yilmaz101
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« on: January 30, 2008, 01:57:47 AM » |
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The US has more or less has come to an impasse regarding Iraq. It has come to a point where it is obvious that the US can't bear the cost of stayin in Iraq, as things are, much longer. The sheer human cost, (4000 KIA and roughly about 40.000 injured or maimed, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi casualties) makes the job of the new administrtaion difficult as far as continued invasion of Iraq. On the other han it is clearly obvious that the US does not have (nor has had at any time) a clearly defined exit strategy.
The question that I am wondering is: Will the US eventually pull out? When will it pull out? What will happen in the aftermath? Any ideas?
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2008, 03:03:18 AM » |
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Yes, and in 2008 there will be a drawdown of forces from 160,000 to 50,000 troops left at the request of the Iraqi government. They will be there to provide training, help in the hot spots, and to support the Iraqi government until they can enforce their own rule of law and stand on their own two feet so to speak.
If the Democrats win the U.S. national election, we may see a different timetable or in the numbers of troops left, if any.
-Terry
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
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yilmaz101
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« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2008, 04:17:50 AM » |
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Which Iraqi government (authority)? The one representing the Kurds, the Shia or the Sunnis? I guess the drawdown will in effect only serve to escalate sectarian fighting. I think that too early a withdrawl by the US will only help Sadr. My biggest fear is a divided Iraq and a premature disengagement by the US will in effect guarantee that outcome.
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yilmaz101
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« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2008, 04:31:26 AM » |
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Of course, any inervention into Iraq by the moderate Muslim nations will further destablize it? Who do you suggest step in? Egypt, it is far too Sunni and Arab to be accepted. Turkey would be refused by the Shia for being Sunni, by the Kurds for being Turks etc. etc. etc. Maybe we could ask Indonesia and Malaysia to step up? By the way is there any nation that is willing to touch it with a ten foot pole? Which Iraqi government (authority)? The one representing the Kurds, the Shia or the Sunnis? I guess the drawdown will in effect only serve to escalate sectarian fighting. I think that too early a withdrawl by the US will only help Sadr. My biggest fear is a divided Iraq and a premature disengagement by the US will in effect guarantee that outcome.
That is why it is a phased withdrawal. How about some of your moderate Islamic nations stepping up to the plate? I'll tell you why. They don't want to touch it with a ten metre barge pole! 
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yilmaz101
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« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2008, 04:38:00 AM » |
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You said moderate ISLAMIC nations, not Arab. Since Turkey is not an Arab nation it's presence in an Arab nation like Iraq will be a challange to Arab nationalism, it will be resisted by Arabs and Kurds because Turkey is the old landlord. Unfortunately, the U.S. is stuck with it for the time being. All other nations wimp out. And I said MODERATE Arab nation. Why not Turkey? Why not? 
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yilmaz101
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« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2008, 05:21:16 AM » |
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Tribalism? Do you even have a clue about what you are talking about? Turks are not another Arab tribe. They are a wholly different national and racial entity. We are a mongoloid race that has descended from Central Asia, you know like the nomads of the steppes...........
We have been living in and around Asia Minor for the past millenia, have established a couple of empires based in Anatolia with many other lesser states and empires throughout Eurasia in the said time period. We have a very old history with other ethnic, national and racial entities in this geography.
If you knew anything about the ME you'd understand why every single Arab state would object to Turkish presence in their soveigrn soil. And cut the bs about tribal feuds.
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yilmaz101
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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2008, 08:46:28 AM » |
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You seem to be stuck in that frame of mind. That all issues relating to the ME is rooted in tribalism. What you fail to grasp is that first of all is that the history of the place is as old as history because that's where civilization was born and secondly people there have long memories. The silent animosity between the Shia and the rest of the Muslims is about 1300 years old. That is over a millenia and I can understand that it is difficult to grasp the significance of such issues for someone whose concept of national history is only, what? 300 years. What happenned during the course of WWI between Turks and Arabs is something that is ingrained in the cultures of both sides. Turks see it as the Arab betrayel. In Hejaz, Yemen, Palestine and Iraq hundreds of thousands of our troops were killed by Arabs in uprisings. The whole eppisode is called the "Arab backstabbing" in Turkish folklore. Arabs have similar feelings about Turks.... Do you think that Turkey would be welcomed in Iraq, or Syria, or somewhere else.... A little touchy yilmaz?  .. and yes, tribalism. I note you did not address the rest of the post. Why is that?
