Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Karma: +212/-207
Posts: 4,099
"You do not speak for the rest"
|
 |
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2007, 12:36:50 PM » |
|
my last point was that only country Israel could rely on was US,,, now the unsuccessful campaign of US army in Iraq used by your nationalists as finger point towards Israel while Iraq has nothing to do with Israel but just American dream of your government,,, same as first time you attacked it in 90'...
Israel should rely on itself and do not publicly explain anything it does,,,, this includes you and your neigbour Jack... on high level Israel does any explanation it asked to from allies and neutral countries,,,
Any proper army attacks foreign targets around the world without being asked to explain,,, like Iranian army attacked US army HQ in Lebanon some time ago,,, someone asked for explanation? No,,, you sue them decade afterwards,,,
Israel should explain it's actions only and only to Turkey if it passed though it air space as Turkey is neutral to Israel,,, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia or Iraq can go f them self until they sign a peace treaty,,,
the most important is legitimate means responsible, without being responsible government cannot be legitimate,,, Syria is a great example of that,,, In any normal circumstance, I would agree, but given the tensions in that region, unprovoked and unreasonable attacks is what makes war. Perhaps if the rest of the world held those countries accountable for their actions there would be less of a desire to commit them. Of course, this means making China and Russia care about Iran... but we all know this won't happen. I just see all these wars with no real "provoker", like the war last summer between Israel and Lebanon. Maybe this free pass we give people is what CREATES this. I just can't believe Israel can do this in a region like the Middle East and NOT have to explain why or how they did it. If Syria had nukes, why shouldn't we know? If North Korea is selling their nuclear material, why shouldn't we know? Doesn't this fall under the "War on Terror"? I'm just surprised how few people care for an explanation, whether they are in the government structure or not. That's all. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
Terry Mathis
High Society
Hero Member
Karma: +57/-92
Posts: 1,239
Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
|
|
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2007, 12:49:26 PM » |
|
. I agree 100% Abraxus. It baffles me too. All we can do is keep the word out I guess.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
|
|
Cryptomaniac
Full Member
Karma: +35/-5
Posts: 185
|
|
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2007, 06:45:35 PM » |
|
In normal circumstances, maybe, but this region is prone to conflict and for Israel to be able to do this without sufficiently proving it had accurate information is irresponcible.
I'm sure it was a military target of some kind, but they haven't assured ANYONE that it was nuclear in nature.
Furthermore, if North Korea IS exporting nuclear material the US certaintly has a right to know considering this action would surely violate the terms of the agreement we signed recently with them. I'm not disagreeing with you in principle. I'm merely stating that in Israel's eyes, it is better to keep it under wraps if indeed they know what they hit and that they are safe. I try to put myself in Israel's shoes right now and to be honest, I don't believe there is ANYTHING they could do that would "prove" they hit what they say they hit. Seriously, if the Israeli's presented a 3-hour show-and-tell with satellite imagery, testimony from operatives, diagrams, documents, and audio tapes, I bet every penny I have that they would be torn apart by most of the world. Russia, China, Iran, Syria, North Korea - they would deny everything and be scornful of Israel to the end. The Europeans wouldn't pat them on the back for good intelligence work but instead present a united position of "this is not the way to safeguard peace in the region", and the world media would lambast Israel to no end. If they dragged the stuff out of Syria and put it in front of the UN, people the world over would call it planted or contrived evidence. The US would do its usual song-and-dance about self-defence and the dangerous of a nuclear-armed Syria, and of course be accused of hypocracy and helping to destabilize the region. Israel knows this and as such are keeping things under wraps. I think they buy themselves very little with the "honesty is the best policy" approach since nobody will believe them anyway. Then why no joint statement from the intelegence department? Like you said, no one has condemned these actions... but no one has supported them either.
I would think the elimination of a nuclear threat from Syria would make BIG news... but for some reason it hasn't? Why? I'm only worried by how little noise this is making and why no one is asking more questions.
There are 2 possibilities:
1) Syria DID buy nuclear material from North Korea and was planning to use a nuclear based weapon on somebody - most likely Israel.
2) Israel launched an attack on Syria without provocation or reason... or their intelegence is SEVERELY flawed.
Either way, this should be all over the news... but it's not. Why?
