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Author Topic: God & Hitler.... What's the difference?  (Read 1297 times)
Rich1981
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« on: January 06, 2008, 06:27:59 AM »

I would be fascinated to hear how those who extol the virtues of the bible, and indeed claim that morality is derived from scripture reconcile the story of Joshua at the battle of Jericho and the following stories about the annexation of the promised land.

Good old Joshua "destoryed all that was in the city, both man and women, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass with the edge of the sword." Joshua (6:21)

No doubt some theologians reading this will state that this didn't actually happen, or that it is a metaphor. The point I am interested in understanding is how the story about the invasion of the promised land and massacre of the inhabitants is somehow worthy of biblical status when it is morally indistinguishable from Hitler’s invasion of Poland or Saddam Hussains massacres of the Kurds.

If this story was in the sacred texts of another religion or culture than our own we would recoil in disgust at the god who says " Thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely the Hittites, and the Amorites, The Canaanites, and the Perizzites, The Hivites and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.'

If this were the only biblical example of the brutality and petty mindedness of God I would happily let it go. However, the Bible is littered with brutal acts comissioned or carried out by God. It mystifies me as to how any one would claim it is a source of morality.

Somehow, ethnic genocide when ordered by God is a virtuous act, yet the 'tyrants' of the 20th Century are reviled.... Morality and the bible.... I think not

principle argument and quotations from Richard Dawkins the God Delusion
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Shehrazad
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2008, 06:49:53 AM »

I agree that this verse is very confusing,, killing women and youngs are unacceptable!

However the thread's Title is disturbing too, please change it.
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2008, 07:00:55 AM »

The primary difference is that Hitler was an atheist who was following the principles of a social Darwinian model of Genetic superiority to justify the elimination of entire societies for no other reason than their genetic makeup.  Moses, Joshua and other biblical leaders were targeting societies that were openly hostile to the Israelites and would have utterly destroyed them if they could.

Another major difference is that the Israeli leaders were taking orders directly from the being who has providence over life and death.  They had the moral permissive to take life.


I would be fascinated to hear how those who extol the virtues of the bible, and indeed claim that morality is derived from scripture reconcile the story of Joshua at the battle of Jericho and the following stories about the annexation of the promised land.

Good old Joshua "destoryed all that was in the city, both man and women, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass with the edge of the sword." Joshua (6:21)

After first having attempted to live peacefully then having been attacked by them more than once and then signaling their intentions and providing ample opportunity for all who wished to flee or even join them.  Only then did God declare the remaining people hopelessly corrupted and order them killed.  Many times the Israelis refused to carry it out and these remaining societies indeed corrupted many of the Israelites.

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No doubt some theologians reading this will state that this didn't actually happen, or that it is a metaphor. The point I am interested in understanding is how the story about the invasion of the promised land and massacre of the inhabitants is somehow worthy of biblical status when it is morally indistinguishable from Hitler’s invasion of Poland or Saddam Hussains massacres of the Kurds.

If this story was in the sacred texts of another religion or culture than our own we would recoil in disgust at the god who says " Thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely the Hittites, and the Amorites, The Canaanites, and the Perizzites, The Hivites and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.'

I will not argue they are metaphors.  I do wonder how we can make a direct comparison to Hitler and Saddam.  Let's explore this further.  

I presume you grant that the Israelis were justified in defending themselves but that once the threat had subsided by virtue of them destroying their army and all means to wage war anything beyond that was not keeping with proper moral principles?  Do you agree?  If you do I will come back to this for more discussion.  We need to establish what are the proper moral principles to judge the Israelis and so forth.

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If this were the only biblical example of the brutality and petty mindedness of God I would happily let it go. However, the Bible is littered with brutal acts comissioned or carried out by God. It mystifies me as to how any one would claim it is a source of morality.

Somehow, ethnic genocide when ordered by God is a virtuous act, yet the 'tyrants' of the 20th Century are reviled.... Morality and the bible.... I think not

You provide a hint as to what moral code we should be using to judge the actions of Moses and Joshua here.  I believe I can make sense of it if you will grant an open mind.

