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Author Topic: God & Hitler.... What's the difference?  (Read 1965 times)
Patton
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2008, 02:51:50 PM »

How sad that the poster of this comment is unable to debate the thread on merit, instead choosing to constantly bring up the authors atheism.

How sad that the poster of this comment is unable to see his atheism matters while he feverishly "assesses" scripture. He sees a direct answer as being "unable to debate the thread on merit"......instead choosing to constantly ignore the prior comment made.

I put it to you that all of your posts thus far are intellectually vacuous and that your historical depth of understanding is lacking. You are anything but about encouraging fair and reasoned discussion, and are, on the demonstration of your inability to engage in this discussion, little more than a pseudo intellectual front to a very closed mind...

I grow tired of your irrelevant, constant and dismissive mentioning of my religious belief.......move along.

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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2008, 03:02:14 PM »


How sad that the poster of this comment is unable to see his atheism matters while he feverishly "assesses" scripture. He sees a direct answer as being "unable to debate the thread on merit"......instead choosing to constantly ignore the prior comment made.

I put it to you that all of your posts thus far are intellectually vacuous and that your historical depth of understanding is lacking. You are anything but about encouraging fair and reasoned discussion, and are, on the demonstration of your inability to engage in this discussion, little more than a pseudo intellectual front to a very closed mind...

I grow tired of your irrelevant, constant and dismissive mentioning of my religious belief.......move along.



Imitation is the greatest compliment; I note the author still fails to engage the thread with any substance. I warmly invite you to do so once again, unless you would rather not, or for some reason are unable to tread on such (apparent) difficult ground.

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Patton
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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2008, 03:10:35 PM »

What part of "Was the passage you cited a morality lesson or a history lesson?" did you not understand?

You followed that up with some garbage about "venom"......and with more garbage about religion being responsible for morality   totally negating personal responsibility in following law.

Your pitiful attempts at making it seem your pathetic thesis wasn't addressed is rather silly.




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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood

-George S. Patton
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« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2008, 04:14:42 PM »

BTW, welcome Rich, great first post to get our thinking caps on and ponder a 2000+ year old mythology that has been largely accepted as true for most of that time. 
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« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2008, 05:15:20 PM »

Firtsly, I am an atheist and I can see no relationship between Hitler's atheism and his fundamental hatred of Judaism. Indeed, many of the greatest enemies towards Judaism today are in fact, devout religious believers from other faiths rather than atheists. The notion that Hitlers atheism is relevant to his crimes is misleading and incorrect.

Hitler believed the Jews were the enemy of Germany and justified his slaughter both in terms of eugenics and his belief that they were a genuine threat to the stabilty of Germany.

You might have a different viewpoint if you were to read Hitler's book.  One goal of his was to create a pure genetic Arian race free of the scourge of impure lines especially Jews.  His view was very atheistic/materialistic and was was expressed in the Social Darwinism of Eugenics and in internment and elimination of non Arian races.

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As such his justification to alienate and later murder the Jews can comfortably be argued as identical to Joshua's war crimes, they were an enemy, hence fair game; the difference in interpretation on this subject comes from the partisan attitude of the reader.

The difference is largely in making a distinction between a direct physical threat and the forced elimination of people on the basis of their race.  Did Hitler allow assimilation into the German people for anyone who voluntarily surrendered?  No he did not.  He did not because his motives were quite different.

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Now the really fascinating part of this experiment is that a control group of 168 Israeli children were given the identical text from the book of Joshua, but with Joshua's own name replaced by 'General Lin' and Israel replaced by 'A Chinese Kingdom 3,000 years ago.' Now the experiment gave opposite results. Only 7% approved of General Lin's behaviour and 75% disapproved. In other words, when their loyalty to Judaism was removed from the calculation, the majority of children agreed with the moral judgements that most modern humans would share. It all looks different from a religious point of view.

Of course.  The elimination of non-combatants after defeat cannot be justified if God did not directly order that they be killed.