As I said, it is quite possible that the Western intelligence agencies are convinced that Israel attacked a high-value target. Mind you, this is pure speculation - I'm merely pointing out possible reasons. If Western intelligence is convinced, what would they say to the public? And, would you believe them? My guess is that anything out of the US or British intelligence services would be laughed at. Israel would just be ignored, and then who is left? Wouldn't people want proof? And how can Israel provide that proof without endangering their future intelligence-gathering methods. It is not a simple solution in my mind, and the decision to sing is not an easy one. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
14-years-old-jane
|
|
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2007, 01:33:21 AM » |
|
In any normal circumstance, I would agree, but given the tensions in that region, unprovoked and unreasonable attacks is what makes war. Perhaps if the rest of the world held those countries accountable for their actions there would be less of a desire to commit them.
Of course, this means making China and Russia care about Iran... but we all know this won't happen.
I just see all these wars with no real "provoker", like the war last summer between Israel and Lebanon. Maybe this free pass we give people is what CREATES this.
I just can't believe Israel can do this in a region like the Middle East and NOT have to explain why or how they did it. If Syria had nukes, why shouldn't we know? If North Korea is selling their nuclear material, why shouldn't we know? Doesn't this fall under the "War on Terror"?
I'm just surprised how few people care for an explanation, whether they are in the government structure or not. That's all.
first of there is no normal situation over Middle East,,, second of ppl shouldn't know what weaponry countries have or not,,, it just creates panic and have nothing to do wit War on Terror,,, of course in my interpretation of this therm,,, third and most important,,,, who the heck are you to control Israel's action? saying things like "because we allow them freedom" is total crp,,, your country butt f-ed half of the world for last 50 ears while other half butt f-ed by Soviets,,, imho you have no right to decide a thing,,, same as Europeans who no better,,, so it keeps Israel versus Muslims as both are part of the conflict none of them should decide but negotiate... Modern Iran that mainly treats Israel is YOUR AMERICAN CREATION, Israel was one of main Iranian allies prior revolution... Also you activated Iran with unbalancing Iraq, the only retarded enough government to create full scale war for nothing,, no Arab "leader" have balls to negotiate with Israelis,,, they come from state Israel owes them while Israel owes nothing to no one (except US),,, Arabs need to understand they lost in war they started with no reason,,, politically... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Each time homosexuals make sex, 1-2 babies die and 1-2 constipations are solved ...
|
|
|
Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Karma: +212/-207
Posts: 4,099
"You do not speak for the rest"
|
|
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2007, 11:45:44 AM » |
|
Crypto: At least we agree on princible... and I understand that what I think is probably not possible. I'm also ashamed at how unreported this went in the states. Everyone is so up in arms about OJ Simpson... and we've got MORE issues in the Middle East (other than Iraq or Iran, for a change) and it just amazes me how few people have heard about this. first of there is no normal situation over Middle East,,, second of ppl shouldn't know what weaponry countries have or not,,, it just creates panic and have nothing to do wit War on Terror,,, of course in my interpretation of this therm,,, Then we shouldn't care if countries like Iran or Syria has a nuclear weapon? Are you insane? third and most important,,,, who the heck are you to control Israel's action? saying things like "because we allow them freedom" is total crp,,, your country butt f-ed half of the world for last 50 ears while other half butt f-ed by Soviets,,, imho you have no right to decide a thing,,, same as Europeans who no better,,, so it keeps Israel versus Muslims as both are part of the conflict none of them should decide but negotiate... When did I *EVER* say we "granted freedom" to Israel? Modern Iran that mainly treats Israel is YOUR AMERICAN CREATION, Israel was one of main Iranian allies prior revolution... Also you activated Iran with unbalancing Iraq, the only retarded enough government to create full scale war for nothing,, Technically, *I* did nothing. My country did, so let's be clear to seperate the nation from the citizen. Also, everything you mentioned is what I disagree with in past foreign policy. Supporting the Shah in the 70's and then support Hussein after that and then aiding Turkey, Israel and Egypt are all HUGE mistakes my *country* has made and I disagree with them. no Arab "leader" have balls to negotiate with Israelis,,, they come from state Israel owes them while Israel owes nothing to no one (except US),,, Arabs need to understand they lost in war they started with no reason,,, politically... No one "lost" any war. If there was a victor and a loser we wouldn't be having this shit all the time in the Middle East. Arabs and Jews are still *at* war, as I'm sure you well know. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
|
14-years-old-jane
|
|
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2007, 01:03:09 PM » |
|
1.What does "War on Terror" has to do with enemy country of yours having nukes ? Are you insane telling claiming that world wide ?
