PinkTickingClocks
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Posts: 182
Be always at war with your vices.
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« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2007, 07:37:06 PM » |
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Well, seems to me that everyone's a pessimist and loves to bash the US. How about for a change you list one item or idea you like about the UNITED STATES
OK, i'll start.
1.) The ability to amend the constitution.
go...
Like I said, there's loads of stuff I like about the US, but one of the few things I don't like about the US is all that flag waving and nationalism. This is precisely what this thread is about. I'm from the states, and all i hear are the is complains about bureaucratic inefficiencies and that's why we have forums is to argue and vent about it. There are things i do and don't like, but for once i want to hear some good things.
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If only the transcendent moments were as timeless as a broken clock.
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Leo
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Posts: 106
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« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2007, 08:18:12 PM » |
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Well, seems to me that everyone's a pessimist and loves to bash the US. How about for a change you list one item or idea you like about the UNITED STATES
OK, i'll start.
1.) The ability to amend the constitution.
go...
Like I said, there's loads of stuff I like about the US, but one of the few things I don't like about the US is all that flag waving and nationalism. This is precisely what this thread is about. I'm from the states, and all i hear are the is complains about bureaucratic inefficiencies and that's why we have forums is to argue and vent about it. There are things i do and don't like, but for once i want to hear some good things. We all like to hear good things about ourselves, our families, and our nations, so I totally understand that. But what does it really mean if you say something good about yourself, your family, or your nation? Shouldn't compliments come from others, if they are to have any significance? Like I just said I really like Americans as a people. Isn't that more of a compliment than an American saying isn't this or that great about us? Or do you not think that way? 
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Retro Fit
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« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2007, 09:04:49 PM » |
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Calling America “The Land of the free” used to mean something. But, that was a long time ago, and even then a more appropriate term would have been “The land of the free IF you have a LOT of money”. In the US one in every 32 American adults is behind bars, on probation or on parole . That’s 738 per 100,000 people. By way of comparison, the UK has 148 per 100, 000. France has 85 per 100, 000. Germany has 95. Spain 145.Russia 611. Sweden 82. Italy 104. Switzerland 83, Poland 230. China has only 118 per 100, 00 even though their population tops 1,548,498. Japan 62. Thailand 256. India 30. Iran 214. Mexico 196. What is most disturbing is that there are more people incarcerated in the US than any other country ever in the recorded history of man. In the year 2006 someone was arrested for marijuana every 40 seconds. This effort is a tremendous waste of criminal justice resources that diverts law enforcement personnel away from focusing on serious and violent crime, but, it is instrumental for states to do so in order to collect Federal funding. The total number of marijuana arrests in the U.S. for 2005 far exceeded the total number of arrests in the U.S. for all violent crimes combined, including murder, manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault.
Annual marijuana arrests have more than doubled since the early 1990s. Enforcing marijuana prohibition costs taxpayers between $10 billion and $12 billion annually. $10 to $12 BILLION a year to punish US citizens for using HEMP? Stupid waste caused by stupid people for their love of money. They have made the punishment of using hemp far more detrimental then the actual hemp use, so their “Public welfare” reasoning behind hemp laws is total cow excrement. The War on drugs is nothing more than a war on America. And a giant “cash cow” for the U.S. Government. Privately owned “correctional contractor” companies so large they are listed on the New York Stock exchange, benefit from “the war on drugs”. Their stock go’s up the more inmates they house.
Every year there are thousands of new Laws written. Thousands of new ways for the Government to extort your hard earned money from you. And there’s no help in sight. So, forgive me if I don't get all teary eyed with you guys over how "free" we are here. As long as this corrupt and unconstitutional Government exists we are nothing but a bunch of cattle.
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Retro Fit
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« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2007, 09:42:47 AM » |
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I guess I deviated from the topic a tad. What I love about America is her natural grace. There is every type of climate in America. Thousands of miles of coastline. Lush forests. Arid deserts. Snow topped mountains. Whatever climate you prefer, you can find it here. It is a beautiful country. And you can also find some great people here. People that are warm, caring, considerate. People who truly care. People who band together in times of trouble to help those less fortunate. Communities that live together as a team protecting one another and sharing the good times and weathering the bad, together. I was born here in America and I will die here. I wouldn't have it any other way.