Quote
The above is the crux of this matter and arguably reinforced by your assertion that Joshua "had the moral permissive to take life" owing to the fact he was, "Taking orders directly from the being who has providence over life and death." I believe it is this faith that is the precursor to genocide, rather than a lack of belief in God.

If Joshua really watched the Red Sea part, directly observed the burning bush, and the plagues, if he had seen water flow from springs in the desert and food fall from the sky, then it would be easy to accept a command from God.  If not, then he indeed is a murderer.  It is as simple as that.

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Those who make extraordinary assertions, as in the case of Joshua taking orders directly from the 'One True Creator,' need extraordinary proofs to persuade the open minded atheist, that the resultant genocide was just and divinely inspired.

I don't recall making any assertions to you or attempting to convince you that scripture is true.  I do see that you asked how those like me reconcile it with the principles derived from the same source and I have begun to answer your question.  I am not expecting you to suddenly accept that Joshua was guided by God.  I would hope that you would see that if Joshua's words are true then his actions were consistent with scripture.  Here is why I say this:

The story is internally consistent with the moral directives in the bible if the history leading up to the events in question are portrayed accurately.  You began this post by suggesting that the actions were inconsistent with moral codes but you didn't say which codes.  However, if the Bible is true then the stories are indeed internally consistent since God has dominion over life and death.  If on the other hand the stories of God's demonstrations to the Israelites in Egypt and the desert are false then the stories of conquest likely are embellished also but either way Joshua is not justified in what he did.  So if my inclination is to believe in the God of Abraham, then the stories are justified by the moral code of the scripture and I should have no trouble with it.
 

Quote
However, I am open minded and happy to recant all of the above if a better proof is available, I look forward to your replies.

Again, I have no illusion that I can completely overturn your faith in a few words.  You did not ask for proof in your opening but now you do (are you moving the goal post?).  You first asked how the stories can be reconciled.   If you ask that they be reconciled to Judaic-Christian principles I can do that.  If you ask that they be reconciled without presupposing the entire history described by Joshua and Moses is true (not just the part you choose to accept) they cannot because the historical account has God physically present and directly interacting with them.  Evidence for this is lost. 

I have said that if Joshua's account is false, he is a murderer and his actions cannot be justified.  Do you agree that if Joshua's entire story is historically accurate, that his actions are justified within the context of scriptural moral principles?

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« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2008, 06:40:36 PM »

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I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that those miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews and who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen.

Grace and peace in the Lord. Dear sir and good friend, I have received a treatise in which a Jew engages in dialog with a Christian. He dares to pervert the scriptural passages which we cite in testimony to our faith, concerning our Lord Christ and Mary his mother, and to interpret them quite differently. With this argument he thinks he can destroy the basis of our faith.

This is my reply to you and to him. It is not my purpose to quarrel with the Jews, nor to learn from them how they interpret or understand Scripture; I know all of that very well already. Much less do I propose to convert the Jews, for that is impossible. Those two excellent men, Lyra and Burgensis, together with others, truthfully described the Jews' vile interpretation for us two hundred and one hundred years ago respectively. Indeed they refuted it thoroughly. However, this was no help at all to the Jews, and they have grown steadily worse.

They have failed to learn any lesson from the terrible distress that has been theirs for over fourteen hundred years in exile. Nor can they obtain any end or definite terminus of this, as they suppose, by means of the vehement cries and laments to God. If these blows do not help, it is resonable to assume that our talking and explaining will help even less.

Therefore a Christian should be content and not argue with the Jews. But if you have to or want to talk with them, do not say any more than this: "Listen, Jew, are you aware that Jerusalem and your sovereignty, together with your temple and priesthood, have been destroyed for over 1,460 years?" For this year, which we Christians write as the year 1542 since the birth of Christ, is exactly 1,468 years, going on fifteen hundred years, since Vespasian and Titus destroyed Jerusalem and expelled the Jews from the city. Let the Jews bite on this nut and dispute this question as long as they wish.

