Fredledingue
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« on: September 17, 2007, 01:50:39 PM » |
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IMO they are going to lose as Congo has never paid prior debt and business always plagued by corruption. [sound=tamtam] Chinese are in for the long run and for the long loss too. [/sound] China loans DR Congo five billion dollars
- China signed a deal here Monday to loan the mineral-rich Democratic Republic of Congo five billion dollars (3.6 billion euros) to build up infrastructure and develop its mining industry.
Three billion dollars will build 2,000 miles (3,200 kilometres) of railway between Sakania in the south and Matadi in the west, as well as a 2,000 mile road linking Kisangani in the northeast and Kasumbalesa in the south.
A motorway will also be built between Lubumbashi, capital of southern Katanga province, and Kasumbalesa, a major customs point on the border with Zambia, within 36 months, Congolese Infrastructure Minister Pierre Lumbi said.
Beijing's money will also pay for 31 hospitals, 145 health centres, two large international-standard universities and 5,000 government housing units. ===> Oh Yeah, as if the whites haven't tried to build that before. full article here |
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« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 01:58:33 PM by Fredledingue »
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Cryptomaniac
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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2007, 06:57:30 PM » |
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On the old IAP site, I started a similar thread about Chinese investment in Africa (in general).
I actually have a different view of it. To me, this is a potentially huge victory for China. While they may not see that money again - the influence they have in the region will increase substantially. Indeed, the US did the same thing when helping to rebuild post-war Europe and Japan. I doubt that we were actually "repaid" for all that we helped to rebuild, but our influence in Europe and Japan rose immediately. We continue to see benefits as Europe and Japan are friendly to us and generally side with us on global issues.
A few billion dollars potentially lost is probably insignificant when weighed against the political benefits that may arise.
It is my opinion that the US should be doing this kind of work in Africa right now. It is not a hopeless place. In fact, to me, few regions on Earth have as much promise. There is enormous human potential in Africa and a huge number of people that would be welcome as friends. A small amount of money can make a world of difference in Africa and if America misses out, China will not. Goodwill goes a long ways - and China is making its presence known.
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neorealist
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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2007, 08:35:44 PM » |
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On the old IAP site, I started a similar thread about Chinese investment in Africa (in general).
I actually have a different view of it. To me, this is a potentially huge victory for China. While they may not see that money again - the influence they have in the region will increase substantially. Indeed, the US did the same thing when helping to rebuild post-war Europe and Japan. I doubt that we were actually "repaid" for all that we helped to rebuild, but our influence in Europe and Japan rose immediately. We continue to see benefits as Europe and Japan are friendly to us and generally side with us on global issues.
A few billion dollars potentially lost is probably insignificant when weighed against the political benefits that may arise.
It is my opinion that the US should be doing this kind of work in Africa right now. It is not a hopeless place. In fact, to me, few regions on Earth have as much promise. There is enormous human potential in Africa and a huge number of people that would be welcome as friends. A small amount of money can make a world of difference in Africa and if America misses out, China will not. Goodwill goes a long ways - and China is making its presence known.
crypto we've been sending USAID to Africa for decades. |
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Major Zee Lee
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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2007, 02:03:25 AM » |
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On the old IAP site, I started a similar thread about Chinese investment in Africa (in general).
I actually have a different view of it. To me, this is a potentially huge victory for China. While they may not see that money again - the influence they have in the region will increase substantially. Indeed, the US did the same thing when helping to rebuild post-war Europe and Japan. I doubt that we were actually "repaid" for all that we helped to rebuild, but our influence in Europe and Japan rose immediately. We continue to see benefits as Europe and Japan are friendly to us and generally side with us on global issues.
A few billion dollars potentially lost is probably insignificant when weighed against the political benefits that may arise.
