Shehrazad
aka 'Untouchables'
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2007, 01:45:47 PM » |
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I didn't see Christian Theocracy as the main title. I also don't see how the reader should conclude that someone who does not know and does not care to speculate as being in fear of something. RF theocracy means governing with bible when the situation requires it; as I said abortion is one of the most evident examples of many christian reclaims today; however the democratic secular rule allow that practice! Does it mean that Democracy is compatible with christianism? no- another case, when the president was unable to act against homosexual mariage!- the bible teach us some punishments like adultery hanging..Deuteronomy 22:22. The law forbid polygamy which is described as a right in bible...is it a democratic position?... Indeed, as I said, democracy in America was founded on Christian principles. However it seems folly to have the Church run government, because that is not the roll of the Church, it is a distraction at best.
Where do you note christian principles in constitution?; there is no christianism smell.. More even - Arnold has recently restrained christian teachings about homosexuality in Calif's schools with the help of AdL -AdL and Aclu eradicated and prepred laws to ban praying and christmas symbols in public schools! Do you consider Clinton or Bush family going out church "christian principles"? "Love of God" is not the same as "Love God". Islam is founded on and stresses submission to God's will. Why else does one always hear "God willing" and "God is great"?
RF when you avoid the illicit it is because you love God and a submision to the God Will. Text--James 4:7: "Submit yourselves therefore to God." submission belongs to the will; and that true submission consists in the will's being entirely subdued and under the control of God's will. It is just that attitude of will, or that voluntary state of the will that God requires. As human being you are completely under submission of God' Will when you choose salvation. "Love of God" is not the same as "Love God". Islam is founded on and stresses submission to God's will. Why else does one always hear "God willing" and "God is great"? Kuran say "If you love God, follow my wills and I will love you", And concerning muslim rules it obligates governor to protect the People of Books :jews and christians! "I am innocent from those who hurt the Protected 'jews and christians" -Muhamed |
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« Last Edit: December 23, 2007, 01:50:15 PM by Shehrazad »
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“The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth.”- Jean de la Bruyère
\\\"Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world\\\".
Nelson Mandela
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2007, 02:31:13 PM » |
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I think RF and most Xians believe you can ask God for salvation AND sin as much as you want, as long as you keep asking for forgiveness and mean it in your heart. There is little reason not to sin in Xianity.
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2007, 06:19:28 AM » |
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I didn't see Christian Theocracy as the main title. I also don't see how the reader should conclude that someone who does not know and does not care to speculate as being in fear of something. RF theocracy means governing with bible when the situation requires it; as I said abortion is one of the most evident examples of many christian reclaims today; however the democratic secular rule allow that practice! Does it mean that Democracy is compatible with christianism? no- another case, when the president was unable to act against homosexual mariage!- the bible teach us some punishments like adultery hanging..Deuteronomy 22:22. The law forbid polygamy which is described as a right in bible...is it a democratic position?... Theocracy means government by organized religion part and parcel. Also compatibility with is not the same as following it lock stock and barrel. Indeed, as I said, democracy in America was founded on Christian principles. However it seems folly to have the Church run government, because that is not the roll of the Church, it is a distraction at best.
Where do you note christian principles in constitution?; there is no christianism smell.. If you can't see Christian principles in the guiding documents of this country then I will conclude that you simply don't want to see it. Do you consider Clinton or Bush family going out church "christian principles"? No "Love of God" is not the same as "Love God". Islam is founded on and stresses submission to God's will. Why else does one always hear "God willing" and "God is great"?
RF when you avoid the illicit it is because you love God and a submision to the God Will. What is the primary tenant of Islam? What are the pillars? What about Christianity? What is the foundation? And concerning muslim rules it obligates governor to protect the People of Books :jews and christians!
"I am innocent from those who hurt the Protected 'jews and christians" -Muhamed Give me a break. You are not credible. Has well over half of the followers of Islam who in surveys fully support attacking Israeli citizens simply forgotten the rules? Or do they recognize the full context of the Quran and the many exceptions including the allowance for use of lies and deception when speaking to an infidel such as myself? |
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Shehrazad
aka 'Untouchables'
Full Member
Karma: +1/-33
Posts: 196
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« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2007, 10:59:26 AM » |
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Theocracy means government by organized religion part and parcel. Also compatibility with is not the same as following it lock stock and barrel.
Do you agree with sparing religion from government policy? If you can't see Christian principles in the guiding documents of this country then I will conclude that you simply don't want to see it. Give me some examples please! What is the primary tenant of Islam? What are the pillars?
