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Author Topic: Separation of church and state  (Read 471 times)
jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2007, 10:20:59 PM »

I don't believe the issue is whether Huckabee can use religious allusions in his campaign. That's entirely up to him.
The point I make is that I don't want a fundamentalist in the White House. I don't like religious fundamentalism and I don't think it's a healthy position from which to lead any nation politically. If he is true to his fundamental religion as he has indicated he is (lots of examples in another thread), then his policies will reflect that fundamentalist point of view and I find those policies horrible.

Then don't vote for him.

Ahhhhhhhhh, the beauty of Democracy.

I won't. And I will post lots of posts about why not.

Ahhhhhhhhh, the beauty of political forums.
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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2007, 10:18:55 AM »

What does being any kind of religionist have to do with being good at running a country?

A persons beliefs will affect the way they decide on issues regardlessof what that belief structure is. Environmentalists, feminist, racist, christian, all are belief structures which will affect the manner in which someone will govern. All are equally valid as a means to decide who you want in office as each has its own trends.

You can never know what a person will do once in office but you can GUESS based on what that person beleives.

This is the only reason it is material.
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« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2007, 10:39:46 AM »

What does being any kind of religionist have to do with being good at running a country?

You can never know what a person will do once in office but you can GUESS based on what that person beleives.

This is the only reason it is material.

I have to disagree.

For instance Totino and I, both self admitted atheists, are pro-life. We're also rather conservative on several issues. I don't know how Daedulus stands, but if he is the same, you have to admit that's pretty... enlightning. Especially when you consider the number of self-admitted Christians that aren't.

This isn't criticism of character, but rather righting a misconception that atheists are immoral and careless and what have you.

I'm just trying to fight the establishment that says religion matters... when it's quite clear that it doesn't.
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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2007, 11:06:59 AM »

It is completely rediculous that you people have this debate without even mentioning the LAW that this quote is based on.

Seperation of Church and State, is NOT about keeping religion out of government.  It is about keeping Government out of Religion.

The LAW is very clear.  It is written in PLAIN F-CK-N English.  And it contains NO AMBIGUITY if you would just read it.

Is it okay that Huckabee uses a cross in his adds?  OF COURSE IT IS!!!! Is there a law against it?  NO!!!

If you don't want to vote for a Christian, than DON'T.  Let a bunch of heathens run our government into oblivion.  Let them continue to turn our country into another secular nation resembling CHINA.  Why do you think the UN gives all their governence awards to the Chineese? 

But let's take a look at this "seperation of church and state" law, better known as the FIRST AMENDMENT!!!!!

Quote from: THE FIRST AMENDMENT
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, [/color] [/size] or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Seems pretty clear to me.  Not only can Congress make NO LAW restricting Huckabees speech about religion ANY TIME HE WANTS TO MAKE IT, but they can also make NO LAW respecting the establishment of religion.  WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FORMING A CHURCH!!!!!  Although that is forbidden by this amendment as well.  They can't make laws giving the church money.  They can't make laws takeing money from the church.  They can't make laws forbidding ANYTHING about the church.

Is it wrong that Huckabee is a Christian?  Well, that's an opinion that you can have for yourself, but as far as his Christianity having ANYTHING to do with the, "seperation of church and state," as long as he doesn't espouse making laws regarding the church, it is PERFECTLY OKAY for him to be a minister of the Christian faith.  In fact, Congress can make NO LAW to prevent him for that!!!!

And you can DEFINITELY know what a person is going to do when he gets into office Mr. Daealus.  You can determine that by looking at his previous political record.  For Huckabee, that would be turning America into a SANCTUARY COUNTRY for ALL of Mexico's peasant and poor, so the rich Mexican's don't have to pay for them, and so his buddies over at Tyson Chicken, can have all the SLAVE LABOR they desire.  He will fund the increased strain on the American social system by raising taxes like a socialist, and further support programs like the NEA, so that ALL of the country's kids will be a stupid as the in-breed's coming out of Arkansas public fool system.  We know this, because he has done this in his own state.

But instead of discussing REAL issues that affect REAL Americans, you guys wanna sit around and talk about whether or not a Christian is what this country needs.  And which of the candidates doesn't at least pretend to be Christian?  The mormon?  Is he any better?  Why?  Cause he's mormon and not Christian? 

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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2007, 11:25:00 AM »

While this discussion is primarily about Huckabee's campaign or crusade, take your pick, one wonders what kind of a CIC he would make if he should by some strange twist of rabid, religious right fate, he might actually be elected? 

