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Perrin
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« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2007, 01:38:39 PM » |
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They have been attacking us for 25 years.
And we just started torturing folk for information?  ? wow, you proved your point. /sarcasm (just to be clear, I am not saying that the only reason for us being attacked is due to our torture policies, just pointing out that they probably don't help) |
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« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 01:53:34 PM by Perrin »
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A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject.
In America, anyone can be president. That\\\'s one of the risks you take.
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Totino
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« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2007, 03:03:56 PM » |
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War is not a PC enviroment. Torture and reliable confessions are not correlated. Torture doesn't win wars. Try more bullets. We can't even fire more bullets. People like you have been the end result of that. And the reality is anytime someone in the military does something warrior like, the PC train jumps all over them and calls them a murderer. Politicians don't mix with the war. And the PC media doesn't mix with the war. Mind your business in the US and leave the war up to the big boys. The reason we won early wars (IE: WWII) is because the allies came in, wiped out the enemy, and moved on to the next town. You have to play rough, tough, and dirty if you want to win wars. Do that now and you're a murderer in the PC media's eye. And as for waterboarding "torture" (your definition, not mine), it has infact led to tons of good intel, whether you wish to admit it or not. And let the ignorant bleeding heart attacks on me begin...... |
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« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 03:13:50 PM by Totino »
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 \\\"Since you\\\'re going to loose everything anyway when you die, you might as well get rid of it now\\\" \\\"All creations, including god, originate in the mind\\\" |
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Totino
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« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2007, 03:15:27 PM » |
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They have been attacking us for 25 years.
And we just started torturing folk for information? ? wow, you proved your point. /sarcasm (just to be clear, I am not saying that the only reason for us being attacked is due to our torture policies, just pointing out that they probably don't help) Neue can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he is saying that they attacked us before the torture on them started. So that would render your "they attack us because of torture" spiel untrue. But yes, there could be other policies that have led to attacks, as you said. |
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\\\"Since you\\\'re going to loose everything anyway when you die, you might as well get rid of it now\\\" \\\"All creations, including god, originate in the mind\\\" |
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Retro Fit
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« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2007, 04:08:25 PM » |
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I think we have every right to get information from people we KNOW want to inflict death on innocent people. Absolutely EVERY right. Waterboarding is BARELY in the realm of torture, if at all. Personally, I put it in line with sleep deprivation more so than the kind of stuff John McCain went through.
The fact we are willing to go after these people is encouraging.
If we don't stop pussy-footing around, we'll be wiped out. I want terrorists to think we are the worst bad-asses out there. I want the to FEAR seeing an American troop. Waterboarding is torture when applied under the pretext that the torturers might kill you. Only a fool or a Sadist could think otherwise. The biggest problem with your opinion is that you are trying to legitimize torture. You obviously haven't bothered to consider the ramifications of such an act. Its real easy to sit at home and shoot your mouth off as if you knew what you were talking about, but the reality is that torture is something that is done under the gravest circumstances without publicity and without Uncle Sam giving you his official "Okee dokey". War is hell and there are going to be times where soldiers will feel compelled to force captive's to talk. That is to be expected. But, to try and legalize such sadistic, morally corrupt activity is an abomination. You have allowed fear to cloud your judgment. If Americans allow media fanned hysteria to turn them into the likes of our "head chopping" enemies, then we have lost our identities and our self respect. Think about it. |
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neue regel
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« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2007, 04:45:08 PM » |
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RF, I understand what you are saying and you are right...it is potentially a slippery slope. Some people would say that making them stand in uncomfortable positions is torture too. The question is...where is the line? From what I know, waterboarding causes absolutely no permanent damage. I'm sure it's scary when applied. I guess that is the point. We HAVE to go after these savages somehow. I want them to fear us. (just to be clear, I am not saying that the only reason for us being attacked is due to our torture policies, just pointing out that they probably don't help) Fighting back....period....has inflamed the islamic radicals. That is to be expected. But it is something we must do. |
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Abraxas
Global Moderator
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"You do not speak for the rest"
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« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2007, 05:27:03 PM » |
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We have no proof that torture has truly aided in the disruption of DOZENS of plots. How do we know this? I WANT them to think that if they are dumb enough to plot against us, we might pull their fingernails out. Yeah, maybe we should cut off their testicles, put them in a bag and mail them to our enemies. I mean, Mafia Dons do it. Why can't we? /sarcasm Seriously, we're talking about the US Government... not Hostile. The more we become like our enemies the less legitimate this war comes, the less often we can pretend to be the "bastian of responcible government", and the less respect we earn abroad. |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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freethinker
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« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2007, 06:14:15 PM » |
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The more we become like our enemies the less legitimate this war comes, the less often we can pretend to be the "bastian of responcible government", and the less respect we earn abroad. Smartest wisdom posted in this thread. Applaud! |
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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neue regel
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« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2007, 07:09:40 PM » |
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The more we become like our enemies the less legitimate this war comes, the less often we can pretend to be the "bastian of responcible government", and the less respect we earn abroad. Agreed. The minute we start killing people randomly, slicing and dicing heads for sport, pull tongues from the head, cut off hands, throw people from building tops, burn, hang from hooks, break arms I will absolutely stand opposed to that. Someone please explain how waterboarding is torture but sleep deprivation is not. |
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Abraxas
Global Moderator
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"You do not speak for the rest"
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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2007, 07:16:37 PM » |
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The more we become like our enemies the less legitimate this war comes, the less often we can pretend to be the "bastian of responcible government", and the less respect we earn abroad. Agreed. The minute we start killing people randomly, slicing and dicing heads for sport, pull tongues from the head, cut off hands, throw people from building tops, burn, hang from hooks, break arms I will absolutely stand opposed to that. Where does pulling finger nails fit in? Someone please explain how waterboarding is torture but sleep deprivation is not.