For such ruthless wrath of God is sufficient evidence that they assuredly have erred and gone astray. Even a child can comprehend this. For one dare not regard God as so cruel that he would punish his own people so long, so terribly, so unmercifully, and in addition keep silent, comforting them neither with words nor with deeds, and fixing no time limit and no end to it. Who would have faith, hope, or love toward such a God? Therefore this work of wrath is proof that the Jews, surely rejected by God, are no longer his people, and neither is he any longer their God. This is in accord with Hosea 1:9, "Call his name Not my people, for you are not my people and I am not your God." Yes, unfortunately, this is their lot, truly a terrible one. They may interpret this as they will; we see the facts before our eyes, and these do not deceive us.

If there were but a spark of reason or understanding in them, they would surely say to themselves: "O Lord God, something has gone wrong with us. Our misery is too great, too long, too severe; God has forgotten us!" etc. To be sure, I am not a Jew, but I really do not like to contemplate God's awful wrath toward this people. It sends a shudder of fear through body and soul, for I ask, What will the eternal wrath of God in hell be like toward false Christians and all unbelievers? Well, let the Jews regard our Lord Jesus as they will. We behold the fulfillment of the words spoken by him in Luke 21:20: "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near ... for these are days of vengeance. For great distress shall be upon the earth and wrath upon this people.

In short, as has already been said, do not engage much in debate with Jews about the articles of our faith. From their youth they have been so nurtured with venom and rancor against our Lord that there is no hope until they reach the point where their misery finally makes them pliable and they are forced to confess that the Messiah has come, and that he is our Jesus. Until such a time it is much too early, yes, it is useless to argue with them about how God is triune, how he became man, and how Mary is the mother of God. No human reason nor any human heart will ever grant these things, much less the embittered, venomous, blind heart of the Jews. As has already been said, what God cannot reform with such cruel blows, we will be unable to change with words and works. Moses was unable to reform the Pharaoh by means of plagues, miracles, pleas, or threats; he had to let him drown in the sea.

I cut out about 50 pages of more Anti-Semitism.

Quote
So long an essay, dear sir and good friend, you have elicited from me with your booklet in which a Jew demonstrates his skill in a debate with an absent Christian. He would not, thank God, do this in my presence! My essay, I hope, will furnish a Christian (who in any case has no desire to become a Jew) with enough material not only to defend himself against the blind, venomous Jews, but also to become the foe of the Jews' malice, lying, and cursing, and to understand not only that their belief is false but that they are surely possessed by all devils. May Christ, our dear Lord, convert them mercifully and preserve us steadfastly and immovably in the knowledge of him, which is eternal life. Amen.


http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm


Please click on the link and see how much Martin Luther had to say about the "vile creatures".




This was in addition to other things Martin Luther wrote against the Jews.  I suppose RF will call ML an atheist now!  Hitler was carrying on the fine German tradition of ML and other Xians: Jew hating. Hitler got many of his ideas from Martin Luther, Hitler was a church-goer and died a Xian.
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« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2008, 07:43:02 PM »

Quote
I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that those miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews and who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen.

Grace and peace in the Lord. Dear sir and good friend, I have received a treatise in which a Jew engages in dialog with a Christian. He dares to pervert the scriptural passages which we cite in testimony to our faith, concerning our Lord Christ and Mary his mother, and to interpret them quite differently. With this argument he thinks he can destroy the basis of our faith.

This is my reply to you and to him. It is not my purpose to quarrel with the Jews, nor to learn from them how they interpret or understand Scripture; I know all of that very well already. Much less do I propose to convert the Jews, for that is impossible. Those two excellent men, Lyra and Burgensis, together with others, truthfully described the Jews' vile interpretation for us two hundred and one hundred years ago respectively. Indeed they refuted it thoroughly. However, this was no help at all to the Jews, and they have grown steadily worse.

They have failed to learn any lesson from the terrible distress that has been theirs for over fourteen hundred years in exile. Nor can they obtain any end or definite terminus of this, as they suppose, by means of the vehement cries and laments to God. If these blows do not help, it is resonable to assume that our talking and explaining will help even less.

