Abraxas
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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2007, 06:48:33 PM » |
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If Syria had nuclear weapons it's the world's right to know and if North Korea sold them those weapons it is the world's right to know. These are issues that affect the safety of EVERY country on the planet and if Israel hides behind the, "we do not reveal sources of information" then we have NO reason to trust them. This, I disagree with - not in priniciple, but in practice. Yes, in a perfect situation, the world does have a right to know. But the stakes are far higher for Israel than, say, Belgium, or Hondorus. If Syria has those weapons (something I am not convinced of), then the nation with the most to lose is Israel. I think they are just being prudent by safeguarding their sources, methods, and information. I would LIKE to know what Israel knows, but I don't think they have the duty to tell us if it risks their information gathering capabilities. In normal circumstances, maybe, but this region is prone to conflict and for Israel to be able to do this without sufficiently proving it had accurate information is irresponcible. I'm sure it was a military target of some kind, but they haven't assured ANYONE that it was nuclear in nature. Furthermore, if North Korea IS exporting nuclear material the US certaintly has a right to know considering this action would surely violate the terms of the agreement we signed recently with them. At some point, especially when nuclear weapons are the issue, you have to forgo this and PROVE you attacked another country for a REASON.
Otherwise, Israel will think they can do this OFTEN. And that is BAD.
I wonder if perhaps at a high level this information was shared with other nations? I mean, I have heard very little from Europe condemning the attack and they are usually first to voice their displeasure. Maybe they have protested, but I haven't heard it. If they are keeping quiet, it may be a sign that their intelligence services have been convinced that Israel acted responisbly. Again, I'm not saying this is the case, just throwing it out there. Who knows, maybe it was a French, British, or German intelligence find........ Then why no joint statement from the intelegence department? Like you said, no one has condemned these actions... but no one has supported them either. I would think the elimination of a nuclear threat from Syria would make BIG news... but for some reason it hasn't? Why? I'm only worried by how little noise this is making and why no one is asking more questions. There are 2 possibilities: 1) Syria DID buy nuclear material from North Korea and was planning to use a nuclear based weapon on somebody - most likely Israel. 2) Israel launched an attack on Syria without provocation or reason... or their intelegence is SEVERELY flawed. Either way, this should be all over the news... but it's not. Why? |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2007, 07:29:21 PM » |
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If Syria had nuclear weapons it's the world's right to know and if North Korea sold them those weapons it is the world's right to know. These are issues that affect the safety of EVERY country on the planet and if Israel hides behind the, "we do not reveal sources of information" then we have NO reason to trust them. This, I disagree with - not in priniciple, but in practice. Yes, in a perfect situation, the world does have a right to know. But the stakes are far higher for Israel than, say, Belgium, or Hondorus. If Syria has those weapons (something I am not convinced of), then the nation with the most to lose is Israel. I think they are just being prudent by safeguarding their sources, methods, and information. I would LIKE to know what Israel knows, but I don't think they have the duty to tell us if it risks their information gathering capabilities. In normal circumstances, maybe, but this region is prone to conflict and for Israel to be able to do this without sufficiently proving it had accurate information is irresponcible. I'm sure it was a military target of some kind, but they haven't assured ANYONE that it was nuclear in nature. Furthermore, if North Korea IS exporting nuclear material the US certaintly has a right to know considering this action would surely violate the terms of the agreement we signed recently with them. At some point, especially when nuclear weapons are the issue, you have to forgo this and PROVE you attacked another country for a REASON.
Otherwise, Israel will think they can do this OFTEN. And that is BAD.
I wonder if perhaps at a high level this information was shared with other nations? I mean, I have heard very little from Europe condemning the attack and they are usually first to voice their displeasure. Maybe they have protested, but I haven't heard it. If they are keeping quiet, it may be a sign that their intelligence services have been convinced that Israel acted responisbly. Again, I'm not saying this is the case, just throwing it out there. Who knows, maybe it was a French, British, or German intelligence find........ Then why no joint statement from the intelegence department? Like you said, no one has condemned these actions... but no one has supported them either. I would think the elimination of a nuclear threat from Syria would make BIG news... but for some reason it hasn't? Why? I'm only worried by how little noise this is making and why no one is asking more questions. There are 2 possibilities: 1) Syria DID buy nuclear material from North Korea and was planning to use a nuclear based weapon on somebody - most likely Israel. 2) Israel launched an attack on Syria without provocation or reason... or their intelegence is SEVERELY flawed. Either way, this should be all over the news... but it's not. Why? Number two. Israel has done a low level recon followed by eight F/A-18 bombing an area including a "Bunker Buster", and overseen by high level electronic jamming and countermeasures aircraft. Why is no one saying anything? Syria is too embarrassed that their shiny new Russian Kit was flumoxed, and Israel never advertises. Don't ask me for a source, I can't give. Sorry. . |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
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neorealist
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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2007, 08:31:23 PM » |
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So you don't think Israel needs to justify it's attack? Photo reconisence or sensor data is not revealing any methods Syria doesn't already know about.