It is my opinion that the US should be doing this kind of work in Africa right now. It is not a hopeless place. In fact, to me, few regions on Earth have as much promise. There is enormous human potential in Africa and a huge number of people that would be welcome as friends. A small amount of money can make a world of difference in Africa and if America misses out, China will not. Goodwill goes a long ways - and China is making its presence known.
crypto we've been sending USAID to Africa for decades. US Aid is not money. PROC is not USA. And lost or not lost, China is stepping into Africa... |
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gommi
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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2007, 05:23:07 AM » |
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Africa will undoubtedly become a new source of cheap labor, perhaps first for China's manufacturers.
It would be best however if developed nations merely offer aid, rather than establish themselves in Africa, because doing so would be negatively impacting on native businesses and enterprises.
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« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 05:25:08 AM by gommi »
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Cryptomaniac
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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2007, 06:27:24 PM » |
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crypto we've been sending USAID to Africa for decades.
We certainly have. But I think we could and should do more. We need to work very hard (in my opinion) on health and education in Africa. It seems like these are the two areas most severely lacking right now. Shipping tons of food to Africa (while helpful) seems to be more of a treatment than a cure. Indeed, we have sent an enormous amount of aid to Africa over the past few decades. But, it seems like Africa is still in terrible shape for the most part. If the populations are not educated or healthy, they cannot thrive economically. And that economic vitality is what is needed to end the mass poverty there once and for all. I suppose that is a great topic for another thread: Should we be looking for a quick fix or a permanent one? I would imagine that they look very different. A quick fix will probably diminish suffering more in the beginning, but it will be unsustainable as the population continues to grow. A permanent fix will be slower to develop and indeed may acually appear to be failing at first, but as the years tick away, it will actually surpass the effectiveness of the quick-fix paradigm. In regards to China, I think we need to be cautious that we aren't "made obsolete" in the eyes of Africans because we aren't as visible as the Chinese. I don't mean to suggest we should only help so the Chinese don't steal our influence - just that this should be a wakeup call to get ourselves in gear and be on the forefront of helping Africa emerge as a successful region of the world. |
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gommi
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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2007, 07:31:36 PM » |
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Africa needs to be able to support its own public health and education programs by the use of its economy. The first and most vital policy is to promote the development of native businesses so as money can be extracted from them and invested in the public welfare.
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Niklas
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« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2007, 11:09:42 AM » |
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I am quite sure that the US will not let Africa fall into a Chinese sphere of influence, hopefully this move by China will trigger some kind of chain reaction, making the US and/or the EU invest more in Africa.
Well, maybe not the EU, but atleast the US.
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tadpol
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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2007, 11:55:58 AM » |
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I am quite sure that the US will not let Africa fall into a Chinese sphere of influence, hopefully this move by China will trigger some kind of chain reaction, making the US and/or the EU invest more in Africa.
Well, maybe not the EU, but atleast the US.
I'm not. I think China's Africa campaign is a Great Game move while the western world has stopped playing in the interests of globalism and getting reelected. I'd say China giving infrastructure while the US gives food is terribly telling about the long term. Africa has the natural resources China will be hurting for in a few decades when it's manufacturing REALLY takes off, and with programs like these the people in power in a few decades will have nothing but good will for the Chinese. |
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Mugabes my hero
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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2007, 03:36:21 AM » |
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Here’s the fundamental problems with devolved countries lending developing countries money, there are always strings attached which is problematic. What usually happens is the country lending the money will say " here’s the money, we will lend it to you if we think you are able to pay it back AND if trade with our country in this particular good. They then impose trade on these countries that for one the industry isn’t subsided heavily hence giving them an unfair advantage and what usually ends up is that particular industry is that is has to trade in the global market but is subsequently unable to provide for the local market(eg grain traded out but not reaching local market).
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2007, 12:22:39 PM » |
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On the old IAP site, I started a similar thread about Chinese investment in Africa (in general).