2. You said - "Maybe this free pass we give people is what CREATES this" ,,, in other words you claimed that you allow Israel to cause chaos from your point of view...
3.Technically you voted for government and you held responsible for your government actions alike i do, even if i don't want to or disagree with that... This is how it works,,,
4.Israel been forcefully stopped by "big players" from invading whole Arab countries in two wars,,, It had all it takes to do that,,, not just these jokes: Sinai, Golan Heights and Palestine(67'),,, If in your words to win in war is overtake fully the opponent then Israel kept out of from doing that by Soviet Union and US mainly,,, for me win in war is to have more under control land after the event,,, clearly Israel is the winner,,,
full capitulation like Soviets caused to Germans during WWII would have happen in this case if your country and Russians won't stick their noses to ME oil and "proportional forces",,, so both kids (jews and arabs) will play their silly games to export more and more oil and buy more and more arms,,,
Both of you give a big time credit (money) to Jews and Arabs,,, you pay some 10billion around ME and Russians give away weapons as Arabs mostly never pay for anything but they sell cheaper oil,,,
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Each time homosexuals make sex, 1-2 babies die and 1-2 constipations are solved ...
|
|
|
Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Karma: +212/-207
Posts: 4,099
"You do not speak for the rest"
|
|
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2007, 01:45:47 PM » |
|
1.What does "War on Terror" has to do with enemy country of yours having nukes ? Are you insane telling claiming that world wide ? North Korea selling Nuclear Material is VERY important for many reasons. Surely you see why? 2. You said - "Maybe this free pass we give people is what CREATES this" ,,, in other words you claimed that you allow Israel to cause chaos from your point of view... I meant the total lack of criticizim. Israel already did this. We can't stop them... but I think the responcible thing to do would be to find out WHY they did it. Otherwise, we're just excusing a blatant attempt to increase tension in the region. 3.Technically you voted for government and you held responsible for your government actions alike i do, even if i don't want to or disagree with that... This is how it works,,, First of all, I just got the right to vote 2 years ago and was unable to change anything my country has done before then. Also, holding personal citizens responcible for the acts of their government is TOTALLY ridiculous... and it surprises me that you think this. What's to say the people I voted for won? What's to say the people that DID win di what they SAID they were going to do? May I ask where YOU are from? Both of you give a big time credit (money) to Jews and Arabs,,, you pay some 10billion around ME and Russians give away weapons as Arabs mostly never pay for anything but they sell cheaper oil,,, Do you understand that I agree with you on how ridiculous this policy is? Obviously you don't. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
|
14-years-old-jane
|
|
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2007, 02:07:33 PM » |
|
1.
Any country with nuclear technology does sell some of it, if Israel done a military operation to prevent that from happening in Syria doesn't mean all of the world should know about it but certainly ppl in government do,,, even in your government,,, including your president,,, media wasn't quiet about that,, they cannot show live from Middle East 24hours direct,,, At any country around the world it got to the news 6-8 hours after this happened,,, as it was during night, no civilians got hurt and Syrian tried to cover anything happened in there there was no big deal out of it,,, most important Israeli Army does spy and mission flies over ME countries so those won't cowardly back stab Israel like they did in the past wars,,,
2.
Go for it, find out why did Israel do that,,, i'm quite sure you will never find out,,, unless you will get elected,,, attempt? Oh, god... Just look on your history over Middle East for past 50 years,,,imho you as American not allowed to say "we're just excusing a blatant attempt to increase tension",,, this is full of crap,,,
Afghani group attack US, you attacked Afghanistan, you say it's wrong but you done that,,, when others do the same,,, you whine,,, got me? I won't go further if it was Afghani group or one you made up some time ago to fight Russians but fact remains fact,,, Israel does what US does,,,
So let's start from US section,,, trust me even ppl like Ron Paul will attack countries around Middle East as it plays best interest of your nation,,, you spread no democracy but need in survival as any nation including Israel do,,, just some countries are on critical point and some like you can allow to do whatever they want to unless it's China, Russia and India now
3. I do understand that you see this policy ridiculous but you as citizen of your country (which is democratic) is responsible for actions of your government,,, anyone on the planet earth will tell you the same thing,,,
You dislike this policy, go on protest, wait for elections to vote for one that claims he/she will leave ME in peace and won't give others to interrupt ME,,, or organize a political movement that fights policy you dislike,,,
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Each time homosexuals make sex, 1-2 babies die and 1-2 constipations are solved ...