It's what legitimate governments do. They PROVE the enemy had a nuclear weapon.
Like the proof that Colin Powell held up at the UN?...the WMD pics? What does a picture prove today? Nothing, I consumer photo shop could portray a lie let alone gov't tech. |
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2007, 08:43:53 PM » |
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. Oh, the story or allusions may hit the news eventually. After Israel does whatever. No skin off my bones. Here is a 'sniff' already: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/18/world/asia/18korea.html?ref=world |
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« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 06:26:52 AM by Terry Mathis »
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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14-years-old-jane
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« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2007, 03:39:04 AM » |
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Can you elaborate?
1. Israel and Syria are in official war since 67', same goes for few other Arab states including Lebanon 2. Legitimate government would never create panic in public,,, this is what many "freethinkers" dislike but it plays best countrie's interest,,, when enemy state has nuclear weapons or may have ones,,, noone would speak about that but blow off it 3. US government which you probably believe is legitimate provided footage of Iraqi advanced WDMs when those gassed Iraqi Kurds with technology of WWII few years back 4. Israeli government did show facts on what Iran does in nuclear area to UN,,, what done so far for all these years? Sanctions not allowing to sell Iran nuclear technology? Like Russians who just officially sold them nuclear fuel or Pakistanis and Chinese who freely sell them containers for Uranium? WTF are you on about? Sorry to remind that but everyone in Europe know what Hitler what do to the Jews prior war,,, it was clearly seen since he got into throne,,,, everyone seen what he done in the beginning of the war but did someone helped Jews rather themself did? Nopes,,, very few cases of ppl who risked their lives,,, not countries but few ppl Jews should care for them self as it looks now Israel cannot rely on US,,, as many Americans already blame Israel for it's politics on ME when it has nothing to do with Israel or war in Iraq which again done more worst to Israel rather good,,, been there twice so what should legitimate government do? ,,, complain so it won't help or attack target in country it is in war with for 40 years |
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Abraxas
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« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2007, 08:48:46 AM » |
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So you don't think Israel needs to justify it's attack? Photo reconisence or sensor data is not revealing any methods Syria doesn't already know about.
It's what legitimate governments do. They PROVE the enemy had a nuclear weapon.
Like the proof that Colin Powell held up at the UN?...the WMD pics? What does a picture prove today? Nothing, I consumer photo shop could portray a lie let alone gov't tech. There was criticizm of Collin Powel and those pictures since the beginning, but no one paid attention. There was evidence AGAINST the WMD argument... but they were largely ignored. Israel is responcible for what it does and it only begs to reason that they show SOMETHING to prove that they did not randomly attack a target in Syria. They do not deserve a free pass on this. 1. Israel and Syria are in official war since 67', same goes for few other Arab states including Lebanon I knew that. 2. Legitimate government would never create panic in public,,, this is what many "freethinkers" dislike but it plays best countrie's interest,,, when enemy state has nuclear weapons or may have ones,,, noone would speak about that but blow off it I knew this too. The US used that tactic to GREAT effect before we invaded Iraq. 3. US government which you probably believe is legitimate provided footage of Iraqi advanced WDMs when those gassed Iraqi Kurds with technology of WWII few years back Then you missed my point. I said "legitimate" government... not "responcible" government. I am well aware that the US government has been irresponcible... to say the least. Legitimacy is defined by other countries. The world respects the US as an actual country... Israel sees itself the same way and as a result they are responcible for their actions. This icludes the bombing of targets in Syria. 4. Israeli government did show facts on what Iran does in nuclear area to UN,,, what done so far for all these years? Sanctions not allowing to sell Iran nuclear technology? Like Russians who just officially sold them nuclear fuel or Pakistanis and Chinese who freely sell them containers for Uranium? We're not talking about Iran. We're talking about what Israel did to Syria. Until Israel can prive that they struck a target of significance, like a nuclear missile delivery system, then they should be held accountable. All I want is proof that they didn't go bombing all willy nilly. I didn't know this was such a ridiculous request. We're about to bomb Iran because they have nuclear weapons. The IAEA says they don't. Before we take ANY action in Iran I want to make sure they DON'T have weapons. Is that so much to ask? I'm simply holding governments responcible for their actions. Sorry to remind that but everyone in Europe know what Hitler what do to the Jews prior war,,, it was clearly seen since he got into throne,,,, everyone seen what he done in the beginning of the war but did someone helped Jews rather themself did? Nopes,,, very few cases of ppl who risked their lives,,, not countries but few ppl I'm sorry... but why does this matter? What Hitler did was wrong... and there were people that did not hold Germany accountable (despite the warning signs) and he slaughterd 6 million Jews completely unopposed. I see warning signs of marked aggression by Israel... and no one is holding them accountable for it. I'm not saying they're going to go slaughter 6 million Arabs, but surely you see my point. Israel should explain WHY it struck targets in Syria. That's all I want. Jews should care for them self as it looks now Israel cannot rely on US,,, as many Americans already blame Israel for it's politics on ME when it has nothing to do with Israel or war in Iraq which again done more worst to Israel rather good,,, been there twice I'm sorry... can you say that again. I think your point may have been lost in translation  . |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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14-years-old-jane
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« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2007, 09:09:57 AM » |
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my last point was that only country Israel could rely on was US,,, now the unsuccessful campaign of US army in Iraq used by your nationalists as finger point towards Israel while Iraq has nothing to do with Israel but just American dream of your government,,, same as first time you attacked it in 90'...
