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neue regel
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« on: December 11, 2007, 07:43:44 AM » |
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The threat information he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks." http://apnews.excite.com/article/20071211/D8TF9GHO2.htmlA number, maybe dozens? http://apnews.excite.com/article/20071211/D8TFA9QG3.htmlThis car bomb killed 45. Let's say this is an average death toll from an 'attack.' So a 'number' could easily mean 5 attacks x 45 deaths = 225. Dozens? OK, let's say 3 dozen attacks x 45 deaths = 1,620 possible lives saved by 30 seconds of waterboarding. Is waterboarding effective. Absolutely. If the technique saves lives is it worth it? IMO, absolutely. |
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tejtej
ta terjast
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2007, 07:49:40 AM » |
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Is waterboarding effective. Sure it is, people will say anything to stop it. The threat information he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks." And the actual quote from the first link: waterboarding of Abu Zubaydah got him to talk in less than 35 seconds. The technique, which critics say is torture, probably disrupted "dozens" of planned al-Qaida attacks |
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« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 07:54:42 AM by tejtej »
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Slovenc, tvoja zemlja je zdrava in pridnim nje lega najprava.
Pólje, vinograd, gora, morjé, ruda, kupčija tebe rede.
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neue regel
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2007, 08:09:57 AM » |
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probably disrupted "dozens" of planned al-Qaida attacks I would think that the estimate of possibly 'dozens' was arrived at given the information he gave. So to expound, certainly some, probably dozens. |
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Perrin
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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2007, 08:22:22 AM » |
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The problem is these numbers are not confirmed, the person giving this "testimony" did not witness the waterboarding (so it is hard to say if that was really all that was done), it is also hard to gage what negative outcomes have come from the US engaging in torture, has violence increased toward the US now that it is apparent we don't have any moral authority when it comes to how prisoners are treated or how information is extracted, has anyone confessed or provided information that isn't true just to stop the torture and how has that hurt our efforts.
Has some good come from the US engaging in torture techniques (and yes, Water-boarding is torture)? Yes
Has some bad come from the US engaging in torture techniques? Yes
Does the good outweigh the bad in terms of information gathered? Unknown
Does the good outweigh the bad in terms of our reputation? NO, though at this rate, it might not matter after much longer.
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A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject.
In America, anyone can be president. That\\\'s one of the risks you take.
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tejtej
ta terjast
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Karma: +22/-2
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a.k.a. COS
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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2007, 08:23:42 AM » |
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probably disrupted "dozens" of planned al-Qaida attacks I would think that the estimate of possibly 'dozens' was arrived at given the information he gave. So to expound, certainly some, probably dozens. Certainly some, probably dozens, the world was saved and waterboarding is the prime example of what the free and civilised west has to offer. I have developed scepticism related to all intelligence information. What if the confession is just a CIA bluff? This way, all plans where the Abu Zubaydah participated should be canceled and at least 1 person can't be used as a role model for would be terrorists. Who needs torture? |
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Slovenc, tvoja zemlja je zdrava in pridnim nje lega najprava.
Pólje, vinograd, gora, morjé, ruda, kupčija tebe rede.
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neue regel
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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2007, 09:55:23 AM » |
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I think we have every right to get information from people we KNOW want to inflict death on innocent people. Absolutely EVERY right. Waterboarding is BARELY in the realm of torture, if at all. Personally, I put it in line with sleep deprivation more so than the kind of stuff John McCain went through.
The fact we are willing to go after these people is encouraging.
If we don't stop pussy-footing around, we'll be wiped out. I want terrorists to think we are the worst bad-asses out there. I want the to FEAR seeing an American troop.
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Totino
High Society
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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2007, 10:34:21 AM » |
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The reality neue is that the people above you need to stop making war politically correct. War is not a PC enviroment.
If you make it a PC enviroment, you will lose. That is what is currently happening.
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 \\\"Since you\\\'re going to loose everything anyway when you die, you might as well get rid of it now\\\" \\\"All creations, including god, originate in the mind\\\" |
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Opmod
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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2007, 11:07:29 AM » |
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The problem is these numbers are not confirmed, the person giving this "testimony" did not witness the waterboarding (so it is hard to say if that was really all that was done), it is also hard to gage what negative outcomes have come from the US engaging in torture, has violence increased toward the US now that it is apparent we don't have any moral authority when it comes to how prisoners are treated or how information is extracted, has anyone confessed or provided information that isn't true just to stop the torture and how has that hurt our efforts.