What about Christianity? What is the foundation? I think in islam it's well clear in this Quran verse: " There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in God hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. God is Hearer, Knower."2.256 For christianism the word of God is the most important too, at least for protestants- Bible is not a tale or story book, it's the word of God and it should be applicated when it concerns commands (family laws, heritage, war rules, punishments...). If a man choose atheism he's free, but choosing salvation involve following the orders of bible. Otherwise I don't see the difference between you and an atheist like Daedalus; you both you reject Bible's application in civil policy. Give me a break. You are not credible. Has well over half of the followers of Islam who in surveys fully support attacking Israeli citizens simply forgotten the rules? Or do they recognize the full context of the Quran and the many exceptions including the allowance for use of lies and deception when speaking to an infidel such as myself? Yep,they applicate the Quran verse " God does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely God loves the doers of justice."Jews or christians in Iran or Morocco didn' make war nor drive out citizens from home, therefore they should be respected and protected. vice versa. |
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« Last Edit: December 24, 2007, 11:04:33 AM by Shehrazad »
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“The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth.”- Jean de la Bruyère
\\\"Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world\\\".
Nelson Mandela
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2007, 05:16:26 AM » |
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If your trying to show that theocratic Islam is superior to freedom and democracy, you are not very convincing. America has been fighting against the militant approach to institute theocratic Islam now for many years.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2007, 09:13:54 AM » |
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Shehrazad, I afraid you won't find RF to be an honest or well-meaning person to debate. He has no intention of learning, reading or doing anything that doesn't support his personal beliefs.
He brings shame to Xians.
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
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Biker Dude
A TRUE Liberal!
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« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2007, 09:23:31 AM » |
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Shehrazad, I afraid you won't find RF to be an honest or well-meaning person to debate. He has no intention of learning, reading or doing anything that doesn't support his personal beliefs.
He brings shame to Xians.
Nothing personal Barnes, but somehow I don't think you are qualified to speak about whether a person does or does not bring shame on Christians. Seeing as you are at war with faith in general and specifically Christians. |
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 Who will watch the watchers?Now that it is over, what are we going to talk about? |
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2007, 09:58:11 AM » |
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Shehrazad, I afraid you won't find RF to be an honest or well-meaning person to debate. He has no intention of learning, reading or doing anything that doesn't support his personal beliefs.
He brings shame to Xians.
Nothing personal Barnes, but somehow I don't think you are qualified to speak about whether a person does or does not bring shame on Christians. Seeing as you are at war with faith in general and specifically Christians. yes, I said it out of frustration. Sorry, RF, you are a paragon of Xian values and epitomize the best of what it means to be Xian. |
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
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Shehrazad
aka 'Untouchables'
Full Member
Karma: +1/-33
Posts: 196
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« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2007, 10:23:38 AM » |
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RF, I am sorry but you seem unable to answer my questions. Daedalus was a honest man, he's an atheist and he clearly rejects bible autority in all fields. YOu as a man who accepted salvation and the word of God you should follow bible commands but you seem exactly like him; is it hypocrisy? i don't know-
I proved you that democracy may accept and may neutralize the word of God!-is it acceptable for you?
How we can make some compromise between the two concepts?- I said that islamic parties for instance accept the democracy mechanism but they restrain it with some limits: they don't accept parties who call for perversion or total atheism, they call to applicate family laws when the situation requires it...it's so simple.
Is the church able to do alike?
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“The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth.”- Jean de la Bruyère
\\\"Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world\\\".
Nelson Mandela
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2007, 04:11:40 PM » |
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RF, I am sorry but you seem unable to answer my questions. I am I required to answer all your questions? Are you required to answer all of mine? I proved you that democracy may accept and may neutralize the word of God!-is it acceptable for you? Yes, freedom includes the freedom to do the unwise and turn away from God. How we can make some compromise between the two concepts?- I said that islamic parties for instance accept the democracy mechanism but they restrain it with some limits: they don't accept parties who call for perversion or total atheism, they call to applicate family laws when the situation requires it...it's so simple. I'm not sure how there is any real compromise. I do not see any example of Islamic theocracy accepting democracy, nor do I see any utility as it comes across as insincere and deceptive. |
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« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 06:57:38 AM by Reasoned Faith »
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Shehrazad
aka 'Untouchables'
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Posts: 196
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« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2007, 01:14:50 AM » |
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I am I required to answer all your questions? Are you required to answer all of mine?
yes i answered all your questions, did i miss something? I let the reader judge, who is skirting! Yes, freedom includes the freedom to do the unwise and turn away from God.
Ok; I think there is no bible nor quran verse which teach us how choosing governor: we are free to find solution , elections is the right way. but if we take the example of banning the polygamy right which is clearly allowed in bible- is it compatible with democracy or bible teaching? ! Do you mean that human laws are superior to God laws? as a good christian you shouldn't say "yes". Same thing concerning abortion banning: which is maybe the most obvious reclaims of christian activists today. Do you understand that "not-restrained democracy" implies that human laws can be considered as superior to bible orders. I think this is unacceptable for a pious christian. |
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“The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth.”- Jean de la Bruyère
\\\"Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world\\\".
