yilmaz101
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« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2008, 01:52:11 PM » |
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The question that begs to be asked is: What Iraqi leaders? The Shia clerics, like Sadr? Or the Kurds, Barzani and Talabani? Do you think that they could establish a feasible central government in Iraq? Or are we looking at a three way split, in which case I expect more fighting between the factions for territory. Also creation or existance of a failed state in the ME will be the US's and in general the West's problem as much as it will be the ME's and Iraq's problem...... If we pull out now we'll be cutting our losses and preventing further ones. Maybe the Iraqi people will also step up and defend their own country.
I agree, thought it's unclear what so-called Iraqis mean by their own countryOil should stop being a reason for war and should be a reason for peace: Community leaders of Iraq have to understand that another war would disrupt both oil supply and oil revenue distribution and that peace will instead increase them. An US withrawal will have the merit to force Iraqis leaders to tqke responsability for their own country. PattonI haven't had the time to read your post on british occupation but it's interrresting to see that History is repeating. Here, however I don't think that domestic issues are as severe as to justify a military pull back. IMO the Iraq War is weighting on the economy more or at least as much as the subprime crisis. And if you include the oil price surge caused by this war then the negative effect is at least twice as important. The US has spent too much money in Iraq with very minimal economical or technological feedback. |
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Patton
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2008, 02:31:21 PM » |
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Whatever the final result is to be...I hope Western Imperial powers do not draw the lines in the sand or we are no better off than the mandates post-WWI.......and we see how well those have worked.
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2008, 02:35:17 PM » |
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Yes I do think that a tri-ethnic Iraq is still feasable. Why not?
Even with Sadr, thought other shiite leader could be more popular than him.
They all have to understand that peaceful negociations even slow ones, are preferable to an endless war with no winner and no loser, no victory and no abdication possible.
That sharing the pie is better than destroy it in an attempt to have all of it.
And the populations should learn that there is no shame and no betrayal in signing an agreement with rival communities, that even if this agreement is slightly unfair, it's much better than mutual genocide.
Once they understand that, tolerating their religious differences will be much easier.
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 Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!)  |
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2008, 02:59:49 PM » |
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Yes I do think that a tri-ethnic Iraq is still feasable. Why not?
Even with Sadr, thought other shiite leader could be more popular than him.
They all have to understand that peaceful negociations even slow ones, are preferable to an endless war with no winner and no loser, no victory and no abdication possible.
That sharing the pie is better than destroy it in an attempt to have all of it.
And the populations should learn that there is no shame and no betrayal in signing an agreement with rival communities, that even if this agreement is slightly unfair, it's much better than mutual genocide.
Once they understand that, tolerating their religious differences will be much easier.
Fred, I've always thought that a defacto tripartite Iraq should become official, with three parties in a national government making mutual decisions involving the whole of Iraq. -Terry |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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machioveli
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« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2008, 02:20:58 AM » |
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The only way it will end on a good note is if we erase all borders and the world becomes 1 country, governed by 1 leader (yep that ain't happening). But I do think there is hope for Iraq and its people. I don't think anyone can question whether they are better off now than before the invasion. And if you think they are not, then why are terrorist mostly going after the civilian population there now. The Iraqis want to live a life free of extremist but I am afraid that without international help, thats not going to happen.
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2008, 11:58:18 AM » |
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machioveli
Sure, Iraq needs the internqtionql help in the short term but let's not forget that they are also potentialy the 4th largest global oil exporter and that they should have enough revenues to auto-finance.
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Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!) |
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machioveli
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« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2008, 01:56:51 PM » |
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machioveli
Sure, Iraq needs the internqtionql help in the short term but let's not forget that they are also potentialy the 4th largest global oil exporter and that they should have enough revenues to auto-finance.
True. The thing that sickens me is the Iraqi governing body. They are heavily protected by Coalition troops and they know that. So they go on daily arguing over pathetic power struggles instead of compromising for the good of the Iraqi people and while our troops continue to die to keep thier government in tact. I am a republican, but I do think that a date needs to be set for a troop draw down, I feel if the Iraqi government feels thier time is running out, a lot of things will get done quickly. |
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2008, 02:49:44 PM » |
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don't think anyone can question whether they are better off now than before the invasion. indeed. Especially those 300 000, 500 000, or, as some studies suggest, 1 200 000 Iraqis who were totally liberated. There are lots of dead people who definitely are better off now than before. Life is full of problems. There are also many who lost their limbs, and several million who lost their relatives. There are some 200 000 orphans who are better off without their parents. And BTW, there are 4 million refugees, officially. Lost their homes, possessions, and often family members. I guess it all can be spinned somehow to prove that some people are better off without legs( u know, a guy was barred from running contests because his protesis gave him unfair advantage), others are better off without parents, still others are way better off dead. I think spinmasters akin Limbaugh and O'Really? can prove that. if you think they are not, then why are terrorist mostly going after the civilian population Wahhabis will blow Shiites up whether Iraq is under American or Iranian occupation, democracy or theocracy. They will be even more motivated to "go after civilian population" if Americans are changed to Iranians. Nothing to do with "better of" at all. When Iraq is under Iranian rule, and Wahhabis ("al Qaeda") rips its ass to blow the Imam Hussein mosque and stuff like never before, will u take this as an indicator that Iraqis are "better off" under Iranian troops? Will u say that terrorists are targetting (pro-)Iranians because terrorists don't want to see democratic Iraq and free Middle East and stuff? |
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2008, 04:33:14 PM » |
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Pisces,
You are actually right ATM about the Wahabi's and Al Qaeda, though you forget there is a massive operation with combined Iraq and US troops in the northern part of Iraq to finish them off.
