IAP Political Forum
December 03, 2008, 06:21:04 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Default theme has been changed, and everyone reset due to some problems with posts disappearing after submitting.
 
   Home   Blog Forum   Help Search Chat Login Register  
Digg This!
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Bible Fossil Record  (Read 730 times)
daedalus 2.0
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-397
Posts: 1,145



View Profile
« on: December 28, 2007, 10:54:34 AM »

The oldest complete manuscript of the Bible was written around the 4th century and is known as the Sinaiticus Bible, the Vaticanus is next oldest.  Where did they get the material to write these Bibles you ask?

From the earlier papyrus and codexs. The early scraps from which copies of the original gospels were believed to have been made.  There are no original manuscripts of the Bible anywhere.

The earliest piece of the Bible is p52, whose date is around 125-150, which is also around the time "John" was supposed to have written it.

Quote
The Rylands Library Papyrus P52, also known as the St John's fragment, is a papyrus fragment measuring only 3.5 by 2.5 inches (9 by 6.4 cm) at its widest, conserved at the John Rylands Library, Manchester, UK. The front (recto) contains lines from the Gospel of John 18:31-33, in Greek, and the back (verso) contains lines from verses 37-38.

Although Rylands P52 is generally accepted as the earliest extant record of a canonical New Testament text[1], the dating of the papyrus is by no means the subject of consensus among critical scholars. The style of the script is strongly Hadrianic, which would suggest a date somewhere between 125 and 160 CE.

Here is a picture of it:



It says:

". . . The Jews . . . unto . . . not . . . any man . . . That the saying . . . he spake, signifying . . . die . . . entered . . .hall . . . and said . . . Jews?"

The next oldest piece is some 50 years later and was supposed to have been written earlier.  How do they know? They don't for sure, but they base it on character dating - none of the NT fragments have been radiometric dated.

For example, here is the next oldest:


p64

Quote
The "Magdalen" papyrus was purchased in Luxor, Egypt in 1901 by Reverend Charles Bousfield Huleatt (1863-1908), who identified the Greek fragments as portions of the Gospel of Matthew (Chapter 26:23 and 31) and presented them to Magdalen College, Oxford, where they are cataloged as P. Magdalen Greek 17 (Gregory-Aland P64) and whence they have their name. When the fragments were finally published by Colin H. Roberts in 1953, illustrated with a photograph, the hand was characterized as "an early predecessor of the so-called 'Biblical Uncial'" which began to emerge towards the end of the 2nd century. The uncial style is epitomised by the later biblical Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus. Comparative paleographical analysis has remained the methodological key for dating the manuscript: the consensus is, ca AD 200.


There are a few more scraps such as these:
http://www.kchanson.com/papyri.html#NTP
but they mostly date from the 3rd century on.


This is the fossil record which supposedly supports the Bible. One has to wonder how they got a whole book out of such tiny fragments.  But then, human imagination is quite extraordinary.





edit:

BTW, as everyone knows, there were many versions of Xianity going around at the time (it being a very popular mystery cult) and had many people writing many different things.  There are gospels of each of the 12 apostles (but only four were accepted in a final vote).

There were also many other writings that many of the early church fathers thought should be in the Canon (the official Bible) but some others that they should keep as true but not read in church because of the content (e.g., the Revelation of Peter).

To read what the church father wrote is fascinating. They explain why they chose some and not others or why they thought some of the ones that were chosen shouldn't be in.


For example, one of the early church fathers Eusebius:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/canonlists.html#2

Quote
The Canon Of Eusebius Of Caesarea (A.D. 265 - 340)

From Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, III. xxv. 1-7.

At this point it seems appropriate to summarize the writings of the New Testament which have already been mentioned. In the first place must be put the holy quaternion of the Gospels, which are followed by the book of the Acts of the Apostles. (1) After this must be reckoned the Epistles of Paul; next in order the extant former Epistle of John, and likewise the Epistle of Peter must be recognized. After these must be put, if it really seems right, the Apocalypse of John, concerning which we shall give the different opinions at the proper time. (3) These, then, [are to be placed] among the recognized books. Of the disputed books, which are nevertheless familiar to the majority, there are extant the Epistle of James, as it is called; and that of Jude; and the second Epistle of Peter; and those that are called the Second and Third of John, whether they belong to the evangelist or to another person of the same name.