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Abraxas
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Karma: +212/-207
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"You do not speak for the rest"
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« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2007, 10:44:43 AM » |
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Leo, with respect, there are levels of freedom in the US that Europe simply doesn't reach. Of course, the UK isn't Iran, for sure, but when Germany even thinks about banning Scientology, or that London has the CCTV's and all of Europe has weird "freedom of speech" restrictions... I'm just saying that these things (especially) wouldn't even be considered in America cause there would be political repercussions for the people that introduced them.
With that said, I really appreciate what you said about Americans. I traveled to Italy and had the opertunity to wear our uniform (it's a military uniform but not a military school) or change. I elected to change cause I didn't know how much the Italians liked us. My friends didn't change.
And I was shocked at how happy Italians were to see us. I mean, I didn't think they were gonna spit on us, but I didn't expect them to be extra friendly. It was very surprising.
Anyway, what I'm saying is that while there aren't many differences between our country and Canada or the UK or the rest of Europe, there are still some subtle differences.
But we're all good people, no matter what border you live in.
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune. - Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back. - Hunter S. Thompson
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PinkTickingClocks
Full Member
 
Karma: +12/-13
Posts: 182
Be always at war with your vices.
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« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2007, 11:48:19 AM » |
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But we're all good people, no matter what border you live in.
AWW.. you guys. I think I'm going to cry  *group hug*
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If only the transcendent moments were as timeless as a broken clock.
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Factinista
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Karma: +17/-35
Posts: 224
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« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2007, 03:30:43 PM » |
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I love the United States because of our legacy to stand up against authority.
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Pond Scum
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« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2007, 05:40:10 PM » |
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What is great about the USA?
The American people are generous with their money.
THAT'S ABOUT IT. The principles that were used to found this nation are great, but they are rarely followed anymore.
BTW, good post Retrofit. I agree with you totally.
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Leo
Full Member
 
Karma: +10/-3
Posts: 106
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« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2007, 01:25:48 AM » |
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Leo, with respect, there are levels of freedom in the US that Europe simply doesn't reach. Of course, the UK isn't Iran, for sure, but when Germany even thinks about banning Scientology, or that London has the CCTV's and all of Europe has weird "freedom of speech" restrictions... I'm just saying that these things (especially) wouldn't even be considered in America cause there would be political repercussions for the people that introduced them.
With that said, I really appreciate what you said about Americans. I traveled to Italy and had the opertunity to wear our uniform (it's a military uniform but not a military school) or change. I elected to change cause I didn't know how much the Italians liked us. My friends didn't change.
And I was shocked at how happy Italians were to see us. I mean, I didn't think they were gonna spit on us, but I didn't expect them to be extra friendly. It was very surprising.
Anyway, what I'm saying is that while there aren't many differences between our country and Canada or the UK or the rest of Europe, there are still some subtle differences.
But we're all good people, no matter what border you live in.
OK, Abraxas, I actually agree with much of what you wrote, and I do find Americans to be a very kind and generous people. But that has little to do with freedoms. The only two countries I actually know a little about are the UK and a tiny bit about Australia (coz I am here at the moment). So let's discuss the freedoms in the USA vs the Freedoms in the UK or Australia. You mentioned the CCTV cameras in parts of London. How are they affecting anyone's freedom? In fact, they are not even in the parts of England where I grew up. I don't want this to turn into a 'my dad is bigger than your dad' kind of discussion, but please tell me one real and meaningful freedom that an American enjoys, that a Brit or Aussie doesn't. And please don't say guns, coz the freedom to kill each other is not an advantage.  So rather than me ask you, please just tell me what freedoms you have that I don't have. Oh and I understand that there are subtle differences between all societies. I see from your posts that you are an intelligent person who uses reason rather than just reacts, so I am really interested in what freedoms you see yourself having, that I don't. 
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JFree89
Full Member
 
Karma: +9/-30
Posts: 154
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« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2007, 11:30:23 PM » |
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The fact that America, the most powerful and influential country in the world, believes in similar ideologies and morals to my own country. I feel safe knowing this fact.
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Pond Scum
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« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2007, 01:21:50 AM » |
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Leo, with respect, there are levels of freedom in the US that Europe simply doesn't reach. Of course, the UK isn't Iran, for sure, but when Germany even thinks about banning Scientology, or that London has the CCTV's and all of Europe has weird "freedom of speech" restrictions... I'm just saying that these things (especially) wouldn't even be considered in America cause there would be political repercussions for the people that introduced them.
With that said, I really appreciate what you said about Americans. I traveled to Italy and had the opertunity to wear our uniform (it's a military uniform but not a military school) or change. I elected to change cause I didn't know how much the Italians liked us. My friends didn't change.