As the spouse of a retired military member, what should be allowable as a choice for those who serve where religion is concerned? This article from Military.com was in the e-mail this morning. Should the U.S. military be moving forward with the sword and the cross?  What is the effect of such possible indoctrination with recruits who may not be Christian?  What about those who are Jewish or even those who are, I suspect rare, but Muslim?

OT related to the Huckabee discussion? Maybe, but should be of interest when
church and state issues and the Constitution recruits swear to uphold and defend.

'God's Basic Training' Coming Under Fire
Military.com  |  By Bryant Jordan  |  December 19, 2007
The warriors pose for the camera in a group shot - some holding their weapons in one hand and their holy book in another.

Elsewhere, a poster bears a quotation calling for the killing of enemy leaders and forcing the defeated people to convert.

If you think the images come from Islamic fundamentalist training camps in remote regions of the Middle East you'd be wrong.
Poll: What should the relationship be between religion and the military?

The photo depicts Army trainees at Fort Jackson, S.C., where in addition to basic combat training recruits may also attend "God's Basic Training," while the poster -- boasting a quotation from conservative author Ann Coulter -- adorns the door of a Military Police office at Fort Riley, Kansas.

"These are startling and disgusting revelations of further unconstitutional behavior by technologically the most lethal organization ever created by humankind -- the U.S. military," said Mikey Weinstein, whose group, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, discovered the evangelical-oriented program at Fort Jackson and the Coulter poster at Fort Riley.

The group also has found at the Fort Riley exchange the Muslim-critical "Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam" on display right next to The Holy Bible. And at Malmstrom Air Force Base, Mont., a new "Enabled By Christ" Christian men's store operates at the base exchange, Weinstein said.

Officials with the bases in question and the Army and Air Force Exchange Service, however, deny there is any deliberate intent to impose a religious belief on troops, and a Fort Riley spokesman told Military.com command would look into Weinstein's allegations there.

"Command at Fort Riley takes the Army value of respect very seriously," said Maj. Nathan Bond."The things you have mentioned to me, if they are true, do not seem in line with the Army values of respect, and we will look into it."

Maj. Scott Bullock, chaplain for the 2nd Battalion, 39th Basic Combat Training Bn., at Fort Jackson, said in an interview the weekly Bible study program is strictly voluntary. "I make a simple announcement for new soldiers: If you choose to come to this Â… you are welcome to come, especially those from an evangelical protestant background."

Bullock said the recruits posing with their rifles in the photos do so because they've been directed to train as if they were in theater, taking their weapons with them everywhere they go. He said that recruits attending any religious service at the base chapel also would be carrying their weapons.

The "God's Basic Training" program is part of the military ministry backed by Campus Crusade for Christ.

Judd Anstey, a spokesman for AAFES in Dallas, described the "Enabled By Christ" store as a short-term concession, one of about 15 AAFES-wide -- of 50,000 -- that has a religious affiliation. He also said that 75 percent of the vendor's products are for hunting.

"Beyond what is in his stock," Anstey said, "if someone from another religion comes in, let's say, wanting a Torah or a Koran, he would order that special."

Weinstein said the officials can "tell it to the judge," since he plans to include the allegations into a lawsuit he and Army Specialist Jeremy Hall filed in September against the Defense Department over an officer's disrupting a meeting of non-Christian believers and allegedly threatening Hall with punishment for organizing the event, held in August at Camp Speicher, Iraq.

Hall is now stationed at Fort Riley. The case, filed in U.S. District Court in Kansas City, names as defendants Defense Secretary Robert Gates, representing the DoD, and Maj. Freddy Welborn, the officer who allegedly broke up the meeting and threatened to keep Hall from reenlisting.

Weinstein said they are seeking an injunction to prevent Welborn from conduct "that has the effect of establishing compulsory religious practices," and also asking Gates to ensure Welborn does not interfere with Hall's free speech rights.

Gates is named in the suit, Weinstein said, because he allegedly has let the military engage in a pattern of unconstitutional behavior regarding promotion of religious belief.

Earlier this year Weinstein's organization revealed that senior Pentagon officials participated in a Christian Embassy video, endorsing the work of the group and of Christianity, while in uniform and against the backdrop of the Pentagon.

The DoD Inspector General ultimately determined that seven officers, including four generals, engaged in misconduct by appearing in the videos. Weinstein said the Pentagon has never said what actions were taken against the officers.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,158531,00.html?ESRC=airforce-a.nl

 
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« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2007, 07:36:14 AM »

"God's Basic Training": Just one more in the continuing psychological destruction of the American armed forces.

Yes, it is "theatre" - puppet theatre.
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« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2007, 08:52:06 AM »

While this discussion is primarily about Huckabee's campaign or crusade, take your pick, one wonders what kind of a CIC he would make if he should by some strange twist of rabid, religious right fate, he might actually be elected? 