(4) Among the spurious books must be reckoned also the Acts of Paul, and the Shepherd, as it is called, and the Apocalypse of Peter; and, in addition to these, the extant Epistle of Barnabas, and the Teachings of the Apostles, as it is called. And, in addition, as I said, the Apocalypse of John, if it seem right. (This last, as I said, is rejected by some, but others count it among the recognized books.) (5) And among these some have counted also the Gospel of the Hebrews, with which those of the Hebrews who have accepted Christ take a special pleasure.

(6) Now all these would be among the disputed books; but nevertheless we have felt compelled to make this catalogue of them, distinguishing between those writings which, according to the tradition of the Church, are true and genuine and recognized, from the others which differ from them in that they are not canonical [lit., entestamented], but disputed, yet nevertheless are known to most churchmen. [And this we have done] in order that we might be able to know both these same writings and also those which the heretics put forward under the name of the apostles; including, for instance, such books as the Gospels of Peter, of Thomas, of Matthias, or even of some others besides these, and the Acts of Andrew and John and the other apostles. To none of these has any who belonged to the succession of ecclesiastical writers ever thought it right to refer in his writings. (7) Moreover, the character of the style also is far removed from apostolic usage, and the thought and purport of their contents are completely out of harmony with true orthodoxy and clearly show themselves that they are the forgeries of heretics. For this reason they ought not even to be reckoned among the spurious books, but are to be cast aside as altogether absurd and impious.


He points out also that he knows that some of the works attributed to Paul are actually written by someone else.

These are things you would never learn in church, and most people wouldn't ask, or even know to ask.

For example, who ever asked "Who wrote the Gospel according to Matthew"? Everyone just assumes its Matthew!  But its not.

Who wrote the Gospel According to James (Jesus' brother)?  James?  Maybe! But who knows?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 11:36:35 AM by daedalus 2.0 » Logged

\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
Opmod
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +58/-64
Posts: 730



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2007, 11:34:57 AM »

Who said the got the whole book from those scrape which were no doubt not scrapes nearly 2k years ago.
Logged

\\\"Something witty\\\" Some self impotant blowhard
daedalus 2.0
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-397
Posts: 1,145



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2007, 11:39:59 AM »

Who said the got the whole book from those scrape which were no doubt not scrapes nearly 2k years ago.

If you have evidence to the contrary, produce it.  i assume there were better, more complete copies.

But of what?

The copies you read today are all copies of copies of copies of..., all written after the 2nd century.  We can safely assume they copied something but what?  What did they say and which ones did they accept or reject, and why?

That is all lost forever.
Logged

\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
Opmod
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +58/-64
Posts: 730



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2007, 11:45:07 AM »

You are not prepared to accept the answer to that question but I will give it anyway and at one time I would have told someone that the answer was a copout. Its called a faith for a reason.
Logged

\\\"Something witty\\\" Some self impotant blowhard
daedalus 2.0
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-397
Posts: 1,145



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2007, 12:01:21 PM »

You are not prepared to accept the answer to that question but I will give it anyway and at one time I would have told someone that the answer was a copout. Its called a faith for a reason.

Hmmm, and that reason it is called faith is because its not reasonable.  I appreciate your honesty, but in terms of being rigorous or truth-seeking, I'm afraid your answer leaves much to be desired.

In other words, you don't know either but you don't care 'cause it feels good to believe something.
Logged

\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
Opmod
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +58/-64
Posts: 730



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2007, 12:11:23 PM »

Call it whatever makes you feel good. I couldn't care less.

Is there something WRONG with believing in something that makes you feel good? That following its tenents leads you to live a moral, kindly life?

You know why I used to be what I would call a militant atheist? Becuase all those chrsitians are always so smug in thier belief. So happy and comfortable. What the hell right had they to be happy when I was pleasing every whim on the flesh and mind I came across and was miserable alot of times?