|
|
|
Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Karma: +212/-207
Posts: 4,099
"You do not speak for the rest"
|
|
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2007, 02:31:39 PM » |
|
1.
Any country with nuclear technology does sell some of it, if Israel done a military operation to prevent that from happening in Syria doesn't mean all of the world should know about it but certainly ppl in government do,,, even in your government,,, including your president,,, media wasn't quiet about that,, they cannot show live from Middle East 24hours direct,,, At any country around the world it got to the news 6-8 hours after this happened,,, as it was during night, no civilians got hurt and Syrian tried to cover anything happened in there there was no big deal out of it,,, most important Israeli Army does spy and mission flies over ME countries so those won't cowardly back stab Israel like they did in the past wars,,, You show me proof that anyone, aside from Israel Intelegence, knew about this operation please. Until then, its speculation. 2.
Go for it, find out why did Israel do that,,, i'm quite sure you will never find out,,, unless you will get elected,,, attempt? Oh, god... Just look on your history over Middle East for past 50 years,,,imho you as American not allowed to say "we're just excusing a blatant attempt to increase tension",,, this is full of crap,,,
Afghani group attack US, you attacked Afghanistan, you say it's wrong but you done that,,, when others do the same,,, you whine,,, got me? I won't go further if it was Afghani group or one you made up some time ago to fight Russians but fact remains fact,,, Israel does what US does,,, When was the last time Syria actually (militarily) attacked Israel? You know what, it's not even the attack that matters, it's the claim that Syria had nuclear weapons and bought them from North Korea. If this is true... doesn't a responcible government have to PROVE this? Until this is proved the attack was completely unprovoked and unreasonable. Also, we didn't strike Afganistan, the country, we simply struck the Al Quida network that happened to be *IN* Afganistan. I was in agreement with my government then, but then we went to Iraq and I lost all faith in my leaders. So let's start from US section,,, trust me even ppl like Ron Paul will attack countries around Middle East as it plays best interest of your nation,,, you spread no democracy but need in survival as any nation including Israel do,,, just some countries are on critical point and some like you can allow to do whatever they want to unless it's China, Russia and India now Well, Ron Paul has no intrest in building Democracies around the world or forging foreign relations (like we have in the past) with countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia. Also, China and India are becoming a larger threat right now, becoming a serious economic threat. Now tell me why honking them off is a good idea? 3. I do understand that you see this policy ridiculous but you as citizen of your country (which is democratic) is responsible for actions of your government,,, anyone on the planet earth will tell you the same thing,,, I COULDN'T EVEN VOTE! This is ludicrous. You dislike this policy, go on protest, wait for elections to vote for one that claims he/she will leave ME in peace and won't give others to interrupt ME,,, or organize a political movement that fights policy you dislike,,, I do plan on changing the current US policy by using my right to vote (which I can FINALLY use) to change the administaration and as much of Congress as I can. Now I finally have a means to express myself where there may be REAL changes. Protesting is one thing, but the power to vote is much more. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
Terry Mathis
High Society
Hero Member
Karma: +57/-92
Posts: 1,239
Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
|
|
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2007, 02:37:47 PM » |
|
.