I don't entirely know where I stand on waterboarding. It's simulated drowning... and on just that, I think it's toruture... but I almost drowned as a kid, so deep water is torturous for me. |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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freethinker
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« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2007, 07:33:17 PM » |
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I don't entirely know where I stand on waterboarding.
It's simulated drowning... and on just that, I think it's toruture... but I almost drowned as a kid, so deep water is torturous for me. v. drowned, drown·ing, drowns v. tr. To kill by submerging and suffocating in water or another liquid. It is not simulated drowning ...it is drowning |
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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neue regel
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« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2007, 07:53:43 PM » |
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It is not simulated drowning ...it is drowning From the link...'Depending on the exact setup, the water may or may not actually get into the person's mouth and nose; but the physical experience of being underneath a wave of water seems to be secondary to the psychological experience. The person's mind believes he is drowning, and his gag reflex kicks in as if he were choking on all that water falling on his face. http://people.howstuffworks.com/water-boarding.htmAs on a flight simulator in Disney World, one has the SENSATION one is moving and flying, thus the thrill. But in reality, the rider hasn't left their seat and is totally out of harms way. During waterboarding, one BELIEVES they are drowning, thus the desire to talk so quickly. It is NOT drowning. To say otherwise is to not understand the technique. |
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freethinker
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« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2007, 09:16:13 PM » |
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If waterboarding is such a harmless illusion, and it works so well, then why don't we take them to Disneyland so they believe they are going to die in a falling elevator and we can harmlessly scare them into telling us those vital secrets.
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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Totino
High Society
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« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2007, 09:17:02 PM » |
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The tower of terror isn't scary
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\\\"Since you\\\'re going to loose everything anyway when you die, you might as well get rid of it now\\\" \\\"All creations, including god, originate in the mind\\\" |
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freethinker
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« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2007, 09:19:31 PM » |
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The tower of terror isn't scary
But new rule just said waterboarding isnt dangerous either, its just an illusion like Disnyland. |
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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tejtej
ta terjast
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a.k.a. COS
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« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2007, 10:02:23 PM » |
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We can't even fire more bullets. People like you have been the end result of that. And the reality is anytime someone in the military does something warrior like, the PC train jumps all over them and calls them a murderer. Politicians don't mix with the war. And the PC media doesn't mix with the war. Mind your business in the US and leave the war up to the big boys.
The reason we won early wars (IE: WWII) is because the allies came in, wiped out the enemy, and moved on to the next town. You have to play rough, tough, and dirty if you want to win wars. Do that now and you're a murderer in the PC media's eye. I (and I stress this because I don't know what you mean by "people like you") don't live in a dream land of where war is considered a clean job. I can understand the killing, the chaos of war, what effect it has on people and what are the long term consequences. Fine. Waterboarding, torture and/or any serious interrogation are not done in the heat of the battle (and not even by soldiers) so these excuses don't apply. Forensics, surveillance photos, informers and tapping provide much more reliable data, which is why they are used more often than waterboarding. Play rough, tough, and dirty. But not behind the fronts. It's there where the mix between politics and war produces the worst results. |
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Slovenc, tvoja zemlja je zdrava in pridnim nje lega najprava.
Pólje, vinograd, gora, morjé, ruda, kupčija tebe rede.
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