Not sayoing thats the case with yoou, I have no clue about you. I only know that was PART of my problem. The rest was guilt and fear of losing my sinful ways. Cuz lets face it, sinning is fun, its the aftermath that is a bitch to live with.
Logged

\\\"Something witty\\\" Some self impotant blowhard
daedalus 2.0
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-397
Posts: 1,145



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2007, 12:21:42 PM »

Call it whatever makes you feel good. I couldn't care less.

Is there something WRONG with believing in something that makes you feel good? That following its tenents leads you to live a moral, kindly life?

You know why I used to be what I would call a militant atheist? Becuase all those chrsitians are always so smug in thier belief. So happy and comfortable. What the hell right had they to be happy when I was pleasing every whim on the flesh and mind I came across and was miserable alot of times?

Not sayoing thats the case with yoou, I have no clue about you. I only know that was PART of my problem. The rest was guilt and fear of losing my sinful ways. Cuz lets face it, sinning is fun, its the aftermath that is a bitch to live with.

I don't know if I agree. Sinning is a religious term and only if you feel it is something important do you regret it.  I don't regret one day that I have not worshipped god, or lusted after a woman. In fact, I regret the days I did consider masturbation a sin, or thought God existed and would punish me for this or that - for being human.. and a wretch (as Xianity teaches).

Anyhow, this thread is not so much about this.  It is about somehting I personallt believe to be important: Truth.

These are the facts of the Bible. How you take it is up to you. You can still believe - in fact, the more I show how little reason you have to believe - the more your Faith has to grow.

I'm doing you a favor by increasing your Faith muscles.  i thought this is a good thing?  After all, when good is your belief if you have 100% reason to believe and 0% Faith?


So, what I am presenting is the same exact thing you would learn in seminary school. I am not being militantly athiest about this. Just because the facts are scary doesn't make them evil.  Many people know about these facts and still believe. Perhaps even believe more strongly.

However, I see few churches teaching this.  I don't see the corporate stores (the churches) giving the consumer all the information about their product.

It would be un-American of me to keep silent.
Logged

\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
Opmod
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +58/-64
Posts: 730



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2007, 12:35:58 PM »

The facts as you state them are not in the least scary and militant atheism is a reference to trying to tear down everyone elses beliefs becuase you do not believe in them or do not like them. Just as I would call a hall fire and brimestone bible thumper a ,militant christian. He would be the guy who WOULD say "Thats ok Daed, don't beleive, but enjoy the fire of hell"
Logged

\\\"Something witty\\\" Some self impotant blowhard
daedalus 2.0
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-397
Posts: 1,145



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2007, 12:46:30 PM »

Well, I know I'm considered a militant atheist on this forum but I also notice I'm the only one talking about the Bible in historical and truthful ways.  you can find hundreds of Xian sites that will never mention these things.

RF, JIMP or other Xians haven't started one thread on the history of the church, the Bible or the history of the region.

I am honestly interested in it, and I don't hide my bias.  I have come across Xian sites that mention some of these things but then lie (I say lie, because they will cite one "expert who says p64 is dated at 70 CE, when the vast majority of conservative and liberal scholars date it at 200 - but the Xian site won't even mention this).

Is that militant athiesm on my part?  To confirm many of the facts that Conservative Xian Scholars believe?
Logged

\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
daedalus 2.0
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-397
Posts: 1,145



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2007, 12:55:13 PM »

Why are Xians so opposed to researching their religious history?  What are they afraid of?
Logged

\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
Opmod
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +58/-64
Posts: 730



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2007, 07:20:38 AM »

Those week in faith are proably afraid of someone finding something that undermines a portion of thier beliefs...I say go ahead.
Logged

\\\"Something witty\\\" Some self impotant blowhard
daedalus 2.0
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-397
Posts: 1,145



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2007, 08:25:42 AM »

Those week in faith are proably afraid of someone finding something that undermines a portion of thier beliefs...I say go ahead.

Thank you.  I don't hide my atheism, but I also don't hide my interest in the subject, or that I try to be honest and rigorous.

