Quite so Ahk, and as I have believed all along.. you have to let the fledgling government have a fighting chance (why we are training army and police) as well as providing people the necessary infrastructure (hearts and minds) to give themselves an opportunity to make their own roadmap. A lot of countries now are assisting the Karzai government at his request. It is the right thing to do.

Unlike Iraq (the extended version, not the initial assault against a despot).

-Terry

Having provided me with some IMHO excellent analysis and opinion from a political and military perspective , how does one deal with very basic changes in the underlying culture which is almost totally Islamic?  And not only Muslim, but  one that enforces Sharia  where much of the population has no power past those possibly who participated in the "purple finger exercise" of their own accord rather than being ordered to participate and vote for the choice of the still very in control patriarchal culture.

I have at times provided some minor support by purchasing products that go to support RAWA. While I am not so naive to suggest that all Afghani women are
downtrodden, uneducated or personally abused, I never fail to be not only surprised, but at times shocked by the information provided on their site here:

http://www.rawa.org/women.php

How do either of you suggest, not ignoring the concept of culture lag, while still in the midst of war, as you state and I accept, of at least 30 years,  an establishment of a central and stable government might be accomplished in what remains a tribal culture of both ethnic and religious divisions?  Calling Karzai, the Mayor of Kabul is not an unrealistic description.

While I haven't a clue about either of your educational nor personal backgrounds, mine has a focus on Applied Anthropology. As a consequence I
well understand the concept of introducing cultural change  and the dangers involved. Are factors now controlled by Western powers exhibited by those who are occupying Afghanistan, actually considering  the basics of the underlying culture in the process of the military occupation? The U.S. military has a long history of ignoring the culture of occupied nations.  Or is the occupation self serving in the attempt to provide Western control of a nation as a necessary requirement for eventual hegemony in the region?

Early on with the invasion such cultural considerations were hardly the  case when foodstuffs were air dropped for starving Afghans that made them physically ill and cluster bombs were mistaken for food as the color and packaging were quite similar causing considerable injury. 

Terry, btw, one of the  horrific examples of a well motivated, but highly destructive  aspect of applied anthropology is to be found should you be interested in "Steel Axes For Stone Age Australians." The PDF is here:

http://www.anthroprof.org/documents/Docs102/102articles/steelAxes.pdf 

Sometimes the most well meaning and highly motivated attempts at improvements by Western standards may in different circumstances create a
situation worse than what  might already exist.  I'm not convinced the occupation of Afghanistan can be described as "well meaning" though neither of you have used that terminology it was IMO included in your statements.

BTW, has there ever been a history of a "peaceful" Afghanistan?

 



 

Cass,

Both the leader and the people of Afghanistan have a right to determine their own future and have asked for outside help in removing insurgent terrorists. A lot of countries have complied with that request, and I believe for the right reasons.



Now, for the .pdf file on the disintegration of the aboriginal by the influx of white culture. I believe that you could say the same things about any primitives that have come into contact with the 'white man'. Look no further than the American Indians as well, and their current problems with alcohol and gambling as petrol (gasoline) and glue sniffing among the most isolated Abo's (as aboriginals are colloquially referred to).

BTW, it is estimated that 95% of Aboriginals are of diluted (with white) blood to some degree. You might be lucky enough to find close to a real Aboriginal community in the Pibarra region in far west Australia, but I doubt it. The official standard to receive government benefits is 16% Aboriginal blood. The young are the most abusive of these 'rights' given to them. The Tribal Elders view them with disdain.

Mostly the Aboriginals seek government housing, cars, and money.. all of which are destroyed or misused.
They hold their 'corrobories' at frequent times and sometimes claim public land based on bones found.. some of which have turned out to be chicken bones or wild animal bones. It is a mess, and I understand the new Rudd government (Labor Party) will issue them an apology when Parliament first meets.


-Terry

delegitimizing the enemy by externalizing it. Here's something that an Afghan OFFICIAL (Karzai's official) has to say:

""The Taliban, at first, were students -- Afghan students who traditionally wanted to study theology. In the beginning, they were a group of Afghans who had very good intentions after five years of anarchy in Afghanistan -- they just wanted to bring peace to Afghanistan. They were very popular. Then this movement was somehow hijacked by Pakistani intelligence services and by international terrorist groups.""

On the complex composition of Taliban:

""Now when we talk about the Taliban, we are talking about a kind of amalgam of different forces, such as people who are unhappy about government forces because they can’t find their place in the present confederation of Afghan policies; people who are committed to other interests -- foreign interests, mainly from the Pakistani circle; and there are people with the fundamentalist ideology of the international Islamic movements. "The Taliban" is a composite of these components... the Taliban is a composite group.""

On conditional nature of the "Taliban" label:

"" the armed opposition -- globally, people call them Taliban. ""

On "Taliban" as local clans who were deprived of influence by Karzai's clan:

" all people are not Al-Qaeda, [or] Islamic fundamentalists, [or] genuine Taliban. There are people who just want to play a role in Afghan politics and they want to play this role through violent means.""

"...to distinguish these three groups. Al-Qaeda is a group -- with them you can’t reach any constructive result through dialogue... Another group -- which is led by foreign interests in Afghanistan -- to deal with them is very easy: You just go to the source of their power, their financing,...The third group is genuine Afghans who lost their way in different circumstances throughout history.

So as long as we don’t differentiate [among these] three components of this big entity that we call the Taliban, we won’t get very far in solving the current military situation in Afghanistan.""

On "Afghan army":

"..In five years, we have been unable to [create] a reliable Afghan National Army.."

On the number of armed opposition:

""...at worst, there are maybe 2,000 or 3,000 people."

http://afghanobserver.com/Articles/Taher_Manalai.html

How many times I said all that stuff about different forces behind the label of "Taliban".

So "Taliban" are not Paki criminals who have only one way to escape prison: attack satellite-guided army in a neighbouring state. And the "Afghan army", counting...what was it last time?...60 000? 80?...After 6 years can't do goddam thing with the 3 000 ("at worst") bare-ass tribesmen using 30 y.o. weapons. Only one way to deal with all that: keep reiterating foreing belonging of the enemy.

Cassandra:  Didn't mean to step on your toes.  I did check out the RAWA site.  The women have it pretty rough.  I was glad to see that they are working hard to make some changes.  If I ever see RAWA products I will buy them.  I've read most of your posts and its true that I don't agree with too much.  I like reading them, though.  You are smart, defend your positions and write well, better than most.  I would never accuse you of being a cluless, lefty college student.

I'm retired AF, too.  We do agree wholeheartedly on my son ever needing an air evac.

Thanks,

Big Bear

NOTE TO Ahk.  You're a moderator here.  How many expletive deleted times do I need to sign in when I come on-line here to post? OT, but I sign in, but  receive messages again and again telling me I need to sign in before I'm allowed to post.

It is more than frustrating!

Pisces,

You know damn well what the Taliban and Ql Qaeda are. Don't let your MOSSAD status try to lead us by deception mate! 


regards
Terry