2007, 12:14:11 PM »

I don't think scepticism is non-rational. No one could deny the existence of perception, in some form.

But, obviously we have to assume we perceive reality in order to discuss anything.

Let me be careful here to distinguish our facility for doubt (evolutionarily useful, scientifically fundamental) from methodological scepticism (destroying knowledge, paralysing discussion).   Scepticism is non-rational because it contains an internal contradiction.  The standard argument for perception scepticism is along the lines of a dialogue...

a.  I know I have hands
b.  Do you know that you are not a brain in a vat (being manipulated by an evil genius, etc)
a.  Of course not
b.  But you agree that if you don't know that you are not a brain in a vat, then you can't know you have hands,
a.  (O dear...)
b.  Therefore you don't know you have hands

The problem with the argument is the conditional.  It tries to establish the principle that if you don't know something on which some other knowledge depends, then you cannot know that other knowledge.  The common sense response is that we all know squillions of things without knowing their logical antecedents.  But the problem for the sceptic goes deeper, because (to steal his approach) we cannot know that the evil genius isn't messing with our powers of intellection as well as the inputs to it.  And if we apply the sceptic conditional using this, we cannot know that what we are inferring is correct - the argument can be applied to the sceptical argument itself.  Thats why I say it is non-rational, because according to its own terms, it cannot be argued as a rational sequence.
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IamMe
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« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2007, 12:43:25 PM »

I don't think scepticism is non-rational. No one could deny the existence of perception, in some form.

But, obviously we have to assume we perceive reality in order to discuss anything.

Let me be careful here to distinguish our facility for doubt (evolutionarily useful, scientifically fundamental) from methodological scepticism (destroying knowledge, paralysing discussion).   Scepticism is non-rational because it contains an internal contradiction.  The standard argument for perception scepticism is along the lines of a dialogue...

a.  I know I have hands
b.  Do you know that you are not a brain in a vat (being manipulated by an evil genius, etc)
a.  Of course not
b.  But you agree that if you don't know that you are not a brain in a vat, then you can't know you have hands,
a.  (O dear...)
b.  Therefore you don't know you have hands

The problem with the argument is the conditional.  It tries to establish the principle that if you don't know something on which some other knowledge depends, then you cannot know that other knowledge.  The common sense response is that we all know squillions of things without knowing their logical antecedents.  But the problem for the sceptic goes deeper, because (to steal his approach) we cannot know that the evil genius isn't messing with our powers of intellection as well as the inputs to it.  And if we apply the sceptic conditional using this, we cannot know that what we are inferring is correct - the argument can be applied to the sceptical argument itself.  Thats why I say it is non-rational, because according to its own terms, it cannot be argued as a rational sequence.

OK, understood.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2007, 12:54:45 PM »

Yeah, it took me a while to get this. Or rather, it took me a while to be comfortable to say "I know x".

When you get a total skeptic its useless.  Someone like Zuk is one of those. He will be happy to expound upon the validity of some political theory, but then turn around and question all of existence - so what good is any of his wasted breath on politics?

This returns us to the Inference to the Best Explanation, which Callum can flesh out more than I, but basically it is no crime of logic or philosophy to declare that some things are known for the purpose of moving on to other things. Especially when those known things are fairly universal (e.g., we all experience ourselves as human beings with heads and bodies,on a planet in space that is affected by gravity. Among other things.)

We can trust our observations, we just need to question our interpretations but not to the point of negating everything.  So, we can admit that gravity exists since we all experience it, we just needed to debate on the cause. But the minute someone declares that gravity may not exist, and we are just imagining it, we have lost all reference.
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