Israel should rely on itself and do not publicly explain anything it does,,,, this includes you and your neigbour Jack... on high level Israel does any explanation it asked to from allies and neutral countries,,,
Any proper army attacks foreign targets around the world without being asked to explain,,, like Iranian army attacked US army HQ in Lebanon some time ago,,, someone asked for explanation? No,,, you sue them decade afterwards,,,
Israel should explain it's actions only and only to Turkey if it passed though it air space as Turkey is neutral to Israel,,, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia or Iraq can go f them self until they sign a peace treaty,,,
the most important is legitimate means responsible, without being responsible government cannot be legitimate,,, Syria is a great example of that,,,
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CedarPride
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« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2007, 09:36:49 AM » |
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Actually I think it's wrong to separate the Israeli action from the US on this one. Three days before the operation, we didn't have a good reception on TV, throughout Lebanon. At first we thought it was our cable provider because the picture was so bad for all satellite tvs channels, and then in some houses, they didn't receive any picture at all. Then we learned it was the case in all of Lebanon. It is believed that it was a US carrier in the Mediterranean that was sending signals to deactivate the radars (sorry I don't know the English term for that), and as a result the satellite transmission was lost too. So the operation was planned a few day earlier, with the knowledge and participation of the US. Now there are two versions that were not mentioned in the western media, although they are not confirmed either. The two versions are about Israel and the Americans testing the new Russian radars received by Syria. 1) The first version says that the radars were totally deactivated as Israeli warplanes were able to shoot a target and leave. 2) The second version says that the radars were still able to detect the planes, and the pilots were surprized by that so they just fled after firing where they shouldn't have. Now how true is that? No one knows anything. The only thing I can confirm is that the operation started three days prior to the actual incident, as noticed by the scrambling of all satellite waves. Sorry if my terms are not so technical  Israel should rely on itself and do not publicly explain anything it does,,,, this includes you and your neigbour Jack... on high level Israel does any explanation it asked to from allies and neutral countries,,, Do you honeslty think Israel will attack Syria without coordinating with the US first and protecting its back and risk starting a full-scale war alone, especially with what is going on with Iran and the situation in Iraq? Any proper army attacks foreign targets around the world without being asked to explain,,, like Iranian army attacked US army HQ in Lebanon some time ago,,, someone asked for explanation? No,,, you sue them decade afterwards,,, How do the two even compare?  Israel should explain it's actions only and only to Turkey if it passed though it air space as Turkey is neutral to Israel,,, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia or Iraq can go f them self until they sign a peace treaty,,, You mean you can start a war anytime? Of course you can, you're Israel. Who's going to be outraged? It is not like it was Syria that crossed the borders to Israel. Now that would be outrageous, and would mean that Israel is the victim of terrorist Syria. the most important is legitimate means responsible, without being responsible government cannot be legitimate,,, Syria is a great example of that,,,
Only Syria? |
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Middle East forum 101 I committed the cardinal sin in the ME region of actually trying to post something relevant to the thread topic. |
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2007, 09:52:32 AM » |
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Abraxas mate, Israel never telegraphs it's punches. That leaves the rest of us looking at the end result, maybe.
Based on many sources, I would not be surprised if Israel invaded Syria in the next 30 days, given the fact they have 'probed' their opponents and found them very open and incapable.
That is just my opinion and I may be wrong. They have a motive (Gaza and West Bank trouble), they need more than just the Golan for expansion also.