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Rich1981
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2008, 09:17:23 AM »

Firtsly, I am an atheist and I can see no relationship between Hitler's atheism and his fundamental hatred of Judaism. Indeed, many of the greatest enemies towards Judaism today are in fact, devout religious believers from other faiths rather than atheists. The notion that Hitlers atheism is relevant to his crimes is misleading and incorrect.

Hitler believed the Jews were the enemy of Germany and justified his slaughter both in terms of eugenics and his belief that they were a genuine threat to the stabilty of Germany. As such his justification to alienate and later murder the Jews can comfortably be argued as identical to Joshua's war crimes, they were an enemy, hence fair game; the difference in interpretation on this subject comes from the partisan attitude of the reader. To demonstrate this point further.....

George Tamarin, the Israeli psychologist, presented the story of Joshua at Jericho to more than a thousand Israeli school children aged between eight and fourteen. After reading the account of the battle of Jericho the children were asked a simple moral question:'Do you think Joshua and the Israelites acted rightly or not?' They had to choose between A (total approval) B (Partial Approval) and C (Total disaproval). The results were polarized: 66% gave total approval and 26% total disaproval, with rather fewer 8% in the middle with partial approval.

For those children who gave total disaproval for the masacre many did so for backhanded religious reasons. One girl, for example, disapproved of Joshua's conquering Jericho because in order to do it he had to enter it: "I think it is bad since the Arabs are impure and if one enters an impure land one will also become impure and share thier curse."

Now the really fascinating part of this experiment is that a control group of 168 Israeli children were given the identical text from the book of Joshua, but with Joshua's own name replaced by 'General Lin' and Israel replaced by 'A Chinese Kingdom 3,000 years ago.' Now the experiment gave opposite results. Only 7% approved of General Lin's behaviour and 75% disapproved. In other words, when their loyalty to Judaism was removed from the calculation, the majority of children agreed with the moral judgements that most modern humans would share. It all looks different from a religious point of view.

The above is the crux of this matter and arguably reinforced by your assertion that Joshua "had the moral permissive to take life" owing to the fact he was, "Taking orders directly from the being who has providence over life and death." I believe it is this faith that is the precursor to genocide, rather than a lack of belief in God.

Those who make extraordinary assertions, as in the case of Joshua taking orders directly from the 'One True Creator,' need extraordinary proofs to persuade the open minded atheist, that the resultant genocide was just and divinely inspired.

However, I am open minded and happy to recant all of the above if a better proof is available, I look forward to your replies.

 

Primary argument and quantitive data from Richard Dawkins, the God Delusion
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Rich1981
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2008, 09:28:17 AM »

I agree that this verse is very confusing,, killing women and youngs are unacceptable!

However the thread's Title is disturbing too, please change it.

I am sorry you feel the title is disturbing, it is however a question that I believe is honest and fair based upon the way God behaves throught the Old Testament in particular.

Turning people to salt for the rather mild offence of looking over their shoulder I should think outstrips any of the major despots of the 20th Century....
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Patton
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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2008, 09:45:37 AM »

It mystifies me as to how any one would claim it is a source of morality.

Was the passage you cited a morality lesson or a history lesson?  If you look at the book which is the foundation of two independent and distinct faiths as ALL simply a book of morals, then you just don't get it.....and as an atheist, I wouldn't expect you to.

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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2008, 09:49:15 AM »

Rich i agree with most of what you saying but GOD never asked man to kill unlike a man named Hitler. GOD never wrote a book that asks to kill but human like Hitler did, the ones who seek in cheap source of power over other human.

GOD is not religion. GOD is something you cannot understand and never will thus powerless and ugly kids(morally) used GOD in order to get into powers. GOD is much above human hatred and humans are as retard as other animals while thinking they are the most important figure for GOD to think about.