Nelson Mandela
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2007, 08:05:10 AM » |
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but if we take the example of banning the polygamy right which is clearly allowed in bible- is it compatible with democracy or bible teaching? ! It is certainly compatible with democracy. Is is compatible with the Christian doctrine? Let's see. By Jesus' time the social need for polygamy was long past. The social acceptance for polygamy in OT Israel was an artifact of the overall clan based legal system and care for women who had very little ability to thrive on their own. Society has changed and there is no longer any demonstrable value in polygamy. With no Israeli theocratic monarchy and the covenant law fulfilled the moral principles contained in the Bible and explained by Jesus would not retain polygamy and a huge list of additional social laws from the OT. Polygamy would not be a principle promoted by a majority of Christians. Do you mean that human laws are superior to God laws? as a good christian you shouldn't say "yes". No. While Christianity provides a complete set of moral principles from which social laws can be drawn, God's moral principles apply to the individual and are not sufficiently detailed to run a society of mixed faiths. Christian doctrine is intended for the individual not society as a whole. Same thing concerning abortion banning: which is maybe the most obvious reclaims of christian activists today. Yes, Christians should be opposed to the murder of innocent life, done in the name of convenience and privacy. Alas, no human society will always do what is right. Do you understand that "not-restrained democracy" implies that human laws can be considered as superior to bible orders. I think this is unacceptable for a pious christian.
No I do not agree. Human laws will be selected over biblical principles but I do not consider them superior. If God did not want humans to have the ability to make choices, he would not have given us free will. Democracy prevents the entire society from running amuck until the bulk of society is amuck, but in the end, if the whole of society wishes to turn away from God and his principles, God allows for that. If God wanted to prevent this, he would not need the help of well meaning humans to set up societies that remove the qualities God provided. This is inconsistent and contradictory to the nature and purpose of God. Our role is not to try to create a perfect society, because humans cannot do this. Our role individually is to recognize that we have failed to meet God's expectations and need intervention to rediscover our intended relationship with God through a savior. We are here on Earth to recognize the futility of living apart from God. We can clearly see what happens when people turn away from God and his principles it is futile to think we can usher in the return of God by removing the very characteristics that make humans in the image of God. One of these is free will. |
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Shehrazad
aka 'Untouchables'
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« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2007, 11:42:51 AM » |
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It is certainly compatible with democracy. Maybe, but democracy didn't forbid individual's choice if it didn't hurt another person! Is is compatible with the Christian doctrine? Let's see. By Jesus' time the social need for polygamy was long past. The social acceptance for polygamy in OT Israel was an artifact of the overall clan based legal system and care for women who had very little ability to thrive on their own. this is your opinion, it didn't imply that all christians are alike- then your comment can be understood like "the word of God" should be modified with time! I don't know who is the right person to do such tasks. No. While Christianity provides a complete set of moral principles from which social laws can be drawn, God's moral principles apply to the individual and are not sufficiently detailed to run a society of mixed faiths This is the most interesting comment I have ever read- You have to understand that both Bible and Quran didn't run all life orders- we have to accept the word of God when it is necessary and innovate the right laws when there is a lack of commands. The last one is the largest part: this is when "human free choice" is needed. Unlike Bible, Kuran detailed how to run a society of mixed faiths. hope that I answred qsts about islamic rules. thanks again for this comment. |
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« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 11:51:44 AM by Shehrazad »
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“The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth.”- Jean de la Bruyère
\\\"Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world\\\".
Nelson Mandela
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2007, 01:13:40 PM » |
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Is is compatible with the Christian doctrine? Let's see. By Jesus' time the social need for polygamy was long past. The social acceptance for polygamy in OT Israel was an artifact of the overall clan based legal system and care for women who had very little ability to thrive on their own. this is your opinion, it didn't imply that all christians are alike- then your comment can be understood like "the word of God" should be modified with time! I don't know who is the right person to do such tasks. If you don't think I am qualified to answer your question, it is silly to ask me. Should we view you, the Islamist, as the better qualified to know Christian doctrine? No. While Christianity provides a complete set of moral principles from which social laws can be drawn, God's moral principles apply to the individual and are not sufficiently detailed to run a society of mixed faiths This is the most interesting comment I have ever read- The Bible does not tell us how to run a government, it is as simple as that. Unlike Bible, Kuran detailed how to run a society of mixed faiths. hope that I answred qsts about islamic rules. Indeed it does, in ways that are incompatible with the true nature of the God of Abraham. In ways that demonstrate its weakness and in ways that alert many to its failings as the teaching it claims to be. |
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Shehrazad
aka 'Untouchables'
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« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2007, 06:20:01 AM » |
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Well, What's about Bible teachings about punishments, inheritence shares, mariage rules,banning usure, women clothes...should they be neutralized too?
In John 14:15 Jesus says, "If you love Me, keep My commandments.", in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) says He came to "fulfill," or complete, the law and prophets!
Is christianism just "love of jesus"?!!
You didn't answer about christian principles in constitution.
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« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 06:23:27 AM by Shehrazad »
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“The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth.”- Jean de la Bruyère
\\\"Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world\\\".
Nelson Mandela
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