As the spouse of a retired military member, what should be allowable as a choice for those who serve where religion is concerned? This article from Military.com was in the e-mail this morning. Should the U.S. military be moving forward with the sword and the cross?  What is the effect of such possible indoctrination with recruits who may not be Christian?  What about those who are Jewish or even those who are, I suspect rare, but Muslim?

OT related to the Huckabee discussion? Maybe, but should be of interest when
church and state issues and the Constitution recruits swear to uphold and defend.

'God's Basic Training' Coming Under Fire
Military.com  |  By Bryant Jordan  |  December 19, 2007
The warriors pose for the camera in a group shot - some holding their weapons in one hand and their holy book in another.

Elsewhere, a poster bears a quotation calling for the killing of enemy leaders and forcing the defeated people to convert.

If you think the images come from Islamic fundamentalist training camps in remote regions of the Middle East you'd be wrong.
Poll: What should the relationship be between religion and the military?

The photo depicts Army trainees at Fort Jackson, S.C., where in addition to basic combat training recruits may also attend "God's Basic Training," while the poster -- boasting a quotation from conservative author Ann Coulter -- adorns the door of a Military Police office at Fort Riley, Kansas.

"These are startling and disgusting revelations of further unconstitutional behavior by technologically the most lethal organization ever created by humankind -- the U.S. military," said Mikey Weinstein, whose group, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, discovered the evangelical-oriented program at Fort Jackson and the Coulter poster at Fort Riley.

The group also has found at the Fort Riley exchange the Muslim-critical "Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam" on display right next to The Holy Bible. And at Malmstrom Air Force Base, Mont., a new "Enabled By Christ" Christian men's store operates at the base exchange, Weinstein said.

Officials with the bases in question and the Army and Air Force Exchange Service, however, deny there is any deliberate intent to impose a religious belief on troops, and a Fort Riley spokesman told Military.com command would look into Weinstein's allegations there.

"Command at Fort Riley takes the Army value of respect very seriously," said Maj. Nathan Bond."The things you have mentioned to me, if they are true, do not seem in line with the Army values of respect, and we will look into it."

Maj. Scott Bullock, chaplain for the 2nd Battalion, 39th Basic Combat Training Bn., at Fort Jackson, said in an interview the weekly Bible study program is strictly voluntary. "I make a simple announcement for new soldiers: If you choose to come to this Â… you are welcome to come, especially those from an evangelical protestant background."

Bullock said the recruits posing with their rifles in the photos do so because they've been directed to train as if they were in theater, taking their weapons with them everywhere they go. He said that recruits attending any religious service at the base chapel also would be carrying their weapons.

The "God's Basic Training" program is part of the military ministry backed by Campus Crusade for Christ.

Judd Anstey, a spokesman for AAFES in Dallas, described the "Enabled By Christ" store as a short-term concession, one of about 15 AAFES-wide -- of 50,000 -- that has a religious affiliation. He also said that 75 percent of the vendor's products are for hunting.

"Beyond what is in his stock," Anstey said, "if someone from another religion comes in, let's say, wanting a Torah or a Koran, he would order that special."

Weinstein said the officials can "tell it to the judge," since he plans to include the allegations into a lawsuit he and Army Specialist Jeremy Hall filed in September against the Defense Department over an officer's disrupting a meeting of non-Christian believers and allegedly threatening Hall with punishment for organizing the event, held in August at Camp Speicher, Iraq.

Hall is now stationed at Fort Riley. The case, filed in U.S. District Court in Kansas City, names as defendants Defense Secretary Robert Gates, representing the DoD, and Maj. Freddy Welborn, the officer who allegedly broke up the meeting and threatened to keep Hall from reenlisting.

Weinstein said they are seeking an injunction to prevent Welborn from conduct "that has the effect of establishing compulsory religious practices," and also asking Gates to ensure Welborn does not interfere with Hall's free speech rights.

Gates is named in the suit, Weinstein said, because he allegedly has let the military engage in a pattern of unconstitutional behavior regarding promotion of religious belief.

Earlier this year Weinstein's organization revealed that senior Pentagon officials participated in a Christian Embassy video, endorsing the work of the group and of Christianity, while in uniform and against the backdrop of the Pentagon.