Has some good come from the US engaging in torture techniques (and yes, Water-boarding is torture)? Yes
Has some bad come from the US engaging in torture techniques? Yes
Does the good outweigh the bad in terms of information gathered? Unknown
Does the good outweigh the bad in terms of our reputation? NO, though at this rate, it might not matter after much longer.
Lets face it though, amoung those that are being interrogated there was never any leniency or quater given anyway. They were taking hostages and choping heads off with dull swords well before Gitmo. I guess I am a bad chiurstian, I have never been able to [practice the do unto others thing. I like Do unto others AS THEY DO TOWARDS YOU! |
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\\\"Something witty\\\" Some self impotant blowhard
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tejtej
ta terjast
Global Moderator
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Karma: +22/-2
Posts: 140
a.k.a. COS
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2007, 11:37:39 AM » |
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War is not a PC enviroment. Torture and reliable confessions are not correlated. Torture doesn't win wars. Try more bullets. They were taking hostages and choping heads off with dull swords well before Gitmo. Torture as revenge. Come to the Balkans and start talking to people. You'll soon see the problem, the good and the bad become psychopaths. |
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Slovenc, tvoja zemlja je zdrava in pridnim nje lega najprava.
Pólje, vinograd, gora, morjé, ruda, kupčija tebe rede.
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Opmod
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2007, 11:58:40 AM » |
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They were taking hostages and choping heads off with dull swords well before Gitmo. Torture as revenge. Come to the Balkans and start talking to people. You'll soon see the problem, the good and the bad become psychopaths. No arguement there. I was responding to a question. Do the US fo5rces face MORE violence becuase of the PERCIEVED tortures? My responce would be NO, it was there already. Torture and killing innocents is the staple of the terrorists arsenal. |
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\\\"Something witty\\\" Some self impotant blowhard
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Perrin
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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2007, 12:32:03 PM » |
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No one is here to make war more PC, but one must ask the questions, does torture really help, and so far it comes up either as Unknown or No. We have no proof that torture has truly aided in the disruption of DOZENS of plots. We are putting our trust on the words of a group who is devoted to secrets and destruction of evidence. Besides, I believe it was mentioned in earlier threads that information that has been obtained through torture is not very reliable.
Now, Opmod, your response doesn't seem to take into account the fact that we have been torturing before our folks were captured and beheaded. In fact, you seem to be making my point by showing how our prisoners are handled.
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A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject.
In America, anyone can be president. That\\\'s one of the risks you take.
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Opmod
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« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2007, 12:46:30 PM » |
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Now, Opmod, your response doesn't seem to take into account the fact that we have been torturing before our folks were captured and beheaded. In fact, you seem to be making my point by showing how our prisoners are handled.
Soldiers and indead civilians were being catured and tortured from about 1 week after the photo op on the USS Aircraft Carrier. When was Gitmo formed? I KNOW Abu G was well after they dragged US Soldiers behind jeeps thorugh town then beheaded them in public while celebrating. While I am not argueing that we did NOT use it before even Desert Storm, I am saying it was not common knowledge as it has become now. I have little doubt that torture, and I mean REAL tortue like ripping out toe nails and methodically breaking bones, jumper cable to the testies kind of toture, has been something very common in the "intel" community for decades. BUT it was not being broadcast on the evening news about. |
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\\\"Something witty\\\" Some self impotant blowhard
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neue regel
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« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2007, 12:49:42 PM » |
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We have no proof that torture has truly aided in the disruption of DOZENS of plots. How do we know this? I WANT them to think that if they are dumb enough to plot against us, we might pull their fingernails out. |
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Perrin
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« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2007, 01:01:07 PM » |
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We have no proof that torture has truly aided in the disruption of DOZENS of plots. How do we know this? I WANT them to think that if they are dumb enough to plot against us, we might pull their fingernails out. Really, it may even be one of the reasons they plot against us to begin with. Just saying, not everything is as myopic as some wish to believe. |
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A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject.
In America, anyone can be president. That\\\'s one of the risks you take.
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neue regel
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« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2007, 01:12:25 PM » |
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They have been attacking us for 25 years.
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