As I said, I am presenting nothing different than what they offer in Seminary Universities.
Logged

\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
daedalus 2.0
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-397
Posts: 1,145



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2008, 06:09:14 PM »

Another tale in the story of how the Bible was constructed and editted:

Quote
Dusty old scraps..which would change your Bible forever..If anybody cared

Oooops.. which Matthew is Matthew??


Panteneus, the famous early second century teacher of the first Cathetical collegium in Alexandria, found it necessary to follow the silk road to India in order to find a original copy of the original Gospel according to Matthew.
Panteneus were the teacher of Clement of Alexandria the churchfather and among the greater inspirators of both the Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox traditions. The time of his travel to India is unclear, but the timeline stretches from 120 at earliest and about 145CE at latest, since he is heard of as having taught at the Cathetical collegium to his last days.


After registering the fact about his voyage, I concluded from the sources I had at hand that - Nothing is heard about a: whether his quest were a success, though it appears to me that the Oriental thought he did. b: whether or not the gospel version in question differs from what the Western church had at that time, or whether indeed it differs from the one version we have and read today. Having read about the adventures of Panteneus to the East to secure a manuscript of an original gospel, I was reminded of James Bruce`s quest to Egypt in order to secure a copy of the famous Secret Book of Enoch - instead of that, by chance, he discovered an ancient codex book containing a cryptic and not before heard about collection of texts, The Books of Ieou - or the books of the saviour, written by an obscure Gnostic sect. Recounting the "exact structure of the treasuries of light" and the secret baptism which Jesus gave his disciples when he returned after his ascent into heaven. As I have already mentioned there is little to be had of information about this curious campaign in the history of the Church, considering how much emphasis some scholars and theologians have had on the primacy of the Gospel according to Matthew (in the sense of it being first) - it stands out as a kind of Quest for the Holy Grail. Much the pity we hear nothing more about it from the encyclopedias, dictionaries, from books on "Biblical Archeology" and so forth.


Browsing around today at the Schoeyen Collection of the Norwegian Institute of Palaeography and Historical Philology... I happened upon this description for a Coptic manuscript fragment in the collection :


BIBLE: MATTHEW

MS in Mesokemic (Middle Egyptian or Oxyrhynchite dialect) on papyrus, Oxyrhynchus region, Egypt, 1st half of 4th c., 39 ff. (- ca. 6 ff.), 23x20 cm, single column, (18x14-16 cm), 25-28 lines in a fine regular Coptic uncial.

Context: MSS 2648, 2649, 2651 and 14 ff. of Isaiah (in Mesokemic, ca. 300) were found tipped in among the leaves of the present codex, which originally had ca. 45 ff. Probably from the same hoard as the Chester Beatty papyri, now in Dublin: Chester Beatty Library.

Provenance: 1. Monastery in the Oxyrhynchus region, Egypt (4th c. - ca. 1930); 2. Antiquity dealer, Alexandria (ca. 1930); 3. Private collector, Zürich.

Commentary: The text opens at ch. 5:38 and goes more or less continuously to the end.

The present codex is the earliest Matthew in any Coptic dialect. The 11 chapters, 6-9, 13-17, 22 and 28, and a great number of verses elsewhere, are in addition the earliest witnesses to these parts of the Bible. The text is unique, not following any Coptic nor Greek manuscripts known of Matthew.
[/b]
Prof. Dr. Hans-Martin Schenke in his editio princeps of the text, has named the manuscript Codex Schøyen, with the siglum Mae 2. (siglum Mae 1 being the Scheide Codex of 5th c.) His conclusions are that the text is not representing a free text transmission in relation to all the other extant Greek and Coptic manuscripts of Matthew, but that it is a correct translation of an entirely different Gospel of Matthew. There is only one other Gospel of Matthew known, the lost Hebrew Gospel of the Jewish Christians mentioned by the church fathers. This would have been the Hebrew exemplar of the Greek translation the present manuscript is based upon. Actually the famous statement by Papias that the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew was translated into Greek several times (Eusebius, hist. eccl. III, 39, 16), now come in a new light. Due to a series of textual differences between Codex Schøyen and the Canonical Gospel, it appears that both Gospels derive from different versions of the Hebrew Matthew. The consequence is that the relationship among the Synoptic Gospels has to be entirely re-evaluated, causing far-reaching and dramatic consequences for New Testament research.