And I was shocked at how happy Italians were to see us. I mean, I didn't think they were gonna spit on us, but I didn't expect them to be extra friendly. It was very surprising.
Anyway, what I'm saying is that while there aren't many differences between our country and Canada or the UK or the rest of Europe, there are still some subtle differences.
But we're all good people, no matter what border you live in.
OK, Abraxas, I actually agree with much of what you wrote, and I do find Americans to be a very kind and generous people. But that has little to do with freedoms. The only two countries I actually know a little about are the UK and a tiny bit about Australia (coz I am here at the moment). So let's discuss the freedoms in the USA vs the Freedoms in the UK or Australia. You mentioned the CCTV cameras in parts of London. How are they affecting anyone's freedom? In fact, they are not even in the parts of England where I grew up. I don't want this to turn into a 'my dad is bigger than your dad' kind of discussion, but please tell me one real and meaningful freedom that an American enjoys, that a Brit or Aussie doesn't. And please don't say guns, coz the freedom to kill each other is not an advantage.  So rather than me ask you, please just tell me what freedoms you have that I don't have. Oh and I understand that there are subtle differences between all societies. I see from your posts that you are an intelligent person who uses reason rather than just reacts, so I am really interested in what freedoms you see yourself having, that I don't.  I WAS HOPING I COULD ASK YOU A QUESTION, ONE YOU MIGHT THINK ABOUT FOR A WHILE BEFORE YOU ANSWER......... In the long run, can freedom exist without privacy?
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freethinker
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« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2007, 10:02:22 AM » |
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The coolest thing about US government is the way the branches are set up to watch, check and balance the others. A good deal of thought was wisely put into this concept by the framers of the constitution. Of course there is an element in our government that hates this idea and does all it can to subvert this balance, block the checks and gain supreme rule over the other branches. I won't mention any names but his initials are... DICK CHENEY!
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
   
Karma: +212/-207
Posts: 4,097
"You do not speak for the rest"
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« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2007, 10:11:38 AM » |
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Leo, with respect, there are levels of freedom in the US that Europe simply doesn't reach. Of course, the UK isn't Iran, for sure, but when Germany even thinks about banning Scientology, or that London has the CCTV's and all of Europe has weird "freedom of speech" restrictions... I'm just saying that these things (especially) wouldn't even be considered in America cause there would be political repercussions for the people that introduced them.
With that said, I really appreciate what you said about Americans. I traveled to Italy and had the opertunity to wear our uniform (it's a military uniform but not a military school) or change. I elected to change cause I didn't know how much the Italians liked us. My friends didn't change.
And I was shocked at how happy Italians were to see us. I mean, I didn't think they were gonna spit on us, but I didn't expect them to be extra friendly. It was very surprising.
Anyway, what I'm saying is that while there aren't many differences between our country and Canada or the UK or the rest of Europe, there are still some subtle differences.
But we're all good people, no matter what border you live in.
OK, Abraxas, I actually agree with much of what you wrote, and I do find Americans to be a very kind and generous people. But that has little to do with freedoms. The only two countries I actually know a little about are the UK and a tiny bit about Australia (coz I am here at the moment). So let's discuss the freedoms in the USA vs the Freedoms in the UK or Australia. You mentioned the CCTV cameras in parts of London. How are they affecting anyone's freedom? In fact, they are not even in the parts of England where I grew up. I don't want this to turn into a 'my dad is bigger than your dad' kind of discussion, but please tell me one real and meaningful freedom that an American enjoys, that a Brit or Aussie doesn't. And please don't say guns, coz the freedom to kill each other is not an advantage.  So rather than me ask you, please just tell me what freedoms you have that I don't have. Oh and I understand that there are subtle differences between all societies. I see from your posts that you are an intelligent person who uses reason rather than just reacts, so I am really interested in what freedoms you see yourself having, that I don't.  Specifically? No. No I can't, but I've never been to the UK or Australia and even if I did I wouldn't be there long enough to understand their "freedoms". My information usually comes from what I read on the paper (which, admittidly, could be biased). I have traveled, though, and my college is preparing me to become a mearchent marine, so I'll probably do much more in the future. I've been to 3 countries in Europe and was amazed at how many locals took the time to learn English. I never felt oppressed and the people there were always happy. But while I've been here discussions have come up over free speech and I'm usually surprised at the positions some Europeans take. Major Zee Lee (from Spain) often takes the side of more enforcement. For instance, say there's some jerk mobilizing people into groups and telling telling them to disrespect black people. I got the impression that in Europe that man could be arrested... but I don't think that's the case in the US. The jerk is entitled to say what he wants, but any person who ACTS on those words is punished. Saying mean things is not inherently illegal (though a recent court case has changed that precedent and it waits in the court system for an appeal). Anyway, my point is that it's subtle stuff. Again, I cite the request by German politicians to ban Scientology. Look, I know it's a joke religion and the whole thing is kinda silly... but ban it? I'm just saying the thought would never even cross an American's mind. But that's Germany... and I don't know about the UK or Australia well enough to comment.