So I would agree with title "Christianity & Nazism... what the difference"? Same title can be applied to modern Islam is it because as aggressive as Christianity of dark ages. GOD has nothing to do with it, it been cowardly used by pedophiles, murderers and mentally retarded as excuse for their aggression.

Don't get me wrong with "Islam and Christianity",,, all religions are from the same type but other religions i'm familiar with are too small to create worldwide chaos,,, well i'm not familiar with Hinduism and Maoism to tell how those peace loving bastards drunk human blood hence the concentration on two religions i'm familiar with and live side by side with
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 09:51:32 AM by 14-years-old-jane » Logged

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Rich1981
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« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2008, 09:57:32 AM »

It mystifies me as to how any one would claim it is a source of morality.

Was the passage you cited a morality lesson or a history lesson?  If you look at the book which is the foundation of two independent and distinct faiths as ALL simply a book of morals, then you just don't get it.....and as an atheist, I wouldn't expect you to.



Strange how applying reason to the bible brings out such venom in people. It was neither a history lesson or a morality lesson, merely a demonstration as to the fallacy that religion is responsible for morality.
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Patton
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« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2008, 10:40:42 AM »

It mystifies me as to how any one would claim it is a source of morality.

Was the passage you cited a morality lesson or a history lesson?  If you look at the book which is the foundation of two independent and distinct faiths as ALL simply a book of morals, then you just don't get it.....and as an atheist, I wouldn't expect you to.

Strange how applying reason to the bible brings out such venom in people. It was neither a history lesson or a morality lesson, merely a demonstration as to the fallacy that religion is responsible for morality.

Strange how answering an atheist point blank is labeled "venom".

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the fallacy that religion is responsible for morality.

I am responsible for myself taking all things into consideration, you may abdicate your responsibility anyway you wish.
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Shehrazad
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« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2008, 10:51:59 AM »

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Moses, Joshua and other biblical leaders were targeting societies that were openly hostile to the Israelites and would have utterly destroyed them if they could.

Another major difference is that the Israeli leaders were taking orders directly from the being who has providence over life and death.  They had the moral permissive to take life.

I presume you grant that the Israelis were justified in defending themselves but that once the threat had subsided by virtue of them destroying their army and all means to wage war anything beyond that was not keeping with proper moral principles?  Do you agree?


Well, I think all abrahamic religions are legitimating self-defense- none discusses that point.

But how do you see that killing youngs and women, herd are consistent with religious or divine orders? is it acceptable?

"destoryed all that was in the city, both man and women, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass with the edge of the sword"

take this:
In the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshipping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.
(Deut.20:16-18)

Do you really think it's God words
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 10:55:52 AM by Shehrazad » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2008, 11:21:59 AM »

According to the scripture you cite....were these people living in "Gods ways?"  Were these people, and their beliefs, a threat to "Gods chosen?" Maybe there is more you choose to leave out.
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« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2008, 12:16:54 PM »

The difference? Luckily one never existed, but unfortunately one did.
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Rich1981
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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2008, 12:58:42 PM »

Strange how answering an atheist point blank is labeled "venom"

How sad that the poster of this comment is unable to debate the thread on merit, instead choosing to constantly bring up the authors atheism. I put it to you that all of your posts thus far are academically vacuous and that your historical preachings about encouraging fair and reasoned discussion are, on the strength of your inability to engage in this discussion, little more than an pseudo liberal front to a very closed mind...

if you want to prove me wrong I am happy to listen to your reasons for disagreeing with the thread as opposed to your irrelevant, constant and dismissive mentioning of my lack of religious belief.
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Rich1981
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2008, 01:02:45 PM »

The difference? Luckily one never existed, but unfortunately one did.

Marvellous answer, but a few hundred years too soon I guess!
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2008, 01:10:12 PM »

Great post, Rich.  I have found that while most people consider these acts horrible, only the Xian zealot finds a way to apologize for it by appealing to something he cannot prove, has no intention of proving or feels no need to prove: his Faith.

This Faith, as you pointed out, gives him - in his mind - permission to kill men, women and children without pity, remorse or conscience.
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