I actually have a different view of it. To me, this is a potentially huge victory for China. While they may not see that money again - the influence they have in the region will increase substantially. Africa is a huge continent with huge differences between each areas. Investing in Sudan, where there is plenty of oil will certainly pay off. Other region oif Africa like Senegal and north-west Africa are booming with tourism from euyrope and a new economy. But Congo, it's another story. Belgium has been doing exactyely that before ww2: Building roads, electric lines, schools etc, just to be kicked out and called dirty greedy colonizers. Under the rule of Mobutu Seseko, a sort of Africa's Saddam Hussein, the economic and infrastructure deteriorated year by year and all the whites left the country because there were no business to do there anymore. Since his death, there has been countinuous civil war, no working democracy and no will at all to rebuild the country if you still call that a country. It has been on of the rare region of the world with negative growth. Now if the Chinese want to go through the same experiment, please, we won't stop them or try to concurence them. In 20 years congolese will call Chinese dirty greedy (neo)colonialist. ... despite all the schools, hospitals and roads they will have build. Not that congolese are ungrateful, but the Chinese will be working with a ruling elite which doesn't represent the poeple and with tribes which are at war with other tribes. It's even worse than Iraq as rebuilding is concerned. Hopefuly, congolese will evoluate but the aid they will recieve before they have learned by themselves how to grow a sustainable economy and peaceful environement will be fruitless. Better throwing $100 notes over the jungle. At least Tarzan will make a useful usage of it when he comes to NY-City.  |
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pepe
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2007, 07:47:21 AM » |
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On the old IAP site, I started a similar thread about Chinese investment in Africa (in general).
I actually have a different view of it. To me, this is a potentially huge victory for China. While they may not see that money again - the influence they have in the region will increase substantially. Africa is a huge continent with huge differences between each areas. Investing in Sudan, where there is plenty of oil will certainly pay off. Other region oif Africa like Senegal and north-west Africa are booming with tourism from euyrope and a new economy. But Congo, it's another story. Belgium has been doing exactyely that before ww2: Building roads, electric lines, schools etc, just to be kicked out and called dirty greedy colonizers. Under the rule of Mobutu Seseko, a sort of Africa's Saddam Hussein, the economic and infrastructure deteriorated year by year and all the whites left the country because there were no business to do there anymore. Since his death, there has been countinuous civil war, no working democracy and no will at all to rebuild the country if you still call that a country. It has been on of the rare region of the world with negative growth. Now if the Chinese want to go through the same experiment, please, we won't stop them or try to concurence them. In 20 years congolese will call Chinese dirty greedy (neo)colonialist. ... despite all the schools, hospitals and roads they will have build. Not that congolese are ungrateful, but the Chinese will be working with a ruling elite which doesn't represent the poeple and with tribes which are at war with other tribes. It's even worse than Iraq as rebuilding is concerned. Hopefuly, congolese will evoluate but the aid they will recieve before they have learned by themselves how to grow a sustainable economy and peaceful environement will be fruitless. Better throwing $100 notes over the jungle. At least Tarzan will make a useful usage of it when he comes to NY-City. part of the reason that Congo might dislike Belgium is because 10's of millions of its people died working in rubber plantations. |
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2007, 02:24:40 PM » |
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No it's not the reason because that's BS. Even if it was true it would not be the reason.
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coppergoose
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« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2008, 12:42:28 AM » |
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No it's not the reason because that's BS. Even if it was true it would not be the reason. Hi all, I'm new here and making my first post. BTW, have a great 2008. I guess the former poster meant the late French Colonial Masters in "Indochine" (Malaysia, Vietnam etc.) regarding the rubber plantations. IMO Fred is right for his statement concerning the RDC and Belgium, the old master. On the other hand, China is not Belgium and will not try to interfere in Congo's internal affairs. Just getting in to buy the minerals and resources like copper, and no questions asked. If the Congolese mess it up later, China wouldn't care much. If, on the other hand the RDC would use the investments wisely (one can dream, not?), the PRC would find a great ally in a country with huge resources and potential. |
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2008, 05:13:39 PM » |
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Hi! Welcome to IAP! And thanks for your coment. Sure China is not Belgium and 2008 is not 1858 or even 1958. But congo is still congo. |
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Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!) |
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