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yilmaz101
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2008, 10:21:20 AM » |
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Yup, we were the barbarians. for defending our own homeland against an invader from the other side of the globe. Sorry pal. We lost 150 thousand dead in the Dardanelles. Forgive me for not having compassion for the ANZACS who travelled all the way across the globe to die in a war that had nothing at all to do with them.
You should test your knowledge of history on your own. The fact that you don't even know anything about the war in which you lost ancestors is proof enough of your take on history.
Good day to you too mate.
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Patton
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2008, 10:40:25 AM » |
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Perhaps "tribalism" refers to the nomadic Arab "tribes" or "clans" that existed in the ME portion of the Ottoman Empire....however....they were not Turks....and the Turks did not have much control over these regions of their own Empire....much like Pakistan has no real control over it's FATA province......
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Cassandra
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2008, 12:08:20 PM » |
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Perhaps the easiest question anywhere on this board to answer with a single word one. Badly.
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\"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.\" Sinclair Lewis
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2008, 01:21:36 PM » |
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The amerians will have to pull out whether because they can't bear the human cost or because the situation is back to stable.
But the question is not to be asked to George W. Bush or to us in the West, but to the Iraqis: Are they done with killing each others or was 2 millions dead in a decade (10% of the population) not enough yet for them, and they want even more of it? It realy depends on what the Iraqis want. If they want peace, a militia like Sadr's won't have much success even with all the US forces out.
IMO Bush has pumped everything the US had in matter of energy and volonteering for this war and the US economy needs an urgent cut in spending which will have to translate in fewer army personel based abroad.
One thing is sure: The americans don't risk anything if they wthdraw. They are not in an impasse: They can sent all their men home tomorrow morning and nothing bad will happen for them. For Iraqis it's qnother story, but not our problem anymore in this case.
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« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 01:24:05 PM by Fredledingue »
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 Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!) 
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2008, 01:26:53 PM » |
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Agreed Fred. Iraq is way past its 'use by' date.  -Terry
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman
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micfranklin
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2008, 01:28:18 PM » |
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If we pull out now we'll be cutting our losses and preventing further ones. Maybe the Iraqi people will also step up and defend their own country.
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Patton
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2008, 02:47:39 PM » |
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IMO Bush has pumped everything the US had in matter of energy and volonteering for this war and the US economy needs an urgent cut in spending which will have to translate in fewer army personel based abroad. If you are familiar with my posts on the similarities we share with the British occupation of Mesopotamia after WWI, you will see we suffer from the same domestic issues they did that precipitated their complete withdrawal of the Middle East knowing that perhaps they were sitting on the worlds largest oil reserves....but even that knowledge could not keep them there because after 4 years of the bloodiest war the world had ever seen and an additional 3-4 years of occupation...the British people were spent....they wanted their troops home and wanted to stop the economic hemhorrage required by a foreign occupation. I think it is "circle the wagons" time in America.
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2008, 10:32:27 AM » |
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If we pull out now we'll be cutting our losses and preventing further ones. Maybe the Iraqi people will also step up and defend their own country.
I agree, thought it's unclear what so-called Iraqis mean by their own countryOil should stop being a reason for war and should be a reason for peace: Community leaders of Iraq have to understand that another war would disrupt both oil supply and oil revenue distribution and that peace will instead increase them. An US withrawal will have the merit to force Iraqis leaders to tqke responsability for their own country. PattonI haven't had the time to read your post on british occupation but it's interrresting to see that History is repeating. Here, however I don't think that domestic issues are as severe as to justify a military pull back. IMO the Iraq War is weighting on the economy more or at least as much as the subprime crisis. And if you include the oil price surge caused by this war then the negative effect is at least twice as important. The US has spent too much money in Iraq with very minimal economical or technological feedback.
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 Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!) 
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