1. Ron Paul is a fringe radical right idiot.
2. Coalition forces should leave the Mid-East unless requested for a good reason.
3. No one can stop 4,000+ years of Tribal Warfare, not the tribes of Israel, nor the Arabs or Shia and Sunni.
4. The World arms trade just HAS to be controlled.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
|
|
|
14-years-old-jane
|
|
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2007, 02:59:39 PM » |
|
1. show me proof that even an Israeli intelligence knew about operation, show me proof that Israeli Air forces did attack in Syria, show me a proof you have never made sex to your 4th grade male friend!!! Until then all of these are speculation but fact remains fact, US does know about Israeli operation and Turkey knew about operation that would take a place near it's borders,,, this is how allies work with it other,,, if some guy named Abraxas from where you live at don't know shite,,, doesn't mean no one does,,,
Create a list of what you dislike in current government,,, like it's ME policy (it's global BTW, not ME) and that high military commanders never inform you about operation of their allies,,, Ron Paul imho,,, he will personally all you
2. full of BS,,,
You attacked current and legitimate government of Afghanistan and created alliance with opposition that been kicked out of Afghanistan long ago,,, Taliban,,, again group you made back in 70'-80' to fight Ruskies....
Israeli officials never claimed Syria got a deal with North Koreans or Syrian want to have nuclear weapons, this is what your media have told as one of reasons for "supposed" attack,,, nothing more,,,
Syria attacked Israel few decades ago as country since then it been using Hezballah,,, seems you don't know a thing about ME,,,
3. Okey, you know interests of Ron Paul,,, boy you just few years younger than me but still believe in what politicians say is actually what they will do,,, Bush never said he would attack ME countries as well or to have great relationships with Saudi Arabia (as US needs allies over where it fights)
4.Do you think boy named Ahmed could vote Saddam when your army blew off his house with family inside? I'm just arguing with you,,, your army blew off his house... is not fair, aye?
5. you can do both,,, just stay out of extremism,,,
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Each time homosexuals make sex, 1-2 babies die and 1-2 constipations are solved ...
|
|
|
Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Karma: +212/-207
Posts: 4,099
"You do not speak for the rest"
|
|
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2007, 03:05:41 PM » |
|
I'm tired of seperating what my government does (a government I can't even elect) from myself, so if you say *I* blew up Ahmed's house, then I will not argue with your myopic and misguided intentions.
As for the topic:
I think Israel owes the world an explanation.
You don't.
Neither of us is going to change our minds so I suggest we just stop this now. The topics already gone on long enough in a stalemate. No reason to continue it.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
|
14-years-old-jane
|
|
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2007, 03:26:57 PM » |
|
Israel doesn't owes you anything
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Each time homosexuals make sex, 1-2 babies die and 1-2 constipations are solved ...
|
|
|
Cryptomaniac
Full Member
Karma: +35/-5
Posts: 185
|
|
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2007, 06:04:35 PM » |
|
Crypto: At least we agree on princible... and I understand that what I think is probably not possible.
I'm also ashamed at how unreported this went in the states. Everyone is so up in arms about OJ Simpson... and we've got MORE issues in the Middle East (other than Iraq or Iran, for a change) and it just amazes me how few people have heard about this.
Well, if everyone were of your opinion, wars wouldn't be that common. Unfortunately, there are always bad apples and they tend to start things they can't finish. It leads to a lot of suffering and pain. And I think TV news is a pure joke. Of course we hear about OJ and Britney - it is what couch-potatos want to hear about. But there are a LOT of people that have heard about this, that talk about this, and have opinions about this. I think Americans are better informed than we are given credit for but the real losers outshine the ones that actually read and pay attention. I believe someone on this board posted a quote that is particularly relevent: Great minds talk about ideas,
Average minds talk about events,
Weak minds talk about people.You can tell by any conversation going on around you what minds you are dealing with by the topics they discuss. People are easy for other people to talk about. It takes a 3rd grade education and the mental capacity of a grapefruit to tell us what we should think about OJ, Britney, or Lindsey Lohan. Ideas are rarely discussed. I think it tells us much about the people reporting the news. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Peisithanatos
|
|
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2007, 09:37:17 AM » |
|
it's obvious: it was a probe of Assad's determination. Such little strikes do not guarantee anything except a provocation. Assad was tested about his willingness to war; quite likely, about his readiness to enter war on Iran's side. Assad swallowed the provocation, and this makes a big regional war one big step closer.
The natural reaction to this act of war would be to launch a few missiles into Israel, as a test of Israel's air defense, and a couple into Turkey who, in fact, committed an act of war against Syria by allowing the attack to originate from her territory. Assad's failure to respond encourages the transoceanic war party to move further towards the big war.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
|
|
|
|