After the foreign forces leave, which won't be for a long time, the Wahabi Al Qaeda bunch will be non-players.
-Terry
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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machioveli
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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2008, 05:41:26 PM » |
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don't think anyone can question whether they are better off now than before the invasion. indeed. Especially those 300 000, 500 000, or, as some studies suggest, 1 200 000 Iraqis who were totally liberated. There are lots of dead people who definitely are better off now than before. Life is full of problems. There are also many who lost their limbs, and several million who lost their relatives. There are some 200 000 orphans who are better off without their parents. And BTW, there are 4 million refugees, officially. Lost their homes, possessions, and often family members. I guess it all can be spinned somehow to prove that some people are better off without legs( u know, a guy was barred from running contests because his protesis gave him unfair advantage), others are better off without parents, still others are way better off dead. I think spinmasters akin Limbaugh and O'Really? can prove that. if you think they are not, then why are terrorist mostly going after the civilian population Wahhabis will blow Shiites up whether Iraq is under American or Iranian occupation, democracy or theocracy. They will be even more motivated to "go after civilian population" if Americans are changed to Iranians. Nothing to do with "better of" at all. When Iraq is under Iranian rule, and Wahhabis ("al Qaeda") rips its ass to blow the Imam Hussein mosque and stuff like never before, will u take this as an indicator that Iraqis are "better off" under Iranian troops? Will u say that terrorists are targetting (pro-)Iranians because terrorists don't want to see democratic Iraq and free Middle East and stuff? where do you live? and what suggestions do you have? All I hear is you complaining about what people are going through. Its easy to complain, how about sugesting a solution in some of your post sometimes, or do you even have a brain to think that way? |
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2008, 05:44:52 PM » |
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machioveli, He lives in Israel, and is a MOSSAD agent. He is very capable when he is not spreading deception.  -Terry |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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machioveli
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« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2008, 05:50:52 PM » |
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machioveli, He lives in Israel, and is a MOSSAD agent. He is very capable when he is not spreading deception. -Terry And I am President George W. Bush......until proven otherwise |
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2008, 06:06:19 PM » |
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machioveli, He lives in Israel, and is a MOSSAD agent. He is very capable when he is not spreading deception. -Terry And I am President George W. Bush......until proven otherwise He has never denied it, I know. You can believe what you want, I gave you the facts. YP, not MP. Proof you won't get, not unless you are in the know. I am. .. it doesn't bother me either way, you were the one that asked, you deal with it, K? -Terry |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2008, 07:47:21 PM » |
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where do you live? and what suggestions do you have? i live in Canada. I have following suggestions: - renounce openly your policy of regime-change. Make it clear, especially to the regimes concerned, that the US is not pursuing to depose regimes in Iran, Syria, North Korea, possibly other places. - open channels of communications with Iranians and Syrians. High level. Work towards a deal of the kind that u brushed away when it was proposed by Tehran in 2003 (I think it was May 2003 or June, soon after the Iraq affair. We have discussed that here.) - pressure Israel to get the hell out of the land that doesn't belong to it. West Bank, East Jerusalem, Golans, Shebaa. Within the framework of peace accord. Land for peace. Old old thing. (eh, forget this one, that's impossible that the US would ever use its aid as a lever on Israel. AIPAC.) - start taking tough with the House of Saud. Saudi clerics keep blasting the Shiite as infidels and sending "martyrs" to blow Shiite mosques and markets. House of Saud has plenty of influence over the clergy. Once Syrians get their land back, and Iranians get guarantees against unprovoked aggression (and regime-change), and once the Palestinian issue starts moving, the entire region will look a much healthier patient. Start working on these ones, and I'll keep providing good counsel. There is no magic solution to Iraqi troubles, surely not without rapprochements with Iran and Syria. |
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2008, 09:20:34 PM » |
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where do you live? and what suggestions do you have? i live in Canada. I have following suggestions: - renounce openly your policy of regime-change. Make it clear, especially to the regimes concerned, that the US is not pursuing to depose regimes in Iran, Syria, North Korea, possibly other places. - open channels of communications with Iranians and Syrians. High level. Work towards a deal of the kind that u brushed away when it was proposed by Tehran in 2003 (I think it was May 2003 or June, soon after the Iraq affair. We have discussed that here.) - pressure Israel to get the hell out of the land that doesn't belong to it. West Bank, East Jerusalem, Golans, Shebaa. Within the framework of peace accord. Land for peace. Old old thing. (eh, forget this one, that's impossible that the US would ever use its aid as a lever on Israel. AIPAC.) - start taking tough with the House of Saud. Saudi clerics keep blasting the Shiite as infidels and sending "martyrs" to blow Shiite mosques and markets. House of Saud has plenty of influence over the clergy. Once Syrians get their land back, and Iranians get guarantees against unprovoked aggression (and regime-change), and once the Palestinian issue starts moving, the entire region will look a much healthier patient. Start working on these ones, and I'll keep providing good counsel. There is no magic solution to Iraqi troubles, surely not without rapprochements with Iran and Syria. Pisces, Quit the MOSSAD deception Bullsheit, or do I expose more of your organization? Your boss is probably pleased by you adhering to your motto,"By Deception We Shall Win". You know there is a reason I refer to you as "Pisces" and it isn't the constellations either.  Regards Brother Terry |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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