Therefore a Christian should be content and not argue with the Jews. But if you have to or want to talk with them, do not say any more than this: "Listen, Jew, are you aware that Jerusalem and your sovereignty, together with your temple and priesthood, have been destroyed for over 1,460 years?" For this year, which we Christians write as the year 1542 since the birth of Christ, is exactly 1,468 years, going on fifteen hundred years, since Vespasian and Titus destroyed Jerusalem and expelled the Jews from the city. Let the Jews bite on this nut and dispute this question as long as they wish.

For such ruthless wrath of God is sufficient evidence that they assuredly have erred and gone astray. Even a child can comprehend this. For one dare not regard God as so cruel that he would punish his own people so long, so terribly, so unmercifully, and in addition keep silent, comforting them neither with words nor with deeds, and fixing no time limit and no end to it. Who would have faith, hope, or love toward such a God? Therefore this work of wrath is proof that the Jews, surely rejected by God, are no longer his people, and neither is he any longer their God. This is in accord with Hosea 1:9, "Call his name Not my people, for you are not my people and I am not your God." Yes, unfortunately, this is their lot, truly a terrible one. They may interpret this as they will; we see the facts before our eyes, and these do not deceive us.

If there were but a spark of reason or understanding in them, they would surely say to themselves: "O Lord God, something has gone wrong with us. Our misery is too great, too long, too severe; God has forgotten us!" etc. To be sure, I am not a Jew, but I really do not like to contemplate God's awful wrath toward this people. It sends a shudder of fear through body and soul, for I ask, What will the eternal wrath of God in hell be like toward false Christians and all unbelievers? Well, let the Jews regard our Lord Jesus as they will. We behold the fulfillment of the words spoken by him in Luke 21:20: "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near ... for these are days of vengeance. For great distress shall be upon the earth and wrath upon this people.

In short, as has already been said, do not engage much in debate with Jews about the articles of our faith. From their youth they have been so nurtured with venom and rancor against our Lord that there is no hope until they reach the point where their misery finally makes them pliable and they are forced to confess that the Messiah has come, and that he is our Jesus. Until such a time it is much too early, yes, it is useless to argue with them about how God is triune, how he became man, and how Mary is the mother of God. No human reason nor any human heart will ever grant these things, much less the embittered, venomous, blind heart of the Jews. As has already been said, what God cannot reform with such cruel blows, we will be unable to change with words and works. Moses was unable to reform the Pharaoh by means of plagues, miracles, pleas, or threats; he had to let him drown in the sea.

I cut out about 50 pages of more Anti-Semitism.

Quote
So long an essay, dear sir and good friend, you have elicited from me with your booklet in which a Jew demonstrates his skill in a debate with an absent Christian. He would not, thank God, do this in my presence! My essay, I hope, will furnish a Christian (who in any case has no desire to become a Jew) with enough material not only to defend himself against the blind, venomous Jews, but also to become the foe of the Jews' malice, lying, and cursing, and to understand not only that their belief is false but that they are surely possessed by all devils. May Christ, our dear Lord, convert them mercifully and preserve us steadfastly and immovably in the knowledge of him, which is eternal life. Amen.


http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm


Please click on the link and see how much Martin Luther had to say about the "vile creatures".




This was in addition to other things Martin Luther wrote against the Jews.  I suppose RF will call ML an atheist now!  Hitler was carrying on the fine German tradition of ML and other Xians: Jew hating. Hitler got many of his ideas from Martin Luther, Hitler was a church-goer and died a Xian.

Please document your statement that Hitler died a Christian.

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« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2008, 08:01:18 PM »

There are many:
http://skeptically.org/againstreligion/id13.html

Sure, he had issues with the CC, but who doesn't. Even RC's today have problems with it and voice their opposition but they have no intention of leaving the Church, or the Faith.

PLus, more importantly, he was raised as a RC, he was fed a steady diet of Religiosity and used it to his advantage - as do many religionists (Falwell, Jim Jones, Moses, etc.)


Another:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html

Though, I do notice that he doesn't mention God in his last Will and Testament - so much for appealing to God at your hour of Death!