Published: Hans-Martin Schenke in the series Manuscripts in The Schøyen Collection, ed. Jens Braarvig; Coptic Papyri, vol. I. Oslo 2001


The example of Pantaneus, and to a certain extent also Papias, both early 2nd century Churchfathers - gives us occasion to wonder whether or not originally there existed one authentic Gospel according to Matthew.. and the one we`ve got today, no matter how much we like and love it, is a later much edited and doctored recension.. and that we cannot (still) know where it is silenced, and where it is silent itself. Dr. Hans-Martin Schenke is right in observing that this may cause far-reaching and dramatic consequences for New Testament research. The majority of biblical scholars agree on the "primacy" of the Gospel according to Matthew per se , and this means that it is the priority of most theologians to look first at Matthew and then compare between the others. Apparently, this is now a bit more complicated - which Matthew is Matthew? Which Book really has primacy?
While Eusebius reports there are several original translations of the original Hebrew Gospel according to Matthew - more or less observing the industry and dynamis of the first Christian communities scribes, he never gives us an inch on how it is determined that the Gospel according to Matthew on the cutting table of the Canonical Synod at Nicaea qualifies as authentic or true, or even originating from one of several Greek versions (not only translations, as we now have found) of the original Hebrew Gospel. What he gives us is assurance that the Gospel of Matthew, or rather a Gospel of Matthew - where among the gospels chosen as authentic and canonical by the Roman Church.
http://weblog.bergersen.net/terje/archives/000790.html



So, we have an early church father having to travel to India to see if he can track down the original Matthew (Matthew is considered the first book written of the four apostles, whereas, Paul (who never met Jesus) wrote about 20 years after Jesus).

This has a guy thinking he can track the original in 120 CE. The earliest copy we have is in the 4th Century and is DIFFERENT from the Matthew we know today (which was found later).

The mystery continues.
Logged

\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
Reasoned Faith
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +146/-165
Posts: 893


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2008, 09:05:12 AM »


So, we have an early church father having to travel to India to see if he can track down the original Matthew (Matthew is considered the first book written of the four apostles, whereas, Paul (who never met Jesus) wrote about 20 years after Jesus).

This has a guy thinking he can track the original in 120 CE. The earliest copy we have is in the 4th Century and is DIFFERENT from the Matthew we know today (which was found later).

The mystery continues.

Let's look closer at the various scraps and manuscripts of Matthew to see if these differences are real and significant as you imply.

We have the Magdalen Papyrus from before 66 AD and the Barcelona Papyrus considered to be identical copies from the same source.  These have fragments of Matthew 26:7-8, 10, 14-15, 22-23 and 31 and Matthew 3:9, 15; Matthew 5:20-22, 25-28 respectively. Next is Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 2 containing Matthew 1:1-9, 12, 14-20 from about 100 AD.  Then we have Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 2683 containing Matthew 23:30-39 from 150 AD.  These fragments do not deviate from Chester Beatty Papyri from about 200 AD the oldest near complete NT containing nearly all of Matthew.  This is much older than the Vatican Codex of 325 AD you mention and my understanding is that again there is no substantial difference in content or context.  Do you disagree?


Logged
daedalus 2.0
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-397
Posts: 1,145



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2008, 10:13:12 AM »

The Magdalen Papyrus is from 200 CE.
The earliest from the Papyrus Oxyrhynchus collection (which includes OT & NT and many secular and mythological writings, music, "shopping lists", personal letters, etc.  Almost 40% of all source material for the NT comes from this collection.) is about 150 and is John, NOT Matthew.

If we can't agree on basic facts, I don't hold much hope for agreeing to your interpretations.

Perhaps you'd like to link your sources, for once?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 11:46:27 AM by daedalus 2.0 » Logged

\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.4 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC
Joomla Bridge by JoomlaHacks.com
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.115 seconds with 26 queries.