We wait.
Warm regards
Terry
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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14-years-old-jane
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« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2007, 09:55:31 AM » |
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Do you honeslty think Israel will attack Syria without coordinating with the US first and protecting its back and risk starting a full-scale war alone, especially with what is going on with Iran and the situation in Iraq? I don't honestly believe to anything but i highlighted publicly in case someone will misunderstand,,, next time i will increase font size How do the two even compare? I don't compare i show much uglier example You mean you can start a war anytime? Of course you can, you're Israel. Who's going to be outraged? It is not like it was Syria that crossed the borders to Israel. Now that would be outrageous, and would mean that Israel is the victim of terrorist Syria. Yep, quite that,,, just without your Arab whine that Israel can that and you cannot,,, Lebanese official army named Hezballah crossed international border and attacked Israeli soldiers within Israel soil last summer,,, who end up as victim? Lebanon,,, who ended up as aggressor? Israel... So it doesn't matter whether Israel responds like you or not, Israel will remain aggressor simple because there are too many Arabs, Muslims and oil ,,, otherwise you would be already somewhere where African nations are,,, Not just few of you,,, all of you,,, Only Syria?
I can add Lebanon if you want,,, If you meant Israeli government, i'm sure what it's done previous summer and this time in Syria was totally right,,, Any Lebanese should understand the price they due to pay for Hezballah's actions again nearby country, as Syrian government and army should understand they worth nothing,,, |
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Each time homosexuals make sex, 1-2 babies die and 1-2 constipations are solved ...
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2007, 10:06:20 AM » |
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Cedar,
That TV interference MAY have been caused by jamming from somewhere. The Israeli's have that capability. I think you blame the U.S. without any proof. I believe that the U.S. did nothing. Up to you to do that, since Israel can too.
Kind regards
Terry
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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Terry Mathis
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Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
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« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2007, 10:19:13 AM » |
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. Cedar, We are talking about Syria and Israel. I'm sorry but you are off topic. If you want to start a thread regarding Lebanon I will happily participate because, as you know, I do have family there.  Warmest regards Terry |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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CedarPride
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« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2007, 10:39:26 AM » |
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Cedar,
That TV interference MAY have been caused by jamming from somewhere. The Israeli's have that capability. I think you blame the U.S. without any proof. I believe that the U.S. did nothing. Up to you to do that, since Israel can too.
Kind regards
Terry
Terry, it is impossible that an action like this is taken without the prior knowledge and approval of the US. Suppose Syria decides to retliate, Iran decides to enter the battle, Hizbullah opens fire on Israel's northern borders. Do you think the US will be taken aback because they had absolutely no knowledge of the operation? Do you think Israel will do that to its only ally with the US in a mess in Iraq? Besides Israel will need back up from the US in case of retaliation. They won't start a war alone. Israel would never take such action without a contingency plan in case of retaliation, prepared with the US. Never. They both knew and both participated in the operation |
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« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 10:44:25 AM by CedarPride »
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Middle East forum 101 I committed the cardinal sin in the ME region of actually trying to post something relevant to the thread topic. |
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CedarPride
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« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2007, 10:43:11 AM » |
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. Cedar, We are talking about Syria and Israel. I'm sorry but you are off topic. If you want to start a thread regarding Lebanon I will happily participate because, as you know, I do have family there. Warmest regards Terry Where did I go off topic Terry? I am still discussing the attack. |
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Middle East forum 101 I committed the cardinal sin in the ME region of actually trying to post something relevant to the thread topic. |
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2007, 10:49:39 AM » |
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. Cedar, We are talking about Syria and Israel. I'm sorry but you are off topic. If you want to start a thread regarding Lebanon I will happily participate because, as you know, I do have family there. Warmest regards Terry Terry, it is impossible that an action like this is taken without the prior knowledge and approval of the US. Suppose Syria decides to retliate, Iran decides to enter the battle, Hizbullah opens fire on Israel's northern borders. Do you think the US will be taken aback because they had absolutely no knowledge of the operation? Do you think Israel will do that to its only ally with the US in a mess in Iraq? Besides Israel will need back up from the US in case of retaliation. They won't start a war alone. Israel would never take such action without a contingency plan in case of retaliation, prepared with the US. Never. They both knew and both participated in the operation Cedar, If Israel felt threatened and had good reason to feel that way, the U.S. would/could not stop them. I am sure the U.S. was notified beforehand. However, and this is very important, I don't think Israel cares what the U.S. or any nation thinks anymore. But what do I know? IMHO Warmest regards Cedar, I worry for you as well, you know that. Terry |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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