The DoD Inspector General ultimately determined that seven officers, including four generals, engaged in misconduct by appearing in the videos. Weinstein said the Pentagon has never said what actions were taken against the officers.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,158531,00.html?ESRC=airforce-a.nl

 

I am not sure what this all even means. I am a Marine vet, we had Bible studies, and Christian Theme Kiosk's at the PX/BX, not unusual, I have never once been pressured to go to either from anyone in my chain of command, occasionally a fellow Marine might invite me to attend but never any one in any kind of position of power and definitely no retribution. If any of that did happen it is an isolated incident and prosecuted but thats just my opinion.
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2007, 09:45:54 AM »

I am not sure what this all even means. I am a Marine vet, we had Bible studies, and Christian Theme Kiosk's at the PX/BX, not unusual, I have never once been pressured to go to either from anyone in my chain of command, occasionally a fellow Marine might invite me to attend but never any one in any kind of position of power and definitely no retribution. If any of that did happen it is an isolated incident and prosecuted but thats just my opinion.

I wonder what kind of furor would have been unleashed if someone had tried to set up an Atheist Theme Kiosk at the Exchange? I can just imagine.
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2007, 09:47:39 AM »

Quote
Intolerance Found at Air Force Academy
Military Report Criticizes Religious Climate but Does Not Cite Overt Bias

By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 23, 2005; Page A02

A military study of the religious climate at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs found several examples of religious intolerance, insensitivity and inappropriate proselytizing on the part of Air Force officers and cadets, but a report issued yesterday at the Pentagon concluded that the school is not overtly discriminatory and has made improvements in recent months. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/22/AR2005062200598.html

Christians are forever trying to subvert the principle of separation of church and state.

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« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2007, 10:17:31 AM »

I am not sure what this all even means. I am a Marine vet, we had Bible studies, and Christian Theme Kiosk's at the PX/BX, not unusual, I have never once been pressured to go to either from anyone in my chain of command, occasionally a fellow Marine might invite me to attend but never any one in any kind of position of power and definitely no retribution. If any of that did happen it is an isolated incident and prosecuted but thats just my opinion.

I wonder what kind of furor would have been unleashed if someone had tried to set up an Atheist Theme Kiosk at the Exchange? I can just imagine.

Actually, I am too.

Thief, did anything like that happen? Someone try and start a non-christian orginization?
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FreeinTX
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« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2007, 10:57:17 AM »

Quote
Intolerance Found at Air Force Academy
Military Report Criticizes Religious Climate but Does Not Cite Overt Bias

By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 23, 2005; Page A02

A military study of the religious climate at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs found several examples of religious intolerance, insensitivity and inappropriate proselytizing on the part of Air Force officers and cadets, but a report issued yesterday at the Pentagon concluded that the school is not overtly discriminatory and has made improvements in recent months. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/22/AR2005062200598.html

Christians are forever trying to subvert the principle of separation of church and state.

Only FAKE Christians that PRETEND to be Christian, get into office under the GUISE of being Christian, and then BREAK THE 1ST AMENDMENT and pass laws that give money to the FAKE CHRISTIAN GROUPS, so other FAKE CHRISTIANS can get rich off of CHRISTIANITY.

REAL CHRISTIANS, like Dr. Ron Paul, have absolutely NO INTENTION of passing or signing ANY laws that DIRECLY VIOLATE the 1ST AMENDMENT or prescribe, endorse, or recommend, laws respecting the establishment of ANY religion. 

But let me guess, you think Bush, Cheney, and the lot, are a bunch of intolerant Christians don't you?  You use their actions to justify your own personal FLAWED beliefs about what Christianity is, and what it does and does NOT represent.  Which is why you are so vehimently against religion in government, which is NOT wrong, or illegal, and why you continually twist, "seperation of church and state," into a restriction on religions and ignore the FACT that it is a restriction on GOVERNMENT (the state).

The law does NOT say, "There shall be a seperation of church and state."  The LAW does say;

Quote from: 1ST AMENDEMENT
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, [/color] or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

It's pretty clear, isn't it?

FreeinTX
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« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2007, 11:27:46 AM »

As the spouse of a retired military member, I/we shop on a regular basis in AAFES facilities. Though I've never noted any specific Chrisitian locations in either of the ones where we shop, (they may exist I might have just not noted them) I found it intestesting when first shopping for a Bat Mizvah card for my youngest granddaughter's celebration of her becoming a Jewish adult, in the Reform Jewish tradition,  as well as searching for a greeting card for her for Hanakkah, none existed while there are many in each section related to Christianity and Christmas cards were abundant. In addition, the jewelry department stocked crosses of all sizes and varieties, but not a single Star of David.

Why, in an institution providing goods and services for military and retired military members were these items not stocked?  Is there the assumption that all service members are or should be Christian while the U.S. is often referred as supporting Judeo/Christian values? 