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune. - Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back. - Hunter S. Thompson
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Leo
Full Member
 
Karma: +10/-3
Posts: 106
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« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2007, 10:51:57 PM » |
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I WAS HOPING I COULD ASK YOU A QUESTION, ONE YOU MIGHT THINK ABOUT FOR A WHILE BEFORE YOU ANSWER.........
In the long run, can freedom exist without privacy?
I have thought about your question, and I understand the point you are trying to make. If you are locked in a room with a surveillance (Sp?) camera trained upon you 24 hours, you cannot be considered to enjoy freedom. But if you have the option of going somewhere where you know there will be surveillance, such as an airport or a bank, then you are free to do so or not as you please. So if your argument is that there are parts of London (one city of many in the UK) which have street cameras; ergo the British are not free, then I must respectfully disagree on the grounds that this makes no sense. Are Americans denied freedom just coz there are security cameras in airports? Ask yourself that question, and think about it for a while. And while you are at it, ask yourself if Americans are denied freedom when their telephones are tapped and their e-mails examined under the provisions of the Patriot Act. 
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Leo
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Karma: +10/-3
Posts: 106
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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2007, 11:21:06 PM » |
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Specifically? No. No I can't, but I've never been to the UK or Australia and even if I did I wouldn't be there long enough to understand their "freedoms". My information usually comes from what I read on the paper (which, admittidly, could be biased).
I have traveled, though, and my college is preparing me to become a mearchent marine, so I'll probably do much more in the future. I've been to 3 countries in Europe and was amazed at how many locals took the time to learn English. I never felt oppressed and the people there were always happy.
But while I've been here discussions have come up over free speech and I'm usually surprised at the positions some Europeans take. Major Zee Lee (from Spain) often takes the side of more enforcement. For instance, say there's some jerk mobilizing people into groups and telling telling them to disrespect black people. I got the impression that in Europe that man could be arrested... but I don't think that's the case in the US.
The jerk is entitled to say what he wants, but any person who ACTS on those words is punished. Saying mean things is not inherently illegal (though a recent court case has changed that precedent and it waits in the court system for an appeal).
Anyway, my point is that it's subtle stuff.
Again, I cite the request by German politicians to ban Scientology. Look, I know it's a joke religion and the whole thing is kinda silly... but ban it? I'm just saying the thought would never even cross an American's mind.
But that's Germany... and I don't know about the UK or Australia well enough to comment.
I think I understand the points you are making, especially about the subtlety of some of these issues. A big problem is what each nationality habitually regards as freedom. As far as I can see, apart from gun control - and that (to Brits) is a matter of legislation, rather than freedom as such - there are no differences in the level of 'freedoms' afforded citizens in the US and in the UK. In the societal sense, none of us enjoy absolute freedom. We all have to conform to the laws of the land, and to the mores of our particular society. And that is as it should be if we are to respect the social contract. My freedoms end at the tip of your nose. I cannot do what I please - and this includes vilifying some person or ethnic group - if it adversely affects someone else. There are laws regarding the incitement to racial hatred in many European countries, and I am pretty sure we have them in the UK. I do not see such laws as restraining personal freedom. There is no effective difference between attacking someone for his ethnicity, and standing in a pulpit and saying that God says such and such a race are evil and should be destroyed. The same applies to political rallies where someone is very popular or influential. But you are an intelligent man and you can see that it is a matter of degree. If someone were to say he doesn't subscribe to Judaism, and is not fond of some Jewish practices, he cannot be sanctioned for giving that opinion. But if someone says that Jews are inherently evil, and it is our duty to attack and kill Jews wherever we find them, then he will quite properly be charged under the racial vilification and incitement to violence laws. I am not trying to be offensive and I hope you will not take this as such, but if Americans see this as curtailing freedom, then perhaps you need to examine your own national values. Oh, and BTW, I agree with your objections to the concept of banning Scientology. It sounds like a load of cobblers to me, but everyone is entitled to their beliefs. 
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