In the end, this is what people will find: a horrible man claiming to be Catholic (Xian) on one hand, or denouncing the Catholic church on the other - but never claiming he doesn't believe in God (an atheist).
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« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2008, 04:46:18 AM »



Please document your statement that Hitler died a Christian.

OswqaldTheOsprey

Don't forget, you judge a man by what he does and how he behaves and the principles he expouses.  Hitler's actions, policies and goals were athiesm/materialism and social Darwinism to the extreme.  He promoted a pure genetic line,  he advocated for extermination of inferior genetic lines.  His view was that only Arian people should one day dominate the entire world.
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« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2008, 05:43:25 AM »

Plus, more importantly, he was raised as a RC, he was fed a steady diet of Religiosity.....

Hmmmm.....

You were raised Christian....just because one begins life in the church means nothing on how they spend the rest of their life.

You are testimony to that, aren't you?
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood

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OswaldTheOsprey
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« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2008, 08:36:56 AM »

Plus, more importantly, he was raised as a RC, he was fed a steady diet of Religiosity.....

Hmmmm.....

You were raised Christian....just because one begins life in the church means nothing on how they spend the rest of their life.

You are testimony to that, aren't you?

Very good point.

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« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2008, 08:38:26 AM »



Please document your statement that Hitler died a Christian.

OswqaldTheOsprey

Don't forget, you judge a man by what he does and how he behaves and the principles he expouses.  Hitler's actions, policies and goals were athiesm/materialism and social Darwinism to the extreme.  He promoted a pure genetic line,  he advocated for extermination of inferior genetic lines.  His view was that only Arian people should one day dominate the entire world.

Great point, RF. Actions speak louder than words.

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« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2008, 09:37:52 AM »



Please document your statement that Hitler died a Christian.

OswqaldTheOsprey

Don't forget, you judge a man by what he does and how he behaves and the principles he expouses.  Hitler's actions, policies and goals were athiesm/materialism and social Darwinism to the extreme.  He promoted a pure genetic line,  he advocated for extermination of inferior genetic lines.  His view was that only Arian people should one day dominate the entire world.

Great point, RF. Actions speak louder than words.

OswaldTheOsprey




Yes, you judge a person by his works:

That's why Hitler, Moses, Samson and the God of the Bible are judged to be inhumane murderers.

I'm glad we have cleared that up.
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« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2008, 11:26:24 AM »

General Patton, you must excuse my ignorance, there must be an intellectual quality to your work that simply goes over my head. Perhaps when, like you, I have studied at the fashion houses of Madrid, Paris and Milan I will stop accusing the emperor of nudity and start to appreciate the skill of his tailor.


You followed that up with... more garbage about religion being responsible for morality   totally negating personal responsibility in following law.


Meanwhile what Rich actually said was……

It was neither a history lesson or a morality lesson, merely a demonstration as to the fallacy that religion is responsible for morality.

The key word here is fallacy

Should you have been too busy to look it up, it means: misleading notion or erroneous belief… A man of your heavy weight intellect no doubt knows this but just in case you are unsure I will recap my.... errr, what was the term you used for it…ah yes

pathetic thesis

My 'pathetic thesis' was… Drum roll….“The bible is not the source of human morality.”

I am so glad we agree on that….

Ps thank you for the intellectual and polite welcome you have given me, it is so nice to see you practice what you preach as both a Christian and a moderator.
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« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2008, 12:04:07 PM »

Since we all agree that a person is judged by their actions, I might add:

Hitler killed how many people?  Personally, I don't know of any. But his total was around the 10 million all told?

Satan: 10 people

God: 2,270,971+  (Though, to be fair many of those were killed by people God ordered to kill them)

So, God was less affective than Hitler, especially since God was trying to rid the world of sinful people, whereas Hitler was trying to rid the world of Jews.  Hitler almost reached his goal - God failed miserably.

The guy who comes off looking best is Satan, at 10 people. A common serial killer.

Nothing like the magnificent moral degenerates, Hitler and God.
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\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
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