While there remains the old saw, "There are no Atheists in foxholes," it does appear the U.S. military, even on a commercial level with AAFES, is moving forward with the sword and the cross.

FreeinTX, as a person born and raised in Central Texas in a devout Southern Baptist family, the attitude expounded by family members in my youth was to
not attempt to interfere in or attempt to influence the secular government by
promoting law that advanced the tenets of that sect because the reverse could
occur and as a result the government could then interfere with the tenets of the
faith of members of the sect.  In the various changes that have taken place with
the Southern Baptist Convention and the Faith In Message, much has changed
in relation to church and state now.

http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp
 
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2007, 12:26:22 PM »

Actually, I am too.

Thief, did anything like that happen? Someone try and start a non-christian orginization?

I spent 8 years active duty and retired from the reserves. I am convinced that no base commander or reserve facility would sponsor or even tolerate an Atheist display. Which is why their sponsoring Christian anything is intollerable.
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FreeinTX
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« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2007, 12:44:24 PM »

As the spouse of a retired military member, I/we shop on a regular basis in AAFES facilities. Though I've never noted any specific Chrisitian locations in either of the ones where we shop, (they may exist I might have just not noted them) I found it intestesting when first shopping for a Bat Mizvah card for my youngest granddaughter's celebration of her becoming a Jewish adult, in the Reform Jewish tradition,  as well as searching for a greeting card for her for Hanakkah, none existed while there are many in each section related to Christianity and Christmas cards were abundant. In addition, the jewelry department stocked crosses of all sizes and varieties, but not a single Star of David.

Why, in an institution providing goods and services for military and retired military members were these items not stocked?  Is there the assumption that all service members are or should be Christian while the U.S. is often referred as supporting Judeo/Christian values? 

No, that a MASSIVE MAJORITY are.

Were there pentagrams for the pagans?  How about things for Muslims?  How about Jehova's witnesses or Mormons?  Now, I am suprised there were no stars of SOLOMON (LOL you said David, LOL, LOL!!!), but they can't satisfy every customer all the time.  The military is made up of less than 3% Jewish. 

I am, however, sure if you requested an item, they could get it for you.  And I'm sure the military exchange has catalogs that you can rifle through that will have the items you seek.  The military does have Rabbi's and they do have programs and things for most religions, but to expect military stores will carry all the items, of all the "important" religious events would be just simply asking too much.  Don't you think?

While there remains the old saw, "There are no Atheists in foxholes," it does appear the U.S. military, even on a commercial level with AAFES, is moving forward with the sword and the cross.

FreeinTX, as a person born and raised in Central Texas in a devout Southern Baptist family, the attitude expounded by family members in my youth was to
not attempt to interfere in or attempt to influence the secular government by
promoting law that advanced the tenets of that sect because the reverse could
occur and as a result the government could then interfere with the tenets of the
faith of members of the sect.  In the various changes that have taken place with
the Southern Baptist Convention and the Faith In Message, much has changed
in relation to church and state now.

http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp
 

Of course things have changed.

This -SSH-L- we call a President has signed, in DIRECT VIOLATION OF THE 2ND AMENDMENT 501c3 laws and funding into effect.  Now the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is giving money to churches who are "recognized" as churches in their corporate papers. 

This DIRECT VIOLATION OF LAW has twisted the churches and bent them into government sanctioned political pulpits where they must bow to the FEDERAL government, or risk losing their tax-exempt status, or the 501c3 funding they used to build their church with.

If the church likes the current administration it's patriotic and spiritual praise, for the one who runs the blessed country, coming from "real," "GOD-fearing," Christians who love their country.  Enjoy your money.

If the Church does NOT like the current administration, it's SHUT THE H-LL UP OR LOSE YOUR CHURCH!!!!

Now, there is the Clegy Rapid Responce Team (http://www.billygraham.org/glossyIncludes/RapidResponse_VolunteerInfo/RRT_QuickNotes.pdf) that is paid for, by the government, to silence the concerns and protests of law-biding, good, honest, American, Christians in the event of a natual disaster or emergency crisis.

http://www.jbs.org/node/5122

Imagine, preachers being paid by the government to tend to the needs of their flock.  SACRE-F-CK-N-RELIGIOUS!!!!

http://www.ksla.com/Global/story.asp?S=6937987

FreeinTX
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« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2007, 04:38:20 PM »


Thief, did anything like that happen? Someone try and start a non-christian orginization?

Not that I am aware of, I knew a few guys who were atheists but no one tried having meetings or anything. I am not sure if there would be any blow back so to speak, but to be honest not many guys went to church anyways, most had hangovers